The 2008 Olympics in China just ended on Friday

[John Sayers]

May I suggest you read this wiki page on Tibet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#The_Dalai_Lama_Lineage

[UstadKhanAli]

Why don

[John Sayers]

Tibetans feel Tibet is an occupied country that the Chinese invaded and rule with rampant human rihts abuses, and is not part of China, which is of course contrary to what China says.

 

 

It's also contrary to what the historians say Ken. All governments recognise China's sovereignty over Tibet, including my own government.

 

The rave on the front page of the Friends of Tibet site makes some spurious statements which are all refuted in the Wiki article I posted for Gus and other articles I've posted on the subject.

 

The uprising in 59 was a CIA operation as no doubt is the current one. It's possible aim is to denigrate China's human rights record so the US can be seen as the good guy leading up to the Olympics in spite of it's disastrous record in Iraq. It could also be to split China and create mayhem in it's territories and hinder it's march to becoming a superpower which is happening faster than anyone ever imagined. Who knows what they are up to.

 

IMHO this affair is is bigger than you, me, Friends of Tibet, Richard Greer and the Dalai Lama mate.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Poor Tibetans, not only do they have the Chinese against them but also the Australians, but the good news are that the CIA is on their side

[Gus Lozada]

the Wiki article I posted for Gus

Oh, it was for me

Whoever is the "owner" of the land, killing people because of their beliefs and lifestyle is not a nice thing to do.

That goes for Bush, too. And the assholes out there in Palestina. And in Africa. And Everybody else.


So as I said, if Tibet is Xinxang -which is a part of china- then they are killing Chineses!! How is that??

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

So as I said, if Tibet is Xinxang -which is a part of china- then they are killing Chineses!! How is that??

 

 

That's AHA!!!

[Geoff Grace]

that was in 1991 Ken. May I ask, considering the US actions in Iraq, the theft of their oil, Abu Graib, Guantanamo Bay, the deaths of around 1 million Iraqis, the leaving of around 2 million to neighbouring countries, the forced resettlement of another 2 million within the country etc, from what moral high ground you are coming from??

 

 

Besides that fact that I strongly question whether Ken should be held responsible for those actions, what do they have to do with the price of tea -- or abuse of Tibetans -- in China? China's acts are wrong, regardless.

 

Nice potshot though, if you want to tell all of the US forum members here that you condemn each one of us.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Interesting news Geoff

I may pull some Chinese mercenaries together and occupy Australia, built a few roads and railways, I'm certain that would legitimate any action, and I mean, Australia was never an independent nation anyhow and their flag is a fake too

[John Sayers]

Angelo - Australia was first claimed by the Brits in 1770 and the first fleet arrived in 1778. It became a federation of states in 1901.

It was claimed as Terra Nullis - i.e. no one owned it. We have since accepted in law that the Aboriginals did own it. It's known as the Marbo Case.

China has never occupied Australia or classed it as it's territory.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Angelo - Australia was first claimed by the Brits in 1770 and the first fleet arrived in 1778. It became a federation of states in 1901. It was claimed as Terra Nullis - i.e. no one owned it. We have since accepted in law that the Aboriginals did own it. It's known as the Marbo Case. China has never occupied Australia or classed it as it's territory.

 

 

 

John,

 

don't worry, that all just paper work we may work out later, after we built some decent railroads and autobahns in this godforsaken place down there.

 

A simple blood test will be enough to proof that the Aboriginals are closer related to us Chinese then to the Brits.

[thefunkman]

From the Sydney editorial...

China is committed to developing Tibet, as proved by the brilliant railway it has built to Lhasa. The Tibetans would be wise to accept what has happened and get on with making a living.

Why do I feel like I'm sitting through a scene from Monty Python's 'Life of Brian...'

"ALL RIGHT, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us???" Ah, but man does not live by bread (and bullet trains) alone.



P.S.: My brother-in-law just got back from a trip of "company officials" to Shanghai and surroundings. At one point, a young female tour guide proudly mentioned that none of the magnificent skyscrapers they saw was there 20 years ago. Then she smugly added: that while other countries are ruled by rag-tag groups composed of hundreds of people, all of this was accomplished so quickly because they are ruled by one man. (And the trains no doubt run on time.) Then it was on to yet another all-you-can-eat & drink bacchanal and an "off the record" go-round with the comfort girls...

[deanmass]

Tibetians are in the weak position. China knows this, the WORLD knows this. Arguing details is pointless. It is up to China to do the right thing, take the high road. From everything I have seen, they have not done this ever in recent history.

For clarification on when to kill...

I am not watching anything related to the Olympics. Once again, the eyes of the world are on China, and they are acting cumulatively like a bunch of power mad ass clowns.

[John Sayers]

Besides that fact that I strongly question whether Ken should be held responsible for those actions, what do they have to do with the price of tea -- or abuse of Tibetans -- in China? China's acts are wrong, regardless. Nice potshot though, if you want to tell all of the US forum members here that you condemn each one of us. Best, Geoff

 

 

I really must reply to this, then I'll leave this thread alone.

 

yes - I condemn each and every one of us, The US, the UK and Australia, that's me! who as the coalition of the willing preemptively invaded a sovereign nation defying the ruling of the United Nations. We have occupied Iraq for 5 years now and have done NOTHING to improve the lot of the general Iraqis other than kill their friends and relatives in huge numbers and cause millions to flee the country. There is no power, no sanitation, no healthcare NOTHIN! it's a wasteland.

 

Until we get our house in order we have no moral right to start judging China and it's actions in Tibet, especially when you consider how ignorant most of us are as to the history and the reality of the situation in that country.

[Geoff Grace]

I have two problems with that philosophy, John. First, it judges those within each of our countries who actively opposed those actions the same as those who actively supported them.

 

And second, Stalin had little if any "moral high ground" over Hitler; but thank God the USSR fought Germany in World War II!

 

Senseless killing and subjugation must be opposed by anyone who is willing and able, and not just by the Mother Teresas of the world.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Philter]

 

I really must reply to this, then I'll leave this thread alone. yes - I condemn each and every one of us, The US, the UK and Australia, that's me! who as the coalition of the willing preemptively invaded a sovereign nation defying the ruling of the United Nations. We have occupied Iraq for 5 years now and have done NOTHING to improve the lot of the general Iraqis other than kill their friends and relatives in huge numbers and cause millions to flee the country. There is no power, no sanitation, no healthcare NOTHIN! it's a wasteland. Until we get our house in order we have no moral right to start judging China and it's actions in Tibet, especially when you consider how ignorant most of us are as to the history and the reality of the situation in that country.

 

 

That's a dodge if I ever heard one. I do what I can to survive and in the process do my small part to see our own nation act better. Just because I am not an armed revolutionary trying to take down the man doesn't mean I don't have a right to voice scorn when a totalitarian state brutally oppresses an invaded people. I'm not happy about Iraq or how we treated the Native Americans but that doesn't mean I can't voice my disgust with China's current behavior.

 

I would say I was going to boycott the Olympics but I wouldn't watch them anyway. I think losing the Olympics would be a small price for China to pay for their treatment of the Tibetans. I hope the Olympic committee is watching and I hope they're a little less morally ambidextrous in their judgements.

[UstadKhanAli]

It's also contrary to what the historians say Ken. All governments recognise China's sovereignty over Tibet, including my own government.

 

 

For the longest time, countries recognized Taiwan as the true China, ignoring Mainland China, or "Red China", as it was called at the time. Whether countries politically recognize a country or not does not change the fact that a country exists. Fact: Tibet was invaded by China in an inprovoked attack. You don't need any other fact than that.

 

Also, while I realize that you never bothered to reply to any of my refutations of your "facts"...your submission that China has improved Tibetan's lot in life is so completely wrong and off the mark, I wouldn't even know where to begin. But since you apparently only talk to Chinese people - and only in 1991 - and don't bother talking to Tibetans, I suppose it doesn't matter.

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-kurlantzick23mar23,0,1607628.story

 

This is an Op-Ed piece, which I'm sure you'll gleefully point out, but nevertheless checks several facts which are easily corroborated:

 

 

Meanwhile, for most Tibetans, the growth story remains a fantasy. With growing Chinese migration to Tibetan areas, Tibetans have been cut out of profitable businesses, including the tourist shops surrounding Lhasa's holiest sites. Unlike in other parts of China, in Tibetan regions, real private entrepreneurs have trouble launching companies because the state's hand remains so strong. Studies show that Tibetans have some of the highest poverty rates in China, as well as one of the lowest education and highest infant mortality levels. Religious and social repression in Tibet remains far more intense than in other parts of China, perhaps because Beijing fears an independence sentiment in Tibet that remains strong. Unlike in other parts of China, in Tibet even lay people are not always allowed to fully practice their faith. In some Tibetan regions, Chinese authorities force families to pull children out of religious education classes. Last year, according to the U.S. State Department's annual human rights report, Chinese authorities reportedly even arrested a number of Tibetan teenagers, including some as young as 14, just for calling for the return of the Dalai Lama. In jail, these children allegedly were beaten badly and subjected to electric shocks. Increasingly sophisticated, younger, urban Tibetans also have grown increasingly frustrated -- and even violent. As travel restrictions have loosened in China, more Tibetans have visited prosperous Chinese cities, returning home to confront their own lack of development. As a new train link to the rest of China brings more Chinese tourists and business people to Tibet, Tibetans worry that their culture and society will be destroyed, part of what the Dalai Lama has called "cultural genocide."

 

 

Anybody who thinks this train is China's attempt to improve Tibetan's lot in life is either deluded or just plain stupid. In fact, the train does just the opposite, and the Chinese know this. It's a way to get more Chinese - and Chinese supplies and weapons - up to Tibet, and get minerals and other things that are being mined back down. I mean, if Tibetans are getting such a great deal, why is it that they are all protesting?

 

Here...look at this:

http://www.savetibet.org/images/news/protestsmap2008.jpg

 

So you can go ahead and try and point fingers at everyone else as to why we shouldn't do anything. Apparently, if our governments have done some wrong, we're not allowed to comment on anyone else.

 

I call bull{censored}.

 

That's just some lame excuse for people to trumpet the nobility of inaction. Yeah. Whoo-hooo. Indeed, the only reason that democracies come close to working is due to checks and balances, of people able to freely voice dissent. Indeed, it may be the ONLY reason democracy ever comes close to working.

 

When I see something wrong, you can be damn sure that I will comment on it, and even try and do something, however small, to try and stop it, or at least comment on it publicly. Again, as I said before, I stand on no moral high ground. It's as simple as this: if I see something that seems completely wrong to me, I comment on it.

 

And everyone else can make up their own minds as to what is the right thing to do.

[Anderton]

IMHO this affair is is bigger than you, me, Friends of Tibet, Richard Greer and the Dalai Lama mate.

 

 

I do think there is some kind of behind-the-scenes power struggle, perhaps internal to China, perhaps with China in opposition to another country, that serves to complicate the issue. In other words, while I understand that the Tibetans have endured a history of being repressed, I can't help but think "why now?" It could just be "We're not going to take it anymore" but it could also be deeper, or something more sinister, like a CIA connection.

 

These kinds of issues are so vexing because they bring together moral opposites. For example, I don't think we should meddle in the affairs of a sovereign nation. But I also think we need to support people who are being wronged. Those are inherently contradictory, right off the bat.

 

And while the comparison to Iraq is a bit far-fetched, in another way it isn't: Superpower meddles in affairs of sovereign nation, in the name of "improving" the lot of the people, but harbors some kind of other agenda. In trying to "liberate" people who were wronged under Saddam, we've wronged a whole new bunch of people.

 

I don't know why Tibet is such an issue to the Chinese, why they just can't treat it like Hong Kong? Do they fear that the ideas espoused in Tibet regarding religious freedom might spread, and therefore must be suppressed? According to the Wikipedia article, there have been flare-ups in other provinces since Tibet blew up, so that might be part of it.

 

All I know for sure is that I don't know very much.

[UstadKhanAli]

Tibetians are in the weak position. China knows this, the WORLD knows this. Arguing details is pointless. It is up to China to do the right thing, take the high road. From everything I have seen, they have not done this ever in recent history. For clarification on when to kill ... I am not watching anything related to the Olympics. Once again, the eyes of the world are on China, and they are acting cumulatively like a bunch of power mad ass clowns.

 

 

The Olympics are going to be held in a country that disdains religious freedom, freedom of press, humane treatment of people, and has a lot of blood on their hands.

 

If Tibetans were truly getting a fair shake, would they be protesting en masse, outside and inside of Tibet? I've spoken to over two hundred Tibetans, Tibetans who lived inside Tibet, Tibetans who had relatives inside Tibet, and the atrocities that they tell would bring anyone to tears. We're watching genocide, both cultural and otherwise, occur before our very eyes. Just as in Xinjiang, Darfur, or Rwanda, Romania, Irian Jaya, Ethiopia, Germany or elsewhere before it, it's a consistent, calculated attempt to marginalize and kill a specific group of people.

[Anderton]

Just as in Xinjiang, Darfur, or Rwanda, Romania, Irian Jaya, Ethiopia, Germany or elsewhere before it, it's a consistent, calculated attempt to marginalize and kill a specific group of people.

 

 

Based on everything I've read and heard, I believe that is correct. What I don't understand is...why? What about the Tibetans is so threatening? Why were they invaded in the first place? Don't the Chinese realize that by giving the Tibetans some slack, then they will be able to accomplish what they want to accomplish--co-opt a country--without a backlash? It seems to me that if the Chinese did indeed improve the lot of the Tibetans without messing with their culture, the country would be, if not exactly grateful to the Chinese, would at least not be protesting and allow the Chinese to concentrate on other things. What benefits are derived from pissing off an entire country?!? I just don't "get" the Chinese thinking on this, which is why I think there might be some hidden agenda...what the Chinese are doing with Tibet makes no logical sense to me.

[flatfinger]

Why were they invaded in the first place? Don't the Chinese realize that by giving the Tibetans some slack, then they will be able to accomplish what they want to accomplish--co-opt a country--without a backlash?

 

 

Once a bully , always a bully

[UstadKhanAli]

What about the Tibetans is so threatening? Why were they invaded in the first place? Don't the Chinese realize that by giving the Tibetans some slack, then they will be able to accomplish what they want to accomplish--co-opt a country--without a backlash?

 

 

And it seems that, according to this Washington Post article, a group of 30 Chinese intellectuals would agree with you, as they have urged the Chinese government to rethink its response to protests:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/22/AR2008032201459.html

 

Why were they invaded in the first place?

 

* Many Chinese rulers believe that the first ruler to make China fully whole again will be hailed as one of the greatest leaders of China. Because historically Tibet changed hands numerous times between the Chinese, the Mongols, and the Tibetans, the rulers can reason that the acquisition of Tibet can make it whole. Then, all they need is Taiwan...it's literally an obsession of Chinese rulers to make China whole.

 

* Add to that Tibet's obvious militarily strategic region, where you are literally looking down on the rest of Asia, and you can see why China coveted Tibet, and has numerous nuclear warheads in Tibet. And I'll bet you're wondering what the Chinese do with all that radioactive waste. Glad you asked. China has been dumping nuclear waste on the Tibetan plateau, polluting the headwaters of many of Asia

[deanmass]

This is starting to really get under my skin.

Having sovereignty over a country does not justify murder, persecution, destruction of historical places, etc. These are closer to war crimes than an exercise in sovereignty. These are abuses against humanity, an entire culture, and their entire way of life and history. I would not go so far as to call it genocide, but it is skirting the edges of it.

Like others, I guess on top of the amazingly blatant obvious reasons NOT to treat Tibet ( or any other country) this way, I am baffled by the 'why' of it. What resources does Tibet have that China needs? I really think it is more or a show of power than anything else.

China is handling this wrong.

[John Sayers]

For the longest time, countries recognized Taiwan as the true China, ignoring Mainland China, or "Red China", as it was called at the time. Whether countries politically recognize a country or not does not change the fact that a country exists. Fact: Tibet was invaded by China in an inprovoked attack. You don't need any other fact than that..

 

 

OK let's go through the Tibetan "Facts" printed on the Los Angeles Friends of Tibet site:

 

My posts are from Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#The_Dalai_Lama_Lineage

 

Los Angeles Friends of Tibet say the following:

 

 

China began its occupation of Tibet in 1949. The Tibetan resistance to the Chinese occupation led to the National Uprising on March 10, 1959 and the flight of the XIV Dalai Lama into India

 

 

Wiki Says:

 

Main article: 1950-1951 invasion of Tibet

Neither the Republic of China nor the People's Republic of China have ever renounced China's claim to sovereignty over Tibet.[76]

 

Since the signing of the Seventeen Point Agreement in 1951, Tibet has been officially incorporated into China. According to this Agreement between the Tibetan and Chinese central governments, the Dalai Lama-ruled Tibetan area was supposed to be a highly autonomous area of China.

 

 

This 1951 agreement was initially put into effect in Central Tibet (Ch: Xizang). However, Eastern Kham and Amdo were considered by the Chinese to be outside the administration of the government of Tibet in Lhasa, and were thus treated like any other Chinese province with land redistribution implemented in full. Most lands were taken away from noblemen and monasteries and re-distributed to serfs. As a result, a rebellion led by noblemen and monasteries broke out in Amdo and eastern Kham in June 1956. The insurrection, supported by the American CIA, eventually spread to Lhasa. It was crushed by 1959. During this campaign, tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed. The 14th Dalai Lama and other government principals fled to exile in India, but isolated resistance continued in Tibet until 1972 when the CIA abruptly withdrew its support. After the Lhasa rebellion in 1959, the Chinese government lowered the level of autonomy of Central Tibet, and implemented full-scale land redistribution in all areas of Tibet.

 

Los Angeles Friends of Tibet says:

 

 

During the 20 years following the uprising, 1.2 million people-one fifth of the Tibetan population- died as a result of China

[Geoff Grace]

I really must reply to this, then I'll leave this thread alone.

Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in.

-- Michael Corleone

Hard to walk away, eh? Hey, we've all been there. I guess it's your turn.

John, even though I strongly disagree with you about several things you've written; I have compassion for what it feels like to take one the whole forum. I've been there myself with other issues.

I also have compassion for Ken. This is an issue in which he's invested not only his passion but a lot of his time and energy. He has family ties to China that may make this a more personal subject for him than for the rest of us, and I suppose Australia's proximity to China also makes this more personal for you.

In our focus on this issue, I think we've stopped focussing on each other. Maybe we should do both.

Best,

Geoff

[UstadKhanAli]

John, you still haven't addressed anything that I've supported in this thread, but instead have pulled things off the LA Friends of Tibet website. Each time I address things, you go and pull other things into the mix so as to keep the conversation bizarrely lopsided.

 

I already addressed the 1.2 million people, and as well, the population of Tibet, in which your figures are wrong. If you kill 1/5th of an entire population which is measured at over 9 million (when you consider all the areas that were considered Tibet, which I pulled straight from the source you're so fond of quoting, Wikipedia), you're right...that's MORE than 1.2 million. I stand corrected. And quite frankly, since we're talking about genocide, what does it {censored}ing matter whether it's 1.2 million, 1.4 million, 862,340, or what? I'm talking about genocide, and here you're arguing numbers.

 

If I am a country, and I claim that I have "not renounced my sovereignty" over another country but am NOT IN THE COUNTRY, does that mean that I truly have sovereignty over that country? And why do you keep parroting the PRC stance? You haven't answered that either. Almost everything you spout is something that the People's Republic of China say, and seeing as you are parroting something that is said by the 4th Worst Dictatorship in the World, you're not keeping very great company. I mean, you even parrot them by referring to Tibet as "Xizang". That's seriously embarrassing.

 

And finally, I ask again: if China's occupation is so great, then why is everyone revolting? Explain why they're dissatisfied. Explain why they have the highest rate of imprisonment of any kind of people within China (well, I know...they get arrested for carrying photos of the Dalai Lama around...). Why does China need tanks and heavily armed militia to "improve Tibetan's lot in life"? Why does China throw the press out of Tibet if what they're doing is so great? Why are Tibetans virtually barred from owning businesses in Lhasa? Why are they gunned down in broad daylight? Why are they tortured? Why is their religion being suppressed? Why don't they have freedom of speech? Why do Tibetans keep trying to escape? Why do they get gunned down when they try and escape if China is trying to "help them"? If this Great Leap Forward is so great, why are human rights sliding BACKWARD?