Logic Studio

[amplayer]

If it's stable too, they've got my money!

Is Logic 7 stable enough? If not, I doubt the new program would be better since it seems to be a superset of the old one.

[pbognar]

Why? Their already the same price or cheaper, and Sonar users in particular already have everything Logics offering with a $100.00 upgrade coming in Sonar 7 soon without buying new hardware . Logic was the most expensive host app out there, now they came down to reality. While the value is nice with the included instruments and all, most people have better 3rd party stuff by now. This "value" of added stuff will mainly benifit new users and people crossing over to a Mac to buffer the over priced hadware shock. Like a lot of PC users, this offer isn't luring enough for a couple of reasons, Logic doesn't appeal to most of us to begin with and nor does Apple hardware. The only lure I see here is Logic PC holdouts and new users and Mac Logic users.

 

 

You make some excellent points, regarding people who are already firmly entrenched in full-featured Windows based DAW with plug-ins. These people have taken the time to learn / embrace / utilize their software and hardware - so why should they jump to another app on a different hardware platform?

 

The only lure I see here is Logic PC holdouts and new users and Mac Logic users

Yes, I am a Logic PC hold out, and I have not invested in a $500 DAW yet. I have only "invested" in Cakewalk MC3 and Jamstix so far...

 

The "new user" market - this is a big deal, especially considering the "Garage Band" phenomenon. Who else is looking at the "new user" market? Especially those who can get instant gratification and professional sounding results, even if thy don't have musical skills. I hear a lot more people around me talking about Garage Band than Acid. And if they do have musical talent or skills, they are more likely to upgrade to Logic 8.

 

I think people using other DAW's on the Mac will take note as well - just my opinion.

 

Regarding Sonar 7, I can't help but feel that Cakewalk has to be feeling some new pressure. I know people who have left Sonar to go to "less bloated" apps with better work flow, praising what they see in Logic 8. Are they Logic refugees - I don't know... Personally, after playing with MC3, I thought that Sonar was beginning to make sense to me.

 

I know all too well the feeling about the "over-priced" Mac hardware, what with the daunting task of putting out my feelers to look for one myself.

 

But I think total cost of ownership has to be looked at, as well as standardization. Consumer Reports seems to think they are the way to go in terms of support, etc. Plus they sure seem to hold their value compared to PC's.

 

Logic doesn't appeal to most of us to begin with

I'm not sure who you are speaking for, but a lot of people were pretty happy when it was Emagic on 2 platforms.

 

In addition, the changes to the "skin" which has placed on the underlying application, as well as changes in terminology and work flow appear (to me at least) to address any lingering funny taste. The environment window concept was something I never really wanted to have to deal with. It's still there if you want it, but it looks like most people will never have to deal at that - unless they want to.

 

Yes, I'm having an emotional reaction to L8. It looks fun. It looks powerful. It looks simple now. It looks like everything is included. It reminds me of the excitement I felt with the Emagic programs when they first came out.

 

Pete

[blue2blue]

Looks like they've played a pretty good game of catch-up, adding a lot of the features other DAWs have had for some time, which had been eyebrow-raisers to a Logic thread lurker like me.

 

As others have noted, the Environment and multiple detail screens are still there, for the most part, so we can presume they haven't diminished the power and flexibility that many touted.

 

If they've tamed the stability issues, I'd say they have a real winner.

 

 

PS... It does look like things may not be entirely bump-free, not surprisingly. For instance, according to FXpansion, Apple didn't supply betas to third party developers until yesterday, and they reverted to a deprecated AU standard for multi-output plug-ins that had been fixed in L7.2 but now is back in use in L8. It may not affect all multi-out plugs -- but it does affect the multi-out version of BFD and Guru. You can read more about it here, in a thread just started listing plug issues with L8: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic-8-special-one-month-forum-new-release/144463-logic-8-au-plugin-compatability-list.html

[Anderton]

The proof is in the using, but I must say, that's a lot of value and must be very reassuring to fans of Logic Pro who were concerned that Apple was going to abandon them in favor of iStuff.

[therage57]

Why? Their already the same price or cheaper, and Sonar users in particular already have everything Logics offering with a $100.00 upgrade coming in Sonar 7 soon without buying new hardware .

Sonar 7 upgrade for $100?

I paid $180 upgrading from 4 to 5.

I had no idea Cake has set upgrade prices for 7. I haven't seen any mention of this on the Cakewalk forum.

Now with Reaper in the picture upgrades for $180 are becoming a big problem.

[dahkter]

Tracktion to me is the king of the single-window interface, interesting to see Logic adopting that approach.
My main gripe with Logic and Cubase was the number of menu options and screens, definitely killed my creativity...

[blue2blue]

Sonar 7 upgrade for $100? I paid $180 upgrading from 4 to 5. I had no idea Cake has set upgrade prices for 7. I haven't seen any mention of this on the Cakewalk forum. Now with Reaper in the picture upgrades for $180 are becoming a big problem.

 

I suspect that's the Sonar standard upgrade -- which has traditionally been in the $90 range, while the extras-added Producer has been about $100 more (and usually worth the extra $100, to my thinking, due to the quality of the extras.)

 

Sonar's yearly upgrades (like clockwork in this century) might seem an onerous burden if you had to stay upgraded -- but their tradional upgrade path has not (or barely) penalized those who wait two or even three years in between upgrades.

 

 

Sonar Pro's list price is around a thousand, but it always has seemed to be available at steep discounts, typically around $600 for the full extras package new, where Logic's old price didn't seem to be discounted often or much.

 

The $500 buy-in is a smart move, I think, since there has appeared to be a lot of interest in Logic from Mac-using Pro Toolers. I think there's a real psychological barrier for a $1000 software package. Notice they're keeping the upgrade price relatively high -- but this upgrade isn't just a fix-it, it really appears to push the Logic platform forward while hopefully retaining the older modalities that long time users are not just accustomed to but by which many swear.

 

I noted as I was poking around the web that there's some disappointment that there's not a ping-loopback calibration utility for outboard hardware routing -- and also that some Logic users have experienced shifting track misalignment times.

 

[re: track misalignment/hardware latency: My two interfaces appear to have the same track misalignment at all times [at a given sample rate] but I did have a USB mic that had distinctly shifting track misalignment times. Clearly, this is an issue which is slowly but surely coming to a boil. As someone who has used a DAW since 1996, I find it just about stupefying that many DAW developers are only now stepping up to the fact that the DAW is, in all practicality, the only place where problems with driver latency misreporting can effectively be adjusted for. CW's Sonar is usually pretty pro-active. But it was only version 6 (soon to be replaced) which gave us even a rudimentary misalignment offset.]

[Geoff Grace]

 

The proof is in the using, but I must say, that's a lot of value and must be very reassuring to fans of Logic Pro who were concerned that Apple was going to abandon them in favor of iStuff.

 

 

Even though Logic hasn't been my main DAW since 1997, I'm looking forward at some point to using it more often; and I'm glad that Apple is continuing Logic development. They just did a lot to make Logic easier to use too -- both the production templates feature and the new MainStage application promise to make setup a breeze. As someone who appreciates the power of the Environment window but not the time consumption of setting it up, I think Logic may have gone from worst to first in this area.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[blue2blue]

From talking to folks around here [that is, my neck of the 3DW], the Genius Bar (I do love the name) is often a mixed bag. I hear a lot of my 3DW friends who tend to sniff at the genii there... that said, I think it's great that there's at least someplace where folks have at least a stab at getting help with problems that doesn't cost an Applecare subscription to get in the door. And for the hapless PC user, there's often little recourse. I know there are a lot of people out there who simply go out and buy a new computer when something fixable goes wrong. I know at least a couple. Hell, I've felt like it once or twice...

[Anderton]

Actually the list price of Sonar Pro 7 will be $619, same as for Sonar 6.

As to the single-window interface, seems like someone's been paying attention to the considerably success of Ableton Live

[spokenward]

I was thinking that the single window interface might also owe a little something to these guys.

 

I think that Apple's marketing is pretty interesting on this product. When you go to a warehouse store you will encounter those really oversized poly security boxes. The point obviously is making something too big to steal. That's what Apple did. They put enough value in the box that you have to say - hey, uh, this is cheap. I think I want that. But you need all this other stuff to remake your musical life - like a new Mac and a cinema display or a 17" MBP. Then they got ya. They quit telling you how much something costs in the hope of discovering how much you will pay.

[the stranger]

Actually the list price of Sonar Pro 7 will be $619, same as for Sonar 6. As to the single-window interface, seems like someone's been paying attention to the considerably success of Ableton Live

"considerably to the success of" or "to the considerable success of"



Feel like your at work?

[amplayer]

 

I think that Apple's marketing is pretty interesting on this product. When you go to a warehouse store you will encounter those really oversized poly security boxes. The point obviously is making something too big to steal. That's what Apple did. They put enough value in the box that you have to say - hey, uh, this is cheap. I think I want that. But you need all this other stuff to remake your musical life - like a new Mac and a cinema display or a 17" MBP. Then they got ya. They quit telling you how much something costs in the hope of discovering how much you will pay.

 

 

No arguments there. I wonder how well a dual G5 will run Logic Studio... Apparently, if I want Logic Studio, a Mac Pro is in my future, the cost of which far exceeds the cost of Logic Pro.

Nevertheless, they have made Logic Studio so fully featured, that there are only a handful of software apps I currently own that I will continue to need. That is pretty compelling.

[blue2blue]

Actually the list price of Sonar Pro 7 will be $619, same as for Sonar 6. As to the single-window interface, seems like someone's been paying attention to the considerably success of Ableton Live

Damn... you appear to be right!

 

How on earth did I get the idea the list had crept up to the thousand range, I wonder? I thought for sure I'd seen Sonar Pro full ed. selling for about $600 at discount. Doesn't sound like early onset Alzheimer's... exactly.

[pbognar]

Any early indication of the stability of Logic Studio?

 

I'm torn between upgrading from Music Creator 3 to Sonar 7 PE for $449 versus upgrading my old Emagic Logic Audio Gold to Studio for $199. Yes, I know I'll have to buy a Mac (Probably start with a Mac Mini for $599).

 

I'm sure that both Sonar 7 and Logic 8 stack up pretty well against each other, but I after the Logic Studio announcement, what with them throwing in everything they offered, in terms of effect/synth plugs, a sampler, all the Apple loops, the editor, etc. I was a little disappointed that Cakewalk was including only LE versions of Dimension and Rapture. And then, they offered upgrades to the Pro versions the very month they released Sonar 7.

 

Anyone have experience with both Sonar and Logic to be able to put things into perspective?

 

I'm starting to sell gear which I use infrequently to be able to afford to buy a Mac Mini if I have to. If I go the Sonar route, it will offset the upgrade expense.

 

Are any of you Emagic refugees tempted to go to Mac platform at this point? Was Apple successful in their make-over of Logic?

 

For me, I'd be happy to never have to deal with the Environment screen. And there seems to be a "Fun Factor" included in Logic Studio. Seams like you can use it like Garage Band one day, and a pro DAW the next.

 

That said it would seem to me that Cakewalk would have the edge for support.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Pete

[fabian s]

 

Any early indication of the stability of Logic Studio?

 

 

It is stable for me (as was 6, I skipped 7) but there are some annoying bugs that will drive me back to Protools for the time being.

 

I am running Logic 8 on a G4 Powerbook, perhaps it is better on an Intel processor Mac?

[pbognar]

It is stable for me (as was 6, I skipped 7) but there are some annoying bugs that will drive me back to Protools for the time being. I am running Logic 8 on a G4 Powerbook, perhaps it is better on an Intel processor Mac?

 

 

From the little I've read, it seems you want at least a dual G5 and preferably an Intel Dual Core based system.

[Rabid]

Any early indication of the stability of Logic Studio? I'm torn between upgrading from Music Creator 3 to Sonar 7 PE for $449 versus upgrading my old Emagic Logic Audio Gold to Studio for $199. ..... Any thoughts? Pete

 

 

What do you already have in the way of instruments? If you have NI Komplete or something close then the Logic instruments are not as much of an issue. If you have a collection of Acid loops then Sonar can put them to good use. If you have nothing at all I Think Logic has an edge in included instruments and Sonar PE has an edge in effects. (JMHO) Garageband can be a great, quick starting point when putting together a song and when you are ready the song will open in Logic. Project5 can do the same thing for Sonar but is an extra cost and it is a much more complex program. I like it for making loops. There seem to be more computer tutorials available for Logic. Cakewalk has the best customer service by far. The Cakewalk forums are much easier to use than the Apple forums.

 

The best for you will probably be decided over workflow. I've used the Cakewalk line since Cakewalk vs. 1 and it seems natural for me. Picking up Logic was difficult. It has a step learning curve and I only got it about 10 months ago. Right now if I had to choose it would still be Sonar. That may change when I get my upgrades in and become more familiar with Logic.

[Rabid]

One more thing, don't expect to be happy running Logic 8 on a $599 MacMini. I tried it with Logic 7. You have to upgrade memory and that is not easy. The graphics card is not the best if you want a large, hi-res monitor which DAW's beg for. You are going to run out of HD space quick. Remember, Logic and it's components must be installed on the boot drive and the MacMini comes with a small boot drive. From day one you are going to be cramped for space. You are better off getting an external Firewire drive and booting off of that when you run Logic, but then you could have issues if you also get a firewire sound card.

Taking the MacMini into consideration you would be better off running Sonar on a PC of simular cost than Logic on a low end MacMini. The cost of the MacMini + extra memory + external boot drive + sound card will be over $1000 and you can get a nice Windows music machine for that which is further expandable.

[pbognar]

One more thing, don't expect to be happy running Logic 8 on a $599 MacMini. I tried it with Logic 7. You have to upgrade memory and that is not easy. The graphics card is not the best if you want a large, hi-res monitor which DAW's beg for. You are going to run out of HD space quick. Remember, Logic and it's components must be installed on the boot drive and the MacMini comes with a small boot drive. From day one you are going to be cramped for space. You are better off getting an external Firewire drive and booting off of that when you run Logic, but then you could have issues if you also get a firewire sound card. Taking the MacMini into consideration you would be better off running Sonar on a PC of simular cost than Logic on a low end MacMini. The cost of the MacMini + extra memory + external boot drive + sound card will be over $1000 and you can get a nice Windows music machine for that which is further expandable.

 

 

Yeah, I've pretty much only got Music Creator 3 and Jamstix 2. I have no investment instruments or loop content.

 

I figure with the simplified face of Logic Studio, and me not being totally familiar with Sonar, it' a horse a piece from the learning stand point.

 

I did figure that with the Mac Mini, I'd have to go with 2G and a large primary drive to start with and then a USB or Firewire drive for audio. But, you can also run XP on it.

 

On the Sonar front, I am also considering getting Home Studio 6 XL and adding on as needed. I was hoping that Sonar 7 PE was going to be a all inclusive slam dunk. We'll see - maybe they will have some monthly special or a special upgrade.

 

I'm on the fence.

[gdoubleyou]

One more thing, don't expect to be happy running Logic 8 on a $599 MacMini. I tried it with Logic 7. You have to upgrade memory and that is not easy. The graphics card is not the best if you want a large, hi-res monitor which DAW's beg for. You are going to run out of HD space quick. Remember, Logic and it's components must be installed on the boot drive and the MacMini comes with a small boot drive. From day one you are going to be cramped for space. You are better off getting an external Firewire drive and booting off of that when you run Logic, but then you could have issues if you also get a firewire sound card. Taking the MacMini into consideration you would be better off running Sonar on a PC of simular cost than Logic on a low end MacMini. The cost of the MacMini + extra memory + external boot drive + sound card will be over $1000 and you can get a nice Windows music machine for that which is further expandable.

I'm doing fine on my Core duo mini, sessions of 32-48 tracks no problems so far with logic8, it's rock solid. It's just a repackaged Macbook, the Core2duo machines are more powerful than the last batch of dual G5 Powermacs.

It even works fine on my now ancient 1GHz Powerbook, but i do have to freeze tracks to conserve CPU.

I do boot the mini from a 7200rpm 500GB external drive for a little extra performance boost.

[pbognar]

I'm doing fine on my Core duo mini, sessions of 32-48 tracks no problems so far with logic8, it's rock solid. It's just a repackaged Macbook, the Core2duo machines are more powerful than the last batch of dual G5 Powermacs. It even works fine on my now ancient 1GHz Powerbook, but i do have to freeze tracks to conserve CPU. I do boot the mini from a 7200rpm 500GB external drive for a little extra performance boost.

Finally, some good news from someone running Logic Studio on a Mini

Are you using a Mini with Core duo or Core 2 duo?

Are you running 2G?

What kind of audio/MIDI interface are you running?

What brand/model of external drive are you using, and did you have to install Logic Studio to that drive or to the internal drive?

Thanks

[amplayer]

I'm doing fine on my Core duo mini, sessions of 32-48 tracks no problems so far with logic8, it's rock solid. It's just a repackaged Macbook, the Core2duo machines are more powerful than the last batch of dual G5 Powermacs. It even works fine on my now ancient 1GHz Powerbook, but i do have to freeze tracks to conserve CPU. I do boot the mini from a 7200rpm 500GB external drive for a little extra performance boost.

How many licenses does Apple allow with Logic 8?

[pbognar]

I keep reading about those saying what you can't do.... use usb interface or hd for recording, daisy chain fw devices, record on your internal, ahhhh, use a mini.... One would think that if you are using Apple's dongle for the rest of us (a Mac) and "their" software yThen I read about those who do all those can't things and everything works quite well for them.

I'm finding the same in my research. Some people can run it on their G4's although slowly, others have problems with dual G5's. You'd get more consistent performance reports.

I'd like to think that a 2G Mac Mini, with nothing else installed, but Logic Studio would run fine. But there are still 2 variables to make it a real music machine - the audio/MIDI interface and a second drive for audio.

Man - reality strikes - it really *IS* going to be like $1000 to get hardware to run my inexpensive $199 upgrade to Logic Studio.

Life does suck.

Maybe Cakewalk will show me some love and make it irresistible to upgrade to Sonar 7. Seems like the total cost of ownership might be better. Although, I'm still not happy with the LE versus Pro versions of synth plugs they are offering.

[gdoubleyou]

Its a core duo mini.

Apple allows installation on two machines.