Emergency Overhead Issues - snare too loud

hey!

I'm back in the studio recording some demo's of our new stuff this weekend. I really don't want to have the same issues as our last session.

Issue being that when it came to mix time, i had little or NO snare mic in the mix. Even still, the snare was over powering

I wrote a blog about it for our myspace/enhanced CD - CLICK HERE - that details most of the process.

You can hear the snare i mean on our myspace - myspace.com/whisperintheriot - The 1st track is a demo with guitar rig so listen to JUST A LIE

So what i need to know is, are there any tricks with OVH's i can use to eliminate so much snare?? Last time we used the Joey Jordison Signature snare - this time we're going to take 3 or 4 to audition.

any tips??

Thanks guys

Andy

Nothing guys? Am I destined to have a REALLy loud snare for ever?

Several things can help. Audio ducking is one. Im not an expert and never had to utilize it. But by using a compressor on the snare track and one on the overhead track or tracks, you set up the overhead to trigger compression whenever it gets a signal from the snare. Do a google search for audio ducking and a lot of stuff comes up. A compressor by its self could help. Probably a multiband would work best. You can try a HPF (high pass filter), along with eq. Or manually edit each hit, (that would take some time).

Get a better drummer to play on your demo. One that can balance the kit so you don't have more snare than cymbals in your overheads... or... mic the cymbals so you can bring them into the balance correctly.

Drum balance should mainly be done by the drummer... but if you need to help them, then mic everything individually and get the kit to balance electronically [which is a pain in the bollocks and never works quite as well as a good drummer that can balance their playing].

Peace.

Yeah, sometimes if you're working with a drummer who can't play in a balanced manner, it can really mess things up. I've run into this live before, too. I ran sound for a group recently where the drummer was SO proud of how loud his snare was - it was some sort of little snare that looked like a tom, and every time he hit it the people at the back of the room would wince. The people at the front of the room couldn't hear it after the first hit. He wound up with a kick mic, and that was it. The snare was STILL overpowering everything else on the stage, and the only option was to just let the snare be too loud, or to turn up everything else to the point that nobody would want to stay in the room.

I can't even imagine how awful it would have been trying to record him. But he sure was proud of how loud his snare was...

On the other hand, the drummer I normally work with could be recorded with a single mic if I wanted and it would still sound good. He has a well-balanced approach and knows how to play the kit like an actual instrument instead of just a collection of different pieces. The guy's a pleasure to work with.

Fair points - i honestly didn't think of it that simply :-)

I think it is one of those uber loud metal snares though - we'll try switching

It was said before, but truly, the drummer is responsible for the balance of the drums.

fully agree, i play drums my self and recently started recording our ep and i took me 4 weeks + to optimize mic position tuning and play technique to get the sound i was aiming for..

i agree it took far to long but im glad i took the time to get it done properly.

hope all goes well telling the drummer what to do.

Sorry, I thaught you wanted ways to fix the tracks you had.

Sorry, I thaught you wanted ways to fix the tracks you had.

Good point. Sometimes you just get handed something and have to work with it.

Your snare isn't that loud IMO, in fact I think the snare on the first song is to quiet! I think it needs some more processing to get things in check, dump off some lows in the OH mics and slam the hell out of that snare with a compressor and I think you will be closer that you think. In the future though it helps to check out what other people have done mikng wise:

Kick 1 > SM-91 > Manley Slam!

Kick 2 (sub) > NS-10 speaker > Manley Slam!

Snare (top) > Audix i5 > API 7600

Snare (bottom) > AKG-414 > Focusrite ISA

Tom 1 > MD-421 > Neve 33115

Tom 2 > MD-421 > Neve 33115

Tom 3 > MD-421 > Neve 33122

Tom 4 > MD-421 > Neve 33122

Hat > Gefell M300 > Focusrite ISA

Ride > Neumann KM100 > Focusrite ISA

China > Neumann KM184 > Focusrite ISA

OH (x2) > Universal Audio 2-610 > AT4051 (different capsules inside, I can't recall at the moment)

Room (x2) > Coles 4038 > Crane Song Flamingo

Ideas that I don't fallow but you might like:

Watch at 1:33 for a drum session I did in reguards to mics used (don't remember all the outboard sorry):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl50HkTdJo0

Hard to see the mics well unfortunately:

All that {censored} said above what you really need to do is just spend time on mic placement till you get what you need. If your pressed for time hire an engineer that knows his {censored} with this genre (sorry 3 mic fan guys that doesn't mean you ).

Use room mics this time around as well if you can.

sweet!! Thanks a lot!

We're going in tonight to get it done (all nighter again!!) 15 hours to get 4 tracks down so we'll spend a good while playing with mic positions/configurations.

As an aside, your personal opinions on -

Kick Front skin on or off??

I like it on with a hole in the head.

What genre?

In general, I generally like prefer to have it on...generally.

As an engineer? I like to go with however the drummer typically tunes and sets up his/her drums and go from there. If the person needs help, I'll make suggestions. If the drummer's drums sound like ass and the drummer doesn't care about the sound, then I'm most likely gonna Drumagog, in which case it doesn't matter whether the front skin is on or off!

For this genre hands down this.

Try a 'kick tunnel' (as my band call it) if you're after a big, solid sound.

The photo up this thread a bit has a picture.

A couple of times, when recording, we've taken the resonant head of the kick and the batter head of another kick drum and placed them end on end with a rug or something over the join. I think they put one mic in between the 2 kicks and another at the hole in the head of the 2nd one.

Another time we took this round padded stool (the type you might play acoustic guitar while sitting on) right up against the batter head with the front skin of and the massive heavy rug from the floor making a tunnel in front of it.

Experimentation is awesome.

we ended up with the front skin on still, re-skinned the whole kit so tuning the toms took AGES.

I think the snare is still too loud though - i'm waiting for the session files to mix properly. We tried all sorts of OVH positions and a couple of mic setups, 3 different snares and all the bass roll-off/polar patterns we could. I think it could well be inherent in his playing - being metal, its quite aggressive - A learning curve it is though.

Good session, Still caffiene wired so no sleep yet. I'll post up the results when i've got it all back.

We got a good result from an KSM32 on the kick rim incidently

**EDIT** Oh and last night was the first time i've experienced my ears going dead. It was really quick after around 8 or 9 hours I was auditioning mic settings on the 421's and I really noticed my ears not being able to pick out the differences. Note to self - take more breaks

here's a REALLY ROUGH mix - literally haven't compes anything and only quickly stuck a few plug ins on the drums - its Guitar Rig guitars still (re-amping next week)

Brute Strength and PE Equipment

The snare didn't come out as bad as i thought - however, now its all i can hear because i hought about it too much - D'oh!

It's not that the snare sounds too loud, the cymbals don't sound loud enough in comparison. I like the sound of the snare a lot. The toms sound ok, it's just the cymbals sound weak in comparison. This is not a typical drum recording problem. I cannot imagine that your drummer is hitting everything else so weakly.

Are you putting us on?

I didn't turn the OVH's up much because it gives me less control over the snare, which is pretty prominent in the OVH's - good though, glad you mentioned it, I'll make sure i check that.