Members techristian Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Yes, a few of you may have noticed my whining about musicians not making any money playing , but now the business has taken a new low. Want to BE SEEN? Then pay !! ..............$38 before Jan. 31 2012 and your band may be one of the 650 featured ! That should give your career a boost..... with 649 OTHER bands to see!! Does each band get a booth? Check this out. http://www.nxne.com/ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 That appears to be a festival that is all about exposure though. You're paying for an opportunity. I play bar gigs, weddings, coporate events and I'm a vendor providing a service for which I get paid at those gigs but if I were an artist with music that I believed in sharing to a larger audience $38 isn't that big of an investment in marketing. EDIT: Also, here in LA as well as many other cities "Pay to Play" means buying a lot of presale tickets and being forced to resell them to your audience to play a showcase gig. Not something to do on a regular basis but the occasional showcase can be useful. You just can't make any real money doing things that way and you burn your audience out quickly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Dan, "pay-to-play" has been common for the last 25+ years, both in the type of situation you mention and Mark's note about the infamous Los Angeles practice of buying out all the tickets to a show. There's nothing new here. I'm happy for you that you've only just now discovered it, sparing yourself several decades of disgust as I've experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members techristian Posted October 27, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Dan, "pay-to-play" has been common for the last 25+ years, both in the type of situation you mention and Mark's note about the infamous Los Angeles practice of buying out all the tickets to a show. There's nothing new here. I'm happy for you that you've only just now discovered it, sparing yourself several decades of disgust as I've experienced. Both of you guys are from California. That may have something to do with it but................ I just retired from my day gig almost 2 years ago, and my eyes have just been opening up to the music blight in the past few years. But I can also see the next step in this. Here in Windsor Ontario and in Detroit , every summer, for one month, a large section of our downtown areas are shut down for, carnivals, big stage music acts, buskers and fireworks for THE INTERNATIONAL FREEDOM FESTIVAL. This is THE ONLY TIME of the the year that some local bands get paid well enough to play with their ENTIRE band, and these are some of the best paying gigs of the year. So let's say that the people running these events recognise the "promotional aspect" of this event and start to use rhetoric like this "You will be seen by people from all over the world as they pour into this major event.", thereby not having to pay the musicians or even charging them to play. Then our best paying event for musicians could become our worst paying event. But I ask you, how much will you be seen when there are 649 other bands playing as well? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 As others have pointed out, that's been going on for years. But that won't stop bands from lining up and doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Yeah, Dan, I'm sorry this unfortunate reality has made its way to your area, but out here in the LA area, there have been pay to play shows for decades. A far better approach may well be for bands to form collectives and hire halls and venues on their own, in some cases cutting out middlemen and maintaining better control of the flow of money. I've known bands that went that route -- doing their own advertising and other promo, even taking tickets and hiring security and event insurance directly and were able to make decent money. Sometimes very decent money. Something that has continued to vex me -- but that I recently got some new info on -- has been the continuous barage of "pay-to-be-considered" "opportunities" forwarded to me via the site ReverbNation, where I've had content for some years (I like their embeddable player and the fact that they stream whatever quality you upload -- although free accounts are limited to 8MB max file sizes -- but I put my primary efforts into Bandcamp, which has the best sales system by far, I think, including the option for your purchasers to get lossless FLAC or Apple Lossless formats). Someone had suggested that ReverbNation was taking a cut of these (typically but not always pay-to-be-considered) opportunities. I finally let loose with a complaint to RN and received a thoughtful and sympathetic email back from one of their representatives who assured me that RN does not take a cut but only passes the offers (pay and not) that they receive from outside sources. Since there are actually occasional 'real' licensing opportunities (ie, not cattle call but actually targeted to specific bands and not pay-to-be-considered), it looks like for now (until they offer the option to block "pay" "opportunities," anyhow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 You are all LAME AMATEURS In Latin America, you have to pay if you want to play in a bar / club. They MAY give you a couple of beers for the band. Club owners think it is "fair" because, you know, your band plays in "a hot place" and gets the right exposure which will translate into millions of dollars in contracts to play in other places. Right? ... thanks God I'm out of that circle now. I may not get paid occasionally, but at least I do not pay to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 In Latin America, you have to pay if you want to play in a bar / club. They MAY give you a couple of beers for the band. Club owners think it is "fair" because, you know, your band plays in "a hot place" and gets the right exposure which will translate into millions of dollars in contracts to play in other places. Right? That's how it began here, with places like The Whisky charging bands to play. They'd have to bring in a certain amount or else make up the difference themselves. But bands jumped at the chance to play because they thought it might get the right exposure and translate into million-dollar major label contracts and that kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 I finally let loose with a complaint to RN and received a thoughtful and sympathetic email back from one of their representatives who assured me that RN does not take a cut but only passes the offers (pay and not) that they receive from outside sources. I think they are full of {censored}ing {censored}. Even if they don't take a "cut", I'll bet my bottom dollar that sending those mass emails is part of a "partner program" where the event holders are charged a set fee by RN. My digital distribution is via RN; it's only because it's too much a pain in the ass to change that I haven't dumped their spam-flinging ass long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 You are all LAME AMATEURS In Latin America, you have to pay if you want to play in a bar / club. They MAY give you a couple of beers for the band. Club owners think it is "fair" because, you know, your band plays in "a hot place" and gets the right exposure which will translate into millions of dollars in contracts to play in other places. Right? ... thanks God I'm out of that circle now. I may not get paid occasionally, but at least I do not pay to play Yuck. Makes LA seem like a little less of a {censored}hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 I think they are full of {censored}ing {censored}. Even if they don't take a "cut", I'll bet my bottom dollar that sending those mass emails is part of a "partner program" where the event holders are charged a set fee by RN. My digital distribution is via RN; it's only because it's too much a pain in the ass to change that I haven't dumped their spam-flinging ass long ago. Quit holding back, tell us how you really feel! You can turn off the "opportunity notifications" -- but then you might actually miss a real opportunity. (I got one once, I knew because it was only addressed to one of my bands and didn't charge anything. Unfortunately, it was months later I found it buried in the rest of the spam. ) FWIW, I do like their player and their Facebook app works well, too. Bandcamp just sent out a notice that they have a Facebook app now -- but I see from a quick glance that they're talking about setting up a Facebook tab -- but I thought tabs were basically all grandfathered, if they existed at all. (Their graphics, however, show a link in the left sidebar, not a tab. I guess I'll just have to play with it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Yuck. Makes LA seem like a little less of a {censored}hole. Well, not that I do -- but one can see it from the club owner/booker perspective... a lot of bands don't do much or any promo and don't have any following. They'll tell the booker they have a big following, of course. (Everyone supposedly pads their resume, eh?) Maybe they'll even call four or five friends. But when I used to hang out in clubs (often 4-5 nights a week), I'd see band after band who could barely even get their girlfriends to show up. Some of these buy-your-spot-on-stage systems can be thought of as a way to force bands to put their money where their mouths are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Well, not that I do -- but one can see it from the club owner/booker perspective... a lot of bands don't do much or any promo and don't have any following. They'll tell the booker they have a big following, of course. (Everyone supposedly pads their resume, eh?) Maybe they'll even call four or five friends. But when I used to hang out in clubs (often 4-5 nights a week), I'd see band after band who could barely even get their girlfriends to show up. Some of these buy-your-spot-on-stage systems can be thought of as a way to force bands to put their money where their mouths are. Well, the reality is that none of those venues would be in business if they didn't go the presale route. Bands would have no incentive to get people in the door and they wouldn't think twice about booking gigs so close together and so often that they wouldn't draw on a regular basis. Los Angeles is also so full of other entertainment options that folks would rather not go hang out in a bar with five unknown bands playing music that they don't recognize. I'm out of the scene now but I put in my years playing original music in both Los Angeles and Orange County and the best gigs were the ones that we promoted ourselves with other bands that we knew would wokr with us to create a great night of entertainment for EVERYONES fans. Then people wanted to come and hang out and there would be a scene instead of a bar where people waited outside the venue until their friends got up to play and then left right afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 27, 2011 Members Share Posted October 27, 2011 Dan, "pay-to-play" has been common for the last 25+ years, both in the type of situation you mention and Mark's note about the infamous Los Angeles practice of buying out all the tickets to a show. There's nothing new here. I'm happy for you that you've only just now discovered it, sparing yourself several decades of disgust as I've experienced. Yup. I thought this was common knowledge?! Dan, this is going back to around 2003-4... I was playing out a lot more than I do now (which is never). I was booked at a place in the city and they call me a week before the show... "You have to guarantee at least 20 people to the show or else you`re not getting paid and you won`t be invited back..." Well, I didn`t get paid that nite, nor did I ever play there again... Its not pretty, it hash`t been for a long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dingoist Posted October 28, 2011 Members Share Posted October 28, 2011 NxNE isn't the scam you seem to be painting it. It's pretty big, and perhaps the very small $38 dollars is to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Sure they are hyping it because it has become after 18 years one of the bigger festivals for independents, and historically there was talent scouting also happening (I'm not as sure now). For something like this, I don't see anything wrong with it, and I don't put in the same league as a bar's pay to play. I used to sell at smaller local art shows, which often had a "table fee". I see it as the same thing in this case. And while the spinoff revenue for Toronto is probably quite big, they may have taken a sponsorship hit with the restrictions big tobacco on advertising, so there might be an actual need to generate some revenue to cover administrative costs of putting together such a large festival. Don't be so freaked out man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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