Need More PA

[Howie22]

For my PA, I have a Yamaha powered mixer and two Yorkville NX35s. It puts out 700 watts. I have a powered RCF Art 310 for monitor. This is more than enough for the majority of gigs I play.

 

For some of the bigger with my duo/trio, we've also been using my bandmate's powered Mackie Thump 15's.

 

At our outdoor gig on Saturday, we had my system cranked as much as I was willing to push it (I don't go much past about 2/3 - 3/4 full volume). Additionally, we had the Mackie's going. They were turned up about half way, but I noticed that the clip light was coming on quite a bit - sound seemed to still be okay.

 

Still, we weren't really loud enough for the event?? Funny, because we used the same setup at an outdoor pool party the weekend before, and were asked to turn down!

 

At some point, we are going to have to invest in more power for these bigger outdoor gigs. No clue what we need, nor am I in any position to make a massive investment.

 

I'm guessing we'll need to go with some louder powered mains, a new board, and at least one sub?? Any recommendations. For now, we are two guitars and hand percussion. A bass player is an option in the near future. Going full band with a full drummer may eventually happen, but is not an immediate threat.

 

What kind of wattage do I need to look at? I'm not talking big outdoor "concert-type" festivals, but certainly large outdoor pool parties/frat parties/neighborhood block parties, etc.

 

This may be better for the Live Sound forum, but we are still an acoustic act. So, I'll start here!

[Bob Dey]

The thumps lack power for this type of gig. The SR guys always say SPL is a more important spec than wattage. Depending on how often you need a bigger system, you might want to rent instead of buy. Get your speakers elevated as high as possible for best coverage.

 

I hear the new Yamaha DXR line has a great sound, is quite loud, and is priced lower than the DSR line that came out last year. There are many choices out there of course.

[pogo97]

Would a limiter be useful here?

[Pro Sound Guy]

For my PA, I have a Yamaha powered mixer and two Yorkville NX35s. It puts out 700 watts. I have a powered RCF Art 310 for monitor. This is more than enough for the majority of gigs I play. For some of the bigger with my duo/trio, we've also been using my bandmate's powered Mackie Thump 15's. At our outdoor gig on Saturday, we had my system cranked as much as I was willing to push it (I don't go much past about 2/3 - 3/4 full volume). Additionally, we had the Mackie's going. They were turned up about half way, but I noticed that the clip light was coming on quite a bit - sound seemed to still be okay. Still, we weren't really loud enough for the event?? Funny, because we used the same setup at an outdoor pool party the weekend before, and were asked to turn down! At some point, we are going to have to invest in more power for these bigger outdoor gigs. No clue what we need, nor am I in any position to make a massive investment. I'm guessing we'll need to go with some louder powered mains, a new board, and at least one sub?? Any recommendations. For now, we are two guitars and hand percussion. A bass player is an option in the near future. Going full band with a full drummer may eventually happen, but is not an immediate threat. What kind of wattage do I need to look at? I'm not talking big outdoor "concert-type" festivals, but certainly large outdoor pool parties/frat parties/neighborhood block parties, etc. This may be better for the Live Sound forum, but we are still an acoustic act. So, I'll start here!

Why not pick up another set of Mackie Thumps, and parallel them together and have two on each side on poles. This would give you more output for your bigger shows. When you play smaller shows simply use two MT's instead of four.

[tlbonehead]

Mackie Thumps are very bottom end speakers and really aren't very good. When you get to a point, it takes a lot to gain a little.

[Howie22]

 

Mackie Thumps are very bottom end speakers and really aren't very good. When you get to a point, it takes a lot to gain a little.

 

 

Yeah, I know they aren't very good. Unfortunately, it's what we have right now. They aren't mine, but rather speakers my duo partner has.

[guitarjrh]

If you are not regularly doing these large gigs, why don't you rent? Then you could try several different options and see which one might be the best for you if you do decide to purchase.

[Howie22]

What do rental PA's even cost?

[dboomer]

 

A bass player is an option in the near future. Going full band with a full drummer may eventually happen, but is not an immediate threat.

 

 

A little pre-planning may be in order here. All things equal it take 4x the power every time you go down one octave to be the same level you were an octave above. So you'll want to plan for expansion (which ain't easy). I'd recommend something in the $800 per top-box range (bi-amped) and then add subs when/if you expand the band. But it depends on the material

 

 

What kind of wattage do I need to look at?

 

 

It's not really the "wattage" that is important. That's a little like trying to determine how fast a car will go by judging it's MPG rating. What you really want to know is "Max SPL".

[TIMKEYS]

 

Mackie Thumps are very bottom end speakers and really aren't very good. When you get to a point, it takes a lot to gain a little.

 

 

I have read that about the thumps. I have mackie 450s They will run a 5 piece americana band in a bar setting or patio setting. Loud is a relative thing. one guys loud is anothers not loud enough.

[nousername]

 

What do rental PA's even cost?

 

 

I'm renting a system for an upcoming gig:

 

12 channel board with 2 monitor mixes

Two 18" subs

Two 15" mains

Four 12" wedge

Amps for all speakers

All cables

 

$250 for the weekend. But that's my area, rural WA.

[VanHalen]

At our outdoor gig on Saturday... Still, we weren't really loud enough for the event?? Funny, because we used the same setup at an outdoor pool party the weekend before, and were asked to turn down!

 

When you play outdoors you need 10 times the amount of speakers that you would use indoors for the same amount of people.

 

There are a lot of factors that can affect your sound when playing outdoors. The wind, the humidity, uphill sloping ground, etc.

 

You will probably need at the very least four 18" subs and two mains with 1,000 watts amp power per speaker cabinet for each side of the stage. This is a minimal outdoor rig that will only acommodate 200-400 people. If you can't afford that at the very minimum, then I would advise hiring out your sound for all outdoor events.

 

[Howie22]

When you play outdoors you need 10 times the amount of speakers that you would use indoors for the same amount of people. There are a lot of factors that can affect your sound when playing outdoors. The wind, the humidity, uphill sloping ground, etc. You will probably need at the very least four 18" subs and two mains with 1,000 watts amp power per speaker cabinet for each side of the stage. This is a minimal outdoor rig that will only acommodate 200-400 people. If you can't afford that at the very minimum, then I would advise hiring out your sound for all outdoor events.

 

Come on now. . .

 

Four 1,000 watt main cabs and eight 18" subs for a dude with an acoustic guitar playing at a pool party or in someone's back yard?

 

I mean, I understand if you are a full on band putting on a concert show, but that seems way overkill for an acoustic based act??

 

I guess I need

[VanHalen]

Come on now. . . Four 1,000 watt main cabs and eight 18" subs for a dude with an acoustic guitar playing at a pool party or in someone's back yard? I mean, I understand if you are a full on band putting on a concert show, but that seems way overkill for an acoustic based act?? I guess I need

 

An outdoor gig is an outdoor gig. If you want to reproduce your sound to 200-400 people outdoors, you need the same rig that any band would need - regardless if you have one member or 10 members in the band. Otherwise it will sound like a transistor radio.

 

If you are at a pool party you probably have walls around you. If that is the case you can get by with a slightly smaller rig. But if you are in an open field, you need 10 times the rig that you would use indoors.

 

[Bob Dey]

When you play outdoors you need 10 times the amount of speakers that you would use indoors for the same amount of people. There are a lot of factors that can affect your sound when playing outdoors. The wind, the humidity, uphill sloping ground, etc. You will probably need at the very least four 18" subs and two mains with 1,000 watts amp power per speaker cabinet for each side of the stage. This is a minimal outdoor rig that will only acommodate 200-400 people. If you can't afford that at the very minimum, then I would advise hiring out your sound for all outdoor events.

 

LMAO!

[Terry Allan Hall]

Likely depends on your audience, but my 12-channel, 3 X 333watt rig, w/ 2 12" + horn cabs on stands and a single 18" sub has worked fine for parties of up to 250 people, both solo and trio. I've occasionally used 4 cabs, again on stands, but it really seemed to be overkill.

 

Of course, this is acoustic-based music, and the audience is a mixture of middle-aged folks and their kids/grandkids celebrating anniversaries, b'days and the like, not head-banger stuff for 20-yos on meth and/or Exstacy.

[Bobby1Note]

At our outdoor gig on Saturday, we had my system cranked as much as I was willing to push it (I don't go much past about 2/3 - 3/4 full volume). Additionally, we had the Mackie's going. They were turned up about half way, but I noticed that the clip light was coming on quite a bit - sound seemed to still be okay. Still, we weren't really loud enough for the event?? Funny, because we used the same setup at an outdoor pool party the weekend before, and were asked to turn down! At some point, we are going to have to invest in more power for these bigger outdoor gigs. No clue what we need, nor am I in any position to make a massive investment. What kind of wattage do I need to look at? I'm not talking big outdoor "concert-type" festivals, but certainly large outdoor pool parties/frat parties/neighborhood block parties, etc.

 

Howie, re-read Don's post carefully, especially what I've highlighted in red.

 

Howie22, your "clip lights" are coming on "early", because you're running your cabinets full-range. The more low frequencies your cab has to push, the harder it'll work.

 

You don't need to go out and totally re-vamp your system,,, what you need to do is refine it.

 

Get yourself a good powered sub, and off-load the low frequencies from your tops, by hi-passing them at 100Hz or higher (120). You'll get a heckuva lot more from your tops, and let the sub do the grunt work. You'll love your system again,

[Bob Dey]

Howie, re-read Don's post carefully, especially what I've highlighted in red. Howie22, your "clip lights" are coming on "early", because you're running your cabinets full-range. The more low frequencies your cab has to push, the harder it'll work. You don't need to go out and totally re-vamp your system,,, what you need to do is refine it. Get yourself a good powered sub, and off-load the low frequencies from your tops, by hi-passing them at 100Hz or higher (120). You'll get a heckuva lot more from your tops, and let the sub do the grunt work. You'll love your system again,

 

But does this apply to two acoustic guitars and hand drums? For the price a a decent powered sub, two better powered speakers could be had.

 

Another possible solution is getting more power to the yorkvilles. Which Yamaha powered mixer is being used now, and can the yorkies handle more power? The Thumps could be used as monitors.

[Howie22]

 

But does this apply to two acoustic guitars and hand drums? For the price a a decent powered sub, two better powered speakers could be had. Another possible solution is getting more power to the yorkvilles. Which Yamaha powered mixer is being used now, and can the yorkies handle more power? The Thumps could be used as monitors.

 

 

The output of the Yamaha at the specified ohm load matches up with what the Yorkvilles can handle.

 

My Yamaha is the EMX512, which is 500W per side. It drops to 350W per side when you only use one speaker per side.

[donkey 12]

I have been in the same situation as Howie22 and have a similar setup. I too have a Yamaha EMX512SC, a pair of EV SX100+ speakers, and an EV ZX1-90 for monitor duty. This set up is more than enough for the vast majority of our performances, and is overkill for quite a few. However, there is the occasional outdoor gig where I would not mind a bit more PA. I can get the job done at these performances, bit I would like the option of putting some more volume/higher SPL out there. We are a duo - acoustic/resonator guitar, and vocals.

[Bob Dey]

Howie, maybe adding two more of the yorkies will do the trick. I would run this by the SR forum for more input. Good luck.

[Bobby1Note]

 

But does this apply to two acoustic guitars and hand drums? For the price a a decent powered sub, two better powered speakers could be had. Another possible solution is getting more power to the yorkvilles. Which Yamaha powered mixer is being used now, and can the yorkies handle more power? The Thumps could be used as monitors.

 

 

It's not about how small the group is,,, it's about the size of the crowd you want to cover, and whether or not you're indoors or outdoors.

 

Doubling the amp power is not a solution in this case (3 dB gain)

 

Back later,,, gotta go.

[Bob Dey]

 

It's not about how small the group is,,, it's about the size of the crowd you want to cover, and whether or not you're indoors or outdoors. Doubling the amp power is not a solution in this case (3 dB gain) Back later,,, gotta go.

 

 

No, I was thinking how little there would be in that frequency range with guitars. Now I'm thinking doubling the speakers would be a better solution. But I'm not a SR expert. I just read posts by those who are to learn. Speaker and sub threads tend to turn into long ones!

[daddymack]

Howie, IIRC, in another thread, you mentioned that the place you had to set up for that gig was not optimal, right? That may have a lot to do with the perception that you were not loud enough.

 

I also will agree with those who suggested you add a powered sub and re-EQ the mains to drop all the bass below 110Hz (+/- 10 Hz) and shunt that to the sub. That will free up a lot of juice for the mids and highs, which is primarily what you want to push.

Playing in a wide open space is always a challenge, but it isn't all about power, a lot has to do with how high your mains are physically above the crowd, and the dispersion angles.

The other question is how you determined from the stage that the PA wasn't adequate?

 

As an old friend once chuckled...'if they don't think they are loud enough, turn up the monitors...'

[Bobby1Note]

 

But does this apply to two acoustic guitars and hand drums? For the price a a decent powered sub, two better powered speakers could be had. Another possible solution is getting more power to the yorkvilles. Which Yamaha powered mixer is being used now, and can the yorkies handle more power? The Thumps could be used as monitors.

 

 

Bob,

 

It's not so much about what frequency range the speakers reproduce,,,, it's about how much sound-pressure level they'll put out at the crowds' listening position.

 

Take desktop computer speakers,,,, or desktop studio monitors as an example,,,, they sound fine up close, in a small room, because they're near-field monitors. They're designed to be listened to over a very limited distance, usually not more than 4 feet or so. Stand 20-30 feet away, and they'll sound thin. Take them outside, and they'll sound even thinner.

 

Outdoors, in a noisy-crowd situation, you need a system that can deal with the crowd noise, and the fact that you're not getting any "assistance"(so to speak), from sound-reflections that you get from an indoor set-up, (walls, ceilings, hard floor surfaces, etc. Humidity levels will also influence your system's capabilities to some degree.

 

Howie22's loudspeakers, are the Yorkville NX35's,,, which is the passive version of the Yorkville NX55P. I've got eight of those (NX55P's). The loudspeakers have a reputation for extended low-frequency response, which is why they can sound so good for an acoustic duo, even when you're not using subs. It's the main reason why I chose those loudspeakers for my acoustic solo/duo/trio gigs. Run full-range however, and the trade-off will be a lower output level (earlier limiting/clipping). If you want more sound-pressure, you MUST hi-pass the mains, and let a sub handle the low frequencies. The difference is far from subtle.

 

The Yorkville LS720P is the ideal sub to run with those tops. They were designed to work together. The sub sounds very tight/clean/and punchy, with plenty of output. I can put a pair of these subs, side-by-side, on the back seat of my car. Actually, that sub was designed to go with the larger NX750P's, so there's more than enough when running with the NX55P's or the NX35's.

 

Frankly, I'd still be quite reticent in covering a 200-person outdoor gig, with those speakers. It depends. If the crowd is seated quietly, and concentrated on listening to "the show",,,, they'll sound fine. If the crowd is mingling, and interacting among themselves, that's a whole n'uther story. The louder you are, the louder they'll talk, and it becomes a vicious circle.

 

Will Howie's system perform better/louder with subs,,,, yes, absolutely. Will it be enough to cover his crowd? It depends on their behavior, and the area that the speakers have to cover.

 

Would I do an outdoor 200+ person gig with a pair of NX55P's and a sub? No way. I'd haul out my EF500PB's,(I've got four of those) and possibly, my LS801P subwoofers.

 

You've also got to ask yourself this question; When you're playing at this gig, will you be listened to by the crowd, like a high-profile act,,,, or are you background music while they mill about, talking to each other? If the latter is the case, Howie will do well with adding one or two subs to his existing system. Just get those tops up high, splay them accordingly, and center-couple the subs, and he'll be a lot louder than he is now.