Members blue2blue Posted September 20, 2007 Members Share Posted September 20, 2007 I'm trying to learn how to craft unassailable statements. I'm also trying not to appear to be arguing against Dean's assertions, since I certainly agree with much of what he says. I guess my point (should I ever meander around to it) is something along the lines of: It's possible to be a hard-headed realist and still view the world as a place of profound and endless mystery, beauty, joy, and sorrow. Beyond that... well... are matters of faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tedster Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Actually, that's not the case. Existing religions, unlike a potential super-being, can be measured and studied and their validity can be judged on facts. You can trace the evolution of, for instance, Christianity and see that it's hardly something handed down from God, but just a derivation of what what came before it, and that was a derivation of what came before it, and so on. It's changed radically since it was initially created even, by humans. It's just a mythology like any other. What I was saying is that since what is "true" can't be measured, the likelihood of any given "mythology, philosophy, idea" or whatever approximating what actually is true is also immeasurable, even if it appears to come from humans. Just like seeing some lady on the street and saying to yourself, "I believe she's wearing pink "hello kitty" underwear". You can believe it...which neither makes it true nor false. It's immeasurable. Unless she flashes you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tedster Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 As far as we know, common sense and causality stop just beyond yonder bend in the universe... I believe that's where this guy lives:And this guy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 It's possible to be a hard-headed realist and still view the world as a place of profound and endless mystery, beauty, joy, and sorrow. Absolutely. Richard Feynman, the well known physicist, is often quoted about a story that he told. He said that an artist friend of his complained that science took the mystery and beauty out of things, out of a flower for instance. And Feynman said, no, it adds to it. I can appreciate it on the same level as you, just to see it's beauty and be amazed by it, PLUS I can understand how it works and how it evolved and that makes my appreciation of the mystery and beauty of it even deeper. I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's basically the jist of it. I agree with that wholeheartedly. Just like seeing some lady on the street and saying to yourself, "I believe she's wearing pink "hello kitty" underwear". You can believe it...which neither makes it true nor false. It's immeasurable. Unless she flashes you. Being a rationalist type, I'd feel that it was my responsibility to find out. It's a dangerious experiment to attempt, but someone has to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 IOW, I have a problem with people flying planes into buildings as a part of their faith, just as I have a problem with people blowing up abortion clinics as a part of their faith, or practicing human sacrifice as a part of their faith... I do, too, But, if you take the stand that you don't need to rationally justify your beliefs, then they don't have to rationally justify theirs either. Fair is fair. You can't allow it only when it suits your own purposes. That's the danger inherent in such beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 ...Being a rationalist type, I'd feel that it was my responsibility to find out. It's a dangerious experiment to attempt, but someone has to do it. You might well be boldly going where no man has gone before... The Feynman story gets it for me, too. For every little pet mystery we have to give up to cold reality (and I do miss the sense that deja vus were somehow profound and mysterious), bigger, more profound mysteries seem to open up in front of us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 I'm trying to learn how to craft unassailable statements. If you discover this, can you clue me in on this? I promise I won't publicly debate with you. Much.I'm fried from lack of sleep, but I gotta say, there's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread to munch on!! I'll definitely have to return to this and read it when I'm a bit more coherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 So I saw the kid today. His mother came by to pick up her other son, who also attends our school. I saw my student in the back. It was really great to see him. It's been maybe about 5-6 days since the surgery, I think. He's not on painkillers. His mom said that he was off them a couple of days after the surgery, I think. Anyway, we were all pleasantly surprised at how calm he looked. He definitely did not look like he was in any pain, and he looked like his usual happy self!! It was strange to see him without his leg, but we were all so happy to see him. We gave him this shirt that all the kids in my class had painted. On the front, it says "name of our school, with a really colorful design that all the kids painted. On the back, it's all color-coded with the students' names so you know who painted what. The mother liked the shirt. We gave it to the student. He held it briefly, and then stuffed it in his mouth. I'm sure his mother will have him wear it later!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Dean, two questions if I may:What caused the Big Bang?What came before it? who knows... but saying god did it is simply assuming the same as me saying it was a black hole of another universe did it as fact. god is simply a placeholder for most of humanity until things can be explained in laymans terms to them... or at least until logic and reason sets in for most of us... 29% of americans still support bush. for some people, logic and reason will never work for them regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 BTW, the book Genius, a biography of Richard Feynman, is a great book. He managed to be both a very powerful physicist and a very down to earth, non-nonsense kind of guy at the same time. Another very interesting book, which I just finsihed re-reading a couple weeks ago, is The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes. It really covers so well the whole thing, not just the technical issues but the history that lead up to it, the politics around it, the people involved, etc... It's a great book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super 8 Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Firstly,Ken, I'm sorry to hear about your student. But I'm certain that with good people around him like his family, friends, teachers like you, and maybe an occasional shirt in the mouth:thu:, he's going to make it through this fine. I'm touched by your compassion. You're a credit to your profession.I'm floored by the rest of the discussion in this thread. I wrestle with issues like these everyday, and I am frustrated that I cannot seem to wrap my head around them. I'm envious of those who can simply choose to believe or not believe and just leave it at that. Me, I'm stuck in purgatory, and I cannot figure my way out. I'm an agnostic. I cannot confirm or dismiss the existence of a divine creator. All I can say is that I truly hope and pray that there is a god, and that this god knows who I am, loves me, and is keeping score on those who do good works, or bring misery and suffering into this world. Faith can also fly planes into buildings, and it's just as valid as faith driving you to adopt a puppy. If you choose to base your life on a non-rational basis, you have to accept all the other non-rational folks out there, and you can't complain because their beliefs are just as valid as yours. I do not think this is true, Dean. Not all theologies are created equal, and one does not have to accept a poorly constructed theology. Sure, people can believe what they want, but in the end it's like the proverbial wise man and the foolish man. Only one man's house survives the test.I am aware of nothing in the Koran that permits muslims to fly planes into buildings and to indiscriminately kill innocent men, women, and children. From what I've read from Islamic theologians, Bin Laden and Al qaeda's justification for their actions is based upon certain texts within the Koran which hold up only if they are taken from their proper context and other scriptures are basically ignored.One person's theology is not as valid as the next. It needs to be based upon something firm. Therefore there is no reason to count all faiths as being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meriphew Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Dean, what about all the people who kill for reasons of love. Does that make love inherently evil? Does love even exist? Can love be proven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meriphew Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 I am aware of nothing in the Koran that permits muslims to fly planes into buildings and to indiscriminately kill innocent men, women, and children. From what I've read from Islamic theologians, Bin Laden and Al qaeda's justification for their actions is based upon certain texts within the Koran which hold up only if they are taken from their proper context and other scriptures are basically ignored. Yes, some people will interpret/twist a religion to suit their own needs, or to gain power, or even use it as a weapon. Those people are sick and demented. As a whole though, most religious people are good people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 My feeling is this: the word "God" is just an arbitrary word. You could call it "Fido" or "Spot", it doesn't matter.... There will always be a penumbra... a shadow band of knowledge which we don't understand, individually and collectively. This means that there's Something Bigger Than You, no matter who the "You" happens to be, whether a Richard Feyman or an Alfred E. Neuman. Few would deny we humans must live within Mother Nature a.k.a. "the biosphere". Already that is a Something Bigger Than We to which we must acquiesce. What I learned from working with many CP and autistic kids is: You can never tell what another person's quality-of-life is. Just because they can't see/hear/walk/write/talk etc., doesn't mean they don't enjoy their own unique quality-of-life. It may be as rich-- or richer-- than our own, those of us who imagine we have it "better". Every creature with a fleck of a spinal cord does the best he can, locomoting through this world of dualities. There is the old saying "God's eye is on the sparrow", which is a poetic way of saying the same thing. I think consciousness is like water: it rises to its own level within each person's "hardware" or physical apparatus. None of us is all-powerful, and none of us escapes the rigors and blessings of earthly existence. Every person's viewpoint-- his testimony, however relatively limited-- is therefore a valid one, like the old story of the six blind Parsees who walk up to feel the elephant. Just MHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 What learned from working with many CP and autistic kids is: You can never tell what another person's quality-of-life is. Just because they can't see/hear/walk/write/talk etc., doesn't mean they don't enjoy their own unique quality-of-life. It may be as rich-- or richer-- than our own, those of us who imagine we have it "better". This is such a beautiful point, Rasputin. We frequently judge others - CP, autistic, single older people, different people, etc. - by our own standards. But they may be enjoying their different way of life very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Yes, some people will interpret/twist a religion to suit their own needs, or to gain power, or even use it as a weapon. Those people are sick and demented. As a whole though, most religious people are good people. Yeah, I think that when you get people flying planes into buildings, the original tenets of the faith are grossly perverted!!! People often interpret things - laws, religion, teachings, statistics, articles - to their own needs and benefits, whether consciously or not. As you can tell by the hour of this post, I'm not sleeping again. Grrrrr.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Dean, what about all the people who kill for reasons of love. Does that make love inherently evil? Does love even exist? Can love be proven? love is merely a chemical reaction in the brain. religion is similar with the "god gene". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 love is merely a chemical reaction in the brain. So it's not a many-splendored thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 dopamine and oxytocin. "One chemical, oxytocin, plays an important role in romantic love as a sexual arousal hormone and makes women and men calmer and more sensitive to the feelings of others. Physical and emotional cues, processed through the brain, trigger the release of oxytocin. For example, a partner's voice, look or even a sexual thought can trigger its release. Attachment to someone has been linked to chemicals released from the brain known as endorphins that produce feelings of tranquility, reduced anxiety, and comfort. These chemicals are not as exciting as those released during the attraction stage, but they are more addictive and are part of what makes us want to keep being around that person we are in love with. In fact, the absence of these chemicals when we lose a loved one plays a part in why we feel so sad. Other research has shown that there are certain areas of the brain linked with being in love with someone. It is possible that our feelings for our partner are somehow stored in our brain. Researchers have found that when individuals are shown pictures of their loved ones, areas of the brain with a high concentration of receptors for dopamine are activated. Moreover, MRI images of the brains of these individuals showed that the brain pattern for romantic love overlapped patterns for sexual arousal, feelings of happiness, and cocaine-induced euphoria. This overlap and, at the same time, unique pattern indicates the complexity of the emotions that comprise romantic love " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Hmmmm....I thought love is like oxygen.I'm yankin' yer chain. I actually studied that for my psychology degree, with one of my professors saying something that, IIRC, was rather similar, much to the chagrin of some of the female students in the class!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 its funny, lsd can release the same "god like" chemicals within the brain. i have had "god like" experiences on it many times, but it still doesnt verify its actuality... but simply could be strange neuron firings on the brain. DNA's double helix design was discovered on LSD. im pretty sure most of the bible reads like an acid trip [ergot rye spores], burning bushes anyone? conversations with god? its pretty amazing what chemical and neurological firings in our brains leads us to believe/feel/etc... the question really is, what happens when those cease to exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prog Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 ... 29% of americans still support bush. for some people, logic and reason will never work for them regardless.I was wondering how long it was going to be for this to appear. OJ has a girlfriend. She doesn't support Bush. Neither does OJ. Logical and rational? As for the explanation of the "big picture", I doubt any human would understand the answer if it was explained to them. It would be like explaining the solar system to an ant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 21, 2007 Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 My feeling is this: the word "God" is just an arbitrary word. You could call it "Fido" or "Spot", it doesn't matter.... There will always be a penumbra... a shadow band of knowledge which we don't understand, individually and collectively. This means that there's Something Bigger Than You, no matter who the "You" happens to be, whether a Richard Feyman or an Alfred E. Neuman. Few would deny we humans must live within Mother Nature a.k.a. "the biosphere". Already that is a Something Bigger Than We to which we must acquiesce.What I learned from working with many CP and autistic kids is: You can never tell what another person's quality-of-life is. Just because they can't see/hear/walk/write/talk etc., doesn't mean they don't enjoy their own unique quality-of-life. It may be as rich-- or richer-- than our own, those of us who imagine we have it "better". Every creature with a fleck of a spinal cord does the best he can, locomoting through this world of dualities. There is the old saying "God's eye is on the sparrow", which is a poetic way of saying the same thing.I think consciousness is like water: it rises to its own level within each person's "hardware" or physical apparatus. None of us is all-powerful, and none of us escapes the rigors and blessings of earthly existence. Every person's viewpoint-- his testimony, however relatively limited-- is therefore a valid one, like the old story of the six blind Parsees who walk up to feel the elephant.Just MHO. Don't forget, Fido spelled backwards is Odif... Hmmm... that's not as profound as I thought it would be. Now, I suspect that what Dean was getting at with his comment that those who want the freedom to embrace a non-rational world view must also give the same freedom to others to embrace their own non-rational world views is simply another way of expressing the notion of separating religious from secular, social, governmental life that helped drive the founding of the US as a secular democracy. I think his point about flying planes into buildings and bombing abortion clinics was that, in a society which allows the freedom to adopt or not adopt non-rational world views, it must be secular law and ethical value systems (rather than parochial and arbitrary moral systems based on the specific teachings of any one or group of religoius doctrines) which is the arbiter of permissable behavior -- since it's pretty well impossible to weigh one non-rational system against another rationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 21, 2007 Right. And I did get what he was saying. And that, assuming that one adopts the view of all religion as non-rational, then yes, there's a point. But the departure point for me is whether people who fly planes into buildings are actually following a religion or perverting it. That's the distinction. However, I can see the global non-rational point of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 I do, too, But, if you take the stand that you don't need to rationally justify your beliefs, then they don't have to rationally justify theirs either. Fair is fair. You can't allow it only when it suits your own purposes. That's the danger inherent in such beliefs. Law of the jungle? Survival of the fittest? Anarchy rules? Does that mean that if I toss out any morality (which can be separate from religious beliefs), then if I am faster or stronger or smarter, can I just take whatever I want from anyone, or do whatever I want? Again, I support people's rights to believe whatever they want, but society still has to have limitations and rules - without them, there is no way to have a civilized society. If someone wants to believe that Jack (from the Jack In The Box commercials) is the supreme being in the universe, that's fine with me... but if Jack is telling them to kill everyone who believes differently, or to steal all the beef they can find and give it to him, then I take issue with it - not due to my differing beliefs, but due to the fact that doing so infringes upon the rights of others. Religion HAS been the root cause of a lot of suffering and strife throughout history, but not all religions support or encourage such strife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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