Pin Test

[Freeman Keller]

Well, I've finally got the pin test done and mp3's uploaded for your listening pleasure. The background, for those who don't remember, is that there have been many discussions over the past year or so about the effects of various parts of our guitars that we can change - strings, saddles, pins, etc. Many people have favorites and have strong opinions about why their choice is better.

 

Bridge pins come in many flavors - plastic, bone, ivory, hard woods like ebony, and metals like brass. It is fairly simple to change them (be aware that there are different sizes and tapers). Some people just do it for looks - a nice abalone dot in the middle of a bone pin does look nice on some guitars. But to try to find out if there is a difference in sound I did the following tests.

 

I have recorded two guitars with a variety of pins, trying to keep everything else the same. The first is an old Martin D-18 -it has a bone saddle and nut, slotted pin holes (which means it can even be played without pins), and was strung with Martin SP PB lights (14 days old). It is a nice old mahogany guitar that is well opened up and might be found playing lead in a bluegrass band. The second guitar is an old Yamaha FG-150, with a plastic saddle and nut, Martin Marquis Bronze lights (also 14 days old). Also 'hog, it is a good example of a cheap "beater" guitar which might see some improvement with new pins.

 

All recording was done with a Shure SM57 located 7 inches from the 12th fret, recorded dry on a Roland Boss BR-532. The wav files were uploaded to my PC, then changed to mp3's with Audacity, and then uploaded to PutFile for your convenience. The samples consist of an identification of the git and pins, then each string is picked (with the same Fender medium pick), then each harmonic with the pick, the a big first position E chord is strummed with the pick. That is repeated without the pick using the flesh of my thumb.

 

OK, here we go

 

 

Martin-No_Pins.mp3

 

Martin-Plastic.mp3

 

Martin-Bone.mp3

 

Martin-Ebony.mp3

 

Martin-Brass.mp3

 

Yahama-Plastic.mp3

 

Yamaha-Brass.mp3

[knockwood]

Thanks for putting this together! Totally interesting.

 

I haven't listened to the Yamaha clips yet - don't want to confuse my ears too much...

 

Having listened to the D-18 clips a couple times around, only a few observations:

 

1) You've mentioned possibly selling that guitar. You can't do that. You gotta love the tone on that thing.

 

2) I was kind of surprised to hear what strikes me as not a massive amount of difference between the various pin materials - including no pins. The exception, to my ear, would be brass. Dramatic difference - mostly what sounds to me like elevated brightness. Can't say I was crazy about the brass, though - seemed somewhat harsh, although on a relatively boomy rose dread it seems like they might favorably mitigate preponderant boom. As for no-pins vs. plastic vs. ebony vs. bone, in a blind test I think I'd put my chances of accurately identifying each somewhere around 30%.

 

3) Again, in the blind test scenario, just asked to choose the clip I thought made the guitar sound best, I'm surprised to find that I'd probably select plastic...

 

Edit: Just listened to the Yammy clips. Same overall observation: Significant diff. with brass (+bright), and I am evidently a plastic man. Plastic gets a bad rap, but clearly it has its uses...

 

Seems like you've got some buzz creeping up on that 4th string! You may want to consult FK about that. (There'd be a smilie here, but the icons have disappeared from my screen...)

[Cripes]

The Larrivee OMV-09 I had brightened up nicely with the brass pins. I did FK's test on the OMV-09 some months back. I used plastic, ebony and brass and kept the brass. The guy I sold it to went back to ebony for the sake of keeping the guitar stock. Then he switched back to the brass. Brass removes a noticeable amount of compression when recording that guitar. I don't have that option with this pinless Breedlove so I have to think of something else like EQ'ing the signal in. Or, get a spruce topped guitar.

 

Thanks for the experiment FK. In this one I'll also take the plastic.

[Hudman]

I liked the plastic and the bone. The ebony seemed to darken up the notes a bit to the point of sounding slightly muffled (if that makes sense).

 

The brass was a touch too bright for my taste.

 

The Yamaha sounds great with plastic and brass.

 

Thanks Freeman!

[babablowfish]

First of all, thank you Freeman for going to all of this work.

 

I downloaded all of the clips and listened understanding that I might be listening through my prejudices. That said I was impressed by how great that FG-150 sounds. Yikes that is a great little guitar. I was very surprised by how good the Martin sounds with no pins. Who'da thunk it?

 

Despite my previous belief that bridge pins would have little impact on bridges which are ramped and slotted, I did notice a clear difference on the Martin in almost every step. The plastic gave more sustain than no pins. The ebony pins were clearly darker and richer. The bone pins were only slightly brighter than the ebony - I found that I prefered the ebony over the bone.

 

The most dramatic change I heard was with the brass. I preferred the brass over the plastic on the Yamaha by a mile. Although there was a clear difference in the tone and resonance on the Martin, the brass pins may have given it too much brightness and I think on that guitar I preferred the ebony - and I am a guy who up until this point has hated ebony pins (I'll stick with brass on my Yammy though.)

 

I am looking forward to seeing if others here heard the differences that I did. If so, perhaps we have settled one of the long-running controversies on this site.

 

Thanks again Freeman.

 

Hey Mods!! - Can this become a sticky?

[Queequeg]

Thanks Freeman. Good job.

My 54 year old ears can't possibly compete with these young guys here.

 

Still in all, I was wondering...

Suppose you hadn't identified each of the samples; would the comments have been just the same...

 

just wonderin'

[guitarist21]

 

Still in all, I was wondering... Suppose you hadn't identified each of the samples; would the comments have been just the same...

 

 

Interesting thought, Queg. Since I almost never experiment with bridge pins (hate taking off and putting strings on), I don't know if it would have for me, since I'm pretty much only familiar with plastic.

 

Ellen

[guitarist21]

Also, I was most interested in hearing the brass tests (since I've never used brass pins) and the brass pins on the D-18 sounded like being run over by a freight train! Incredibly powerful and balanced sound. I think I'm going to have to get some brass pins for my Washburn.

 

Ellen

[babablowfish]

 

Also, I was most interested in hearing the brass tests (since I've never used brass pins) and the brass pins on the D-18 sounded like being run over by a freight train! Incredibly powerful and balanced sound. I think I'm going to have to get some brass pins for my Washburn. Ellen

 

 

Consider going with the John Pearse KingPins.

 

Here's a link to Elderly (that's where I bought mine):

 

http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/JPKPBP.htm

[eor]

eor was feeling the ebony on the martin the most. conincidentally (?), my guitar has ebony pins too.

 

love,

eor

[daklander]

I brought this experiment to my garage where I have an old computer running Linux and some generic onboard soundcard into a Samson DA80 stereo amp tied to a pair of my 12" gigging loudspeakers.

I come up with thoughts quite abit along the lines Baba came up with.

On the Martin I preferred the Ebony because it tamed the nasty, to me, dissonant frequencies these old ears heard and on the last strum time count I came up with a count of six for sustain time. The second, surprisingly, was the brass. Though a bit bright for my taste I felt the brass was consistent over the board in representing each strings tone. Sustain time came in at a five. Bone was next in overall quality. The plastic, to me, had some anomalies in individual string tone and the sustain was about a four. The no peg was better than plastic in sustain but also had anomalies in individual string tone. With the last two, some strings sounded quite good and others sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard.

So, I would run ebony strings on that puppy unless I needed to be playing some bluegrass.

 

The Yamaha was as I expected because I run brass on my FG150. The brass brought out all the essence of the guitar and added tremendously to the sustain. From about a four with plastic to about a six with the brass, but, without adding the semi-harshness the brass added to the Martin.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Thank You Freeman. That took quite a lot of work and I for one appreciate your efforts. I think you had things dialed in quite well in your recording setup because your voice was, with my system, as close to identical as I could determine with the ears and gear I ran the test through.

Great Job!

[learn'r]

great job Freeman!

 

if I had to pick just one, I can't believe it but I say plastic.

 

brass pins in my A/E cutaway pinch into bridge tighter.

[babablowfish]

Although some may prefer plastic, some ebony and others brass, there can be no question that bridge pins do in fact affect tone and sustain. This has been a raging controversy as long as I've been in the group and it feels good but also a bit sad to say goodbye to this issue. My, my, what will we have to argue about now?

[Freeman Keller]

Good comments all. I'll add a couple of my own. First, I am going to add this to the end of the Sick Guitar sticky so it will be sort of stuck too. Since I can edit the first post I can easily do that.

 

Second - the brass pins are stying in the Yamaha (Baba, I own you one).

 

Third, I think it is interesting that several of you have liked the plastic in the old Martin. In away, this was a blind test for me - there are a number of people on the Martin forum that swear the stock Martin plastic pins are the best for those guitars. I have been running ebony in it for the past couple of years, but I think I'll change. The brass seems to brighten up an otherwise pretty strong bassy guitar, but I am not sure it is what I want. But since I'm going to use the Martin for the string test, I think I'll go ahead and use plastic. Maybe when that is done I'll put bone in it, but for now I'll stick with the stockers.

 

The no pin test is interesting, and only possible because the bridge is slotted. I tuned it up, then carefully pulled the pins (waiting for the ball ends to come flying out of the holes), tweaked the tuning, and quickly recorded it. That is an idea I got from Little Brother, and altho I thought is was kind of weak sounding, it still wasn't too bad. This confirms that the main function of the pins is to hold the strings in the holes, their mass really doesn't contribute that much to the bridge.

 

When I stuffed these clips into Audacity it makes a little time graph of the intensity of the signal - I am going to try to save these and attach them to this post. One thing that is interesting it the amount of time the note rings out - it's sustain. Brass does win here, with bone a strong second.

 

Hope you all got something out of this - I did. Now on to this pile of strings...

 

ps - Knock, I'd have a very hard time parting with either of those guitars - they have been dear friends for a long time

[babablowfish]

Although this was (a sensational) test of bridge pins, allow me to reiterate that what struck me most was how freakin' great that little Yamaha FG 150 sounded. Although others may disagree, I believe that is an all-laminate guitar. Yamahas with solid tops had an "S" at the end of the model # and I am pretty sure that those old FGs had laminate backs and sides.

 

Freeman, since you like the brass pins, you might want to try the John Pearse KingPins available at Elderly for $40.00 delivered. They are not just great sounding, but also look great. If you don't care about looks, the big ugly brass pins (D'Andrea?) carry more wallop IMHO than the smaller ones.

 

As for you "owing me one" - Nuts! I and everyone else on this forum owe you a lot more than one. Thank you again.

[daklander]

Although this was (a sensational) test of bridge pins, allow me to reiterate that what struck me most was how freakin' great that little Yamaha FG 150 sounded. Although others may disagree, I believe that is an all-laminate guitar. Yamahas with solid tops had an "S" at the end of the model # and I am pretty sure that those old FGs had laminate backs and sides. Freeman, since you like the brass pins, you might want to try the John Pearse KingPins available at Elderly for $40.00 delivered. They are not just great sounding, but also look great. If you don't care about looks, the big ugly brass pins (D'Andrea?) carry more wallop IMHO than the smaller ones. As for you "owing me one" - Nuts! I and everyone else on this forum owe you a lot more than one. Thank you again.

 

My old FG150, circa '71, is not a laminated top guitar and I've seen several that were not and don't remember ever seeing one that was obviously laminated. The back may be laminated but it certainly looks as if the grain on the sides comes all the way through so I doubt the sides are laminated either.

 

 

 

I also played the samples on this computer with through my monitors and I still come to the conclusions I had above on the different pegs. The only difference was I could hear a bit better so the sustains went up by a count of one.

[RizinRico]

WOW! Freeman has worked a miracle!

the folks posting on HC have agreed to agree and not agreed that it was ok to disagree. now that we are sure (thanks to FK's very hard work and attention to scientific detail) that end pins make a difference in tone.

Has anyone used different pins for different strings in order to improve or balace the tone across the fretboard? ie ebony E and A, bone D and G, and brass for B and E or some other combo of pins and strings?

[daklander]

 

.... Has anyone used different pins for different strings in order to improve or balace the tone across the fretboard? ie ebony E and A, bone D and G, and brass for B and E or some other combo of pins and strings?

 

 

Well, it's your idea, and a good one. Why don't you pursue it?

Let us hear your trial and final findings.

[GuitarNoobie]

thanks for this thread Freeman, it needs a STICKEY also...

 

I like some others think the Brass added much brightness..., too much for me, but sound is subjective...

 

amazingly i agree with some others that the plastic seem to have the most sustain..

 

i was totally amazed with the no pin concept...

 

the bone sounded nice as well, really close to the plastic, if you ask me and my subjective ear...

 

i really liked the ebony pins... they are darker sounding and slightly muffled, but i enjoyed the bassier sound of them...

 

so for me, i think i will either stick with the plastics in my Takamine or will probably try to get some ebony pins to see what they sound like in my particular guitar.

 

thanks again for the test man, looking forward to your string test...

[babablowfish]

My old FG150, circa '71, is not a laminated top guitar and I've seen several that were not and don't remember ever seeing one that was obviously laminated. The back may be laminated but it certainly looks as if the grain on the sides comes all the way through so I doubt the sides are laminated either. I also played the samples on this computer with through my monitors and I still come to the conclusions I had above on the different pegs. The only difference was I could hear a bit better so the sustains went up by a count of one.

 

I just emailed Yamaha and asked if they could let me know whether the tops, backs and sides of the 140, 150, 160 and 340 were solid or laminate. If they have any records on these oldies maybe we can get a definitive answer.

 

I do not doubt your own observations, but I have heard of some guitars getting through with different and better construction because that was what was on hand at the time (thus the legendary all-solid Brazilian Rosewoods that pop up every now and then.) I am willing to be completely wrong on this (won't be the first time or the last) and will post the answer if and when it comes.

[telelurker]

Interesting work FK, it's good to see some objectivity brought to the debate.

 

What are your thoughts on the quality of fit between the peg and the hole? I'm wondering if that might be significant. Manufacturers may quote dimensions for their products but how reliable is that information? Given manufacturing tolerances, wear and tear etc could there be a difference in sound caused by pins that, for example, only fit the holes at the very top and are otherwise undersize, and pins that have consistent contact further down the hole?

 

If that were the case is it possible that softer pins will conform to an irregular hole and harder pins will only touch the high spots? Or will harder pins compress the wood around the hole and 'true it up'?

 

Perhaps the next phase of testing should be on pins made to engineering tolerances in holes reamed out to an accurate fit? Anyone willing to donate their vintage Martin for this?

[Freeman Keller]

Thank, Tele. I think that it is very important to have the correct sized pin with the correct taper for your bridge. There are at least two different tapers (3 and 5 degrees) and several different diameters of the holes. It is better that the pin stand slightly tall in the hole than be too loose.

 

The Yamaha has slightly smaller diameter holes and the old plastic pins and brass ones fit nice and snug. The Martin has had the bridgeplate replaced and the holes were reamed after being redrilled. They are also slotted, which means that the strings have their own little slots in the bridge - I can use unslotted pins (or if I use slotted ones I turn them around). All of the pins fit snuggley in the Martin, but the brass ones were right down on their ends - I would call the fit marginal (if I wanted brass in it I would probably order another set in the next size larger).

 

If you are buying pins for your guitar either be sure to check with the supplier that they are the right diameter, length and taper, or take your old ones to compare. Bob Colosi has a chart on his website about what fits major brands. People sometimes buy them slightly oversized and sand to fit.

 

With each test I loosened the strings trying to keep them in the slots up tight against the bridge plate. When I tuned them up I looked how much of the windings was sticking out - that way I was pretty sure they were tight. I retuned with my little Korg (but did you notice one of the test the G string is slightly flat?) and proceeded with the recording.

 

While we are on the subject of bridges, the Martin also has the string angles "ramped" so they all come off the saddle at about the same angle. The idea is to have each string able to drive the saddle with the same force - remember that the string "rocks" the saddle (there is no vertical component on a fixed bridge guitar) so it is important to have the same fulcrum for each string.

 

Here are a few references - the first is where I got the idea of the No Pin test

 

http://littlebrother.nlpd.com/pintest/default.htm

 

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92274

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/music/rates.htm

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/bridges/slotted.htm

 

http://www.guitarsaddles.com/products.asp

 

http://p082.ezboard.com/ftheunofficialmartinguitarforumfrm4.showMessage?topicID=37045.topic

[markwayne]

 

Has anyone used different pins for different strings in order to improve or balace the tone across the fretboard? ie ebony E and A, bone D and G, and brass for B and E or some other combo of pins and strings?

 

 

Well, I have an older, mid-level Alvarez 12 that was just a bit too jangly to be much use. I paired bone pins with the standard strings and ebony pins with the octave strings. I was surprised at what a huge difference this made. I'm convinced that the further away you are from where you want to be tone-wise, the better luck you are going to have with pin swapping. Pin swapping in my Martins and Gibson has a much smaller impact. This Alvarez has gone from a dog into the second best 12 string I've ever had. (The very best was an old Yamaha slothead 12 that was stolen back in 1977.)

 

Wayne

[daklander]

 

I just emailed Yamaha and asked if they could let me know whether the tops, backs and sides of the 140, 150, 160 and 340 were solid or laminate. If they have any records on these oldies maybe we can get a definitive answer. I do not doubt your own observations, but I have heard of some guitars getting through with different and better construction because that was what was on hand at the time (thus the legendary all-solid Brazilian Rosewoods that pop up every now and then.) I am willing to be completely wrong on this (won't be the first time or the last) and will post the answer if and when it comes.

 

 

Do keep us posted. It will be interesting to see what they have to say now.

Maybe I should see if I can get some really good pics and post them so someone can really see the grain on the sides and back.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Do keep us posted. It will be interesting to see what they have to say now. Maybe I should see if I can get some really good pics and post them so someone can really see the grain on the sides and back.

 

 

 

I'm going to look at mine tonight too. I was always certain that the top is solid and thought the back was also.