Members Electric Monk Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 So there's gonna be an Amplitube Fender released soon, and I'm dangerously close to getting it, but I wanted to hear what you folks had to say about computer-based modeling programs first. It sounds like a dream come true for me, a way to easily record guitar without unwanted hum on much, much higher-quality gear than I have now. But I've also heard that lag is a big problem, and that some of these programs aren't very convincing. I'm trying to decide between Amplitube Fender and Guitar Rig 3, or maybe Amplitube Hendrix. Anyone have any? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BeanoBoy Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have the Line 6 pod and the Line 6 Gearbox with Toneport interface. The Amp modelers save a lot of time and are reasonably close to the sounds they claim to be. If you're an effects junky, there are many to explore. In haven't noticed appreciable latency with the Gearbox software. Over time however, I've gravitated toward miking my Peavey Windsor combo or Vox AD15 . It takes a lot more time but I find the tones more inspiring. I run my mike into Toneport and pull up an appropriate modeled console, usually used for vocals, tweak a bit and come up with some cool tones. I have several boutique stomp boxes which really help as well. Planning on building a small isolation box to further explore amp miking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I've messed with just about all these programs, and I have to say that most are really, really good.. The Amplitube stuff is great, as is Revalver from Peavey.. The biggest issue with them is your hardware. I have a decent computer (Dell XPS 410, 2gb ram, X-Fi soundcard) and I can get the latency down pretty low, but it never works as well as when I play through my POD X3. It's like there is always a very short slap back echo (100ms or so) when I go through a software modeler. You can buy a better soundcard, but I'd rather just buy a hardware modeler, which is why I have a POD X3.. So yeah, with the right hardware, software modelers are awesome, but you better have a pretty hot computer to run them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Into Nation Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I use an EMU 0404 USB and have a relatively old PC, AMD 3800 X2 and don't have any latency issues using ASIO drivers. I have versions of Amplitube, Revalver and I've lost count of the others I've tried. I think they sound pretty darn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have Revalver and really didn't use it that long. In fact it's just taking up hard drive space at the moment. It's got a lot of sound possibilities but in the end they all sound like you are playing a recording and not the real thing. As Beno mentioned I found it really uninspiring and cold...even though your suppose to get all these great amp sounds. Just didn't respond like a real amp does....to pick dynamics etc... The latency thing was a bit irritating but it wasn't terrible. And my computer is not exactly the fastest thing available. I have heard you can get the latency to almost nil with tweaking and a good system. I don't know...I suppose they serve a purpose but I'd rather just play through my combo 15 w tube amp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members freternity Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have used GR3, Amplitube, Waves but still go back to my Line6 Flextone III amp. I plug direct into my soundcard via the amps stereo DI Outputs (which are crystal clear, big sounding). I think the other software sounds thin in comparison. The other plus is that you can control all the amps, cabs, mic's, fx through midi on your computer and Line 6's website has loads of downloadable amp settings. If you want an artist sound, search for it at Line 6, download it and you're good to go. Learn and share your guitar knowledge for FREE at: http://www.guitarfreternity.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fenderson Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think I have to go pee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashasha Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I've used just about everything out there at least once (usually a lot more) over the years and it's gotten a lot better. Some of it is still lacking in design or even because of the limitations inherent in software, but a lot of it is also down to the user to tweak and understand what they want and how to get it. I don't know how much it really helps, but I use a tube preamp before I go into my soundcard. To me it makes it sound a little warmer and a little more complex, but that could be part placebo/part just better signal. I do know that if you aren't using something that matches the impedance of the guitar correctly that you are going to get a poor quality signal into the application which pretty much kills any chance of quality. Another thing to take into consideration besides just pure speed in regards to latency is the processing power required to use these applications in hi-quality mode. Most of these apps will use lower bit depths and sample rates in order to decrease dropouts and glitches. If you optimize your system to have nothing running in the background and have a system fast enough to run these apps in hi-quality mode the sound improves drastically. I can't even imagine using them in standard mode because I've been spoiled at this point. As for the OP I'd recommend investing in a good soundcard that has reputable ASIO2.0 drivers. To me that means steering clear of anything by Creative Labs who has historically deveoloped their drivers out of ASIO spec and has created bloaty drivers that hog a ton of resources needlessly to increase it's apparent performance. I remember a few years ago that the Audigy series cards would inject null data into the memory address used for the second IDE controller to reserve the bus for itself. That's fine if you aren't using the second IDE controller, but if you were doing any kind of video capture or anything it would just destroy the video with dropouts and {censored} all over the place. Here is my list of pro's and con's for the common modelling apps out there: Guitar Rig 3: Easy, works relatively well, best integration for use with MIDI foot controllers, sounds decent, awesome tape deck with pitch shifting, tempo changing and tuning. It doesn't have the best models of everything out there, but can sound good with some tweaking. It's my app of choice most of the time. I don't have a million presets, but with some tweaking and stuff I've got a pretty nice range of extremely usable presets that really get the sounds that I want. The signal splitter and crossover splitter are really underutilized by most users. With that and some imagination and tweaking you can really dial in some great rigs. ReValver MKIII: I think that this has some of the most realistic feel and it has the deepest tweakability of anything out there. The amp selection isn't the greatest, but most everything you would need is available. Seems to be geared towards metal which isn't my thing. Uses Impulse Responses for the cabinets and mics so you can load any IR you can find in there. I can't figure out how to change presets with a MIDI controller, but most of the controls are MIDI controllable. No playback capability, but it does have a built in VST Host module so you could load any VST plugin into it anywhere in the chain. Waves GTR: Works well, has some great usable sounds, but it's all based on Paul Reed Smith's personal amp collection which means to me that it is kind of limited in the range of sounds. MIDI works decent, but I've run into problems with turning stomp boxes on and off, seems to be either just on or just off. No integrated playback either. Amplitube: Probably the biggest collection if you pay for all of the modules or versions. It works decent with MIDI if you get the X-Gear plugin, but same as Waves; it doesn't always work correctly with turning stomp boxes on and off. Has a very simple playback deck. I'm really tossed up on the sounds I've gotten with it, some of them seem really good, some seem pretty harsh and {censored}ty, but just when I say that it is pure crap I find something decent. The Hendrix edition had some of the best sounds I've heard from them, the Metal and standard ones were really unimpressive to me. It does have the ability to change the way the signal is routed within a preset which can be useful if you like parallel setups or signal splitting between pedals and amps and outboard effects, but I am a fan of series A>B>C so it doesn't do much for me. It gets pretty pricey to get the total package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members freetime Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm not a fan of amp modelers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blingdogg Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I tried Gearbox, Amplitube 2, Revalver MKII, Waves GTR3 and Guitar Rig 3. I love Amplitube the best. Highest quality, and all the features I need. Second place is Waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm not a fan of amp modelers How many have you used and which ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thom Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 Also not a huge fan of amp modelers. I use 'em to lay down ideas when -for whatever reason- I can't use a real amp and a mic, and for quiet jams late at night. Guitar Rig, the build-in garageband/Logic Pro amp modelers, a bunch of freeware, amplitube,...Been there done that. Most of the time, if I can't use a real amp, I just don't bother playing at all. Still, I used to plug in in a -don't laugh please- Johnson J-Station a lot. Back then it was miles ahead of the Line6 pod, and now it can actually still holds it's own impo. -Dirt cheap-digital output, which is one of the main reasons I choose the J-station over de pod (the new ones may have digital outs though, not sure). -Easy to use, not a zillion of menu's and settings, just a couple of buttons and some knobs that give the whole thing sort of an analog feel. It may not be as versitle as a software amp sim, but a standalone amp modeler like that is easier to use with an amp (not that you want to do that though, doens't sound too good). And you're using hardware, and don't have to worry about cpu issues or about windows or your daw crashing, or soundcard settings, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 J-Stations are great, I've had one for 5-6 years now. However, the POD X3 makes the J-Station look like a toy. Sound quality, quantity of amps/cabs/pedals/etc.. And yes, you can easily use a J-Station or a POD with an amp. Just go from the modeler's headphone out into the amp's effects return.. The reason they sound like {censored} through an amp is that people try running them into the preamp.. That's not a good idea.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annoying Twit Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 http://www.wavesgtr.com/html/product_gtr_solo.html Waves GTR Solo, free for a whole year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oldskool Texas Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm not a modeler guy, but it's not because they aren't convincing enough. My problem with them is that there's no speaker pushing any air, and no actual room that you're playing in. When recording digitally, especially if you use virtual drums (or a machine) and you're sending the bass and keyboards in direct, there's no real 'ambience', so everything sounds sterile. That's not the modeller's fault, it's just the nature of direct recording. I like at least one or two instruments to be played out in the room and picked up with a mic, just to breathe a little life into the tracks. For songwriting and rehearsing, of course, modellers are wonderful tools for getting a sound quickly and efficiently, and for late-night tracking, they're a godsend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuproSuper Man Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I've messed with just about all these programs, and I have to say that most are really, really good.. The Amplitube stuff is great, as is Revalver from Peavey.. The biggest issue with them is your hardware. I have a decent computer (Dell XPS 410, 2gb ram, X-Fi soundcard) and I can get the latency down pretty low, but it never works as well as when I play through my POD X3. It's like there is always a very short slap back echo (100ms or so) when I go through a software modeler. You can buy a better soundcard, but I'd rather just buy a hardware modeler, which is why I have a POD X3.. So yeah, with the right hardware, software modelers are awesome, but you better have a pretty hot computer to run them on. hi raven, im surprised your getting any lag at all, try the forums over at line6 maybe someone there with a similar setup as yours can recomend you some tweaks to improve your latency.. anyway , I got a line6 podxt live, no latency issues at all with it, also have a Berhinger Vamp Pro, and have some of those free , or free to try amp software programs... I have really got no issue with any of them as far a tone goes, they all sound a bit different from each other, one complaint i have with he line6 products is regarding volumes of the amp models, such as the bassman amp , i feel their model of that amp is way to weak sounding , you have to use a lot of compresor to get it loud enough to record,,, alot of people diss the berhinger line as being cheaply made, well i got the Vamp and it sounds quite nice , a bit different sounding from the line6 but still it has some awesome tones..i have never used it direct into my pc and its not USB its midi hookup to PC i think so i cant comment on latency..still its got a lot of tones for a very low price,,,and i got it second hand too so it was dirt cheap.. the amp modeler software thats kinda free is cool i tried them and they sound great too, but i had big latency issues with them, so after trying them i went back to using my pod for direct recording...but the features they have are astounding , i think peavys lets you even switch tubes and electronic components in its model ,,,their is a free one i forget what it was called but it came with a fender modeled amp and a marshell modeled amp just two amps and a couple modeled effects pedals , that package if i remember corectly gave me the least issues with latency but you only got two amps models..(found it , its the one below called simuanolog) so thats all i know about this stuff,,,hope it was useful to ya... here are links to some you can down load and try out Boogex - http://www.voxengo.com/product/boogex/ Aradaz Amp 2 White New Skin - Aradaz Amp ...havent tried this but they say its good ? Free Amp SE - http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1786.html Free Amp - http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2426.html SimulAnalog Guitar Suite - http://www.simulanalog.org/guitarsuite.htm more info about modlers - http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/ EDIT - BTW almost forgot to mention,,you can play your digital amp sims threw a real tube amp as well , i do all the time , you get some cool hybrid tones of the amp sim and the real tube amp mixed together,,,i also put my tiny little casio keboard threw my podxt and the thing sounds like a friggin giant B3 hamond organ in a cathedral ...soo cool..and fun .. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoeFender Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 All the stuff you could ever want, right next door in the Recording Forum:http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1006407 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuproSuper Man Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 There are also plenty of free amp modeling solutions. Just need a VST host if you want to play them standalone.Also there are a few other commercial ones, like Rock Amp Legends, Overloud TH1.Check out this list here for starters: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94800&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 wow thanks Randy G, i was looking all over their site for that page to use in my last post, but i couldnt find it,,,,(i find there site aint the easiest to navigate) ...got it book marked, now,,, best free music making software on the net .. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members freetime Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 How many have you used and which ones?numerous Line 6, digitech, behringer, boss, and computer ones. The more I use them, the less I like them. The ones that piss me off the most are fender amp models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashasha Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 The secret to getting a good realistic sound IMHO is going to be through convolution modelling. And just because an amp is live and you have a real mic doesn't mean that the room or the placement is going to sound great. With the newer apps going with convolution modeling and impulse responses you can change cabs, mics, placement, polarity and all kinds of other {censored} with the click of a mouse. If you record it dry you can go in there and adjust this stuff in the plugin to fit the mix better. You can spend days trying to get a good sound with 'real' gear. Yeah it isn't the same, but with a different perspective you can see the benefits. I'm not saying that amp sims are the greatest thing ever, but when you look at everything they have to offer, compare the price of one application running about $400 in the high end area and what it has to offer and then compare that to one cheap amp and maybe a fake Shure mic it's got it's advantages way before you even start talking about production advantages. For me I wouldn't have been able to play for years where I was living without the ability to throw on some headphones and jam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 hi raven, im surprised your getting any lag at all, try the forums over at line6 maybe someone there with a similar setup as yours can recomend you some tweaks to improve your latency.. I'm not getting any with the POD, at all.. That was my point. The software based stuff though, has a tiny bit. Some programs are worse than others though.. That free one from Waves, for example, has some slap back, but the Amplitube stuff (I've got em all, love me some emule!) is alllllllllllllllmost flawless.. The good thing about the software stuff is that when you record it, the latency vanishes on the playback. So it's just during the real time monitoring that it shows up.. If you can ignore it, everything is fine. And for the people saying that they don't respond like "real" amps, I call bull{censored}.. Maybe it's cuz I'm not a true believer in the holy scriptures of teh tube gods, but I'm just don't buy into the mojo of them.. For my money, modelers are awesome.. Tons of great, usable tones that very few people are going to snarl their nose at and go "that's not a real tube amp!" if they hear it on the radio or in a bar.. The ability to go straight to a PA system with my POD is amazing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DonK Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I use Guitar Rig Kontrol edition and Line 6's UX2 (w/ its software) a lot for recording: it's easy to use, sounds pretty darn good and certainly saves time. I'll still mic an amp now and then, but with the modeling software interfaces i can record stuff on my MacBook Pro in my family room whenever I feel like it, rather than having to use my home studio. The new Vox software looks pretty cool; I might give that a try eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oldskool Texas Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 With the newer apps going with convolution modeling and impulse responses you can change cabs, mics, placement, polarity and all kinds of other {censored} with the click of a mouse. You can spend days trying to get a good sound with 'real' gear. I dunno... with all those features, you can endlessly tweak the parameters of a modeler for days as well. Sometimes I think guitar -> amp -> mic -> tape is actually simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I dunno... with all those features, you can endlessly tweak the parameters of a modeler for days as well. Sometimes I think guitar -> amp -> mic -> tape is actually simpler. You are 100% correct.. But, try running your idea through 5 or 10 different amps, seeing how you want something to sound, in a brief period of time.. You'd have to a) own those amps and b) mic and re-mic all of them to record a little snippet.. Sorry, I'd rather just switch patches on my POD.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'm a fan of both Amplitube and the Line 6 stuff (the Gearbox/Pod Farm sims are the exact same as the XT/X3). I think in good, well-put-together recording, after everything is mastered down, no one could tell their sims from real amps. But these were primarily all designed as recording tools and the tracks have that slick tone of well-produced, recorded track; so they often aren't as convincing as a live amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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