A few questions about 'new growth' wood

[Mr Songwriter]

I've read a few comments here and there on the web about how guitar makers started using 'new growth' wood a while ago, and how most people think that old growth wood is preferable due to it being denser and more resonant. A couple of questions occured to me:

 

There's a lot of talk about old growth wood being preferred for rosewood fretboards, but I'd be interested to know if it also matters for neck and body woods like Maple, Ash, Alder, etc.

 

I'm also wondering if new growth wood will improve with age? and if so, how does this happen? and how long would it typically take?

[benricci]

I'd be willing to bet in a real world situation, you'd never be able to tell the difference.

[MahaloVision]

It's more of an issue on acoustic tops than with electrics, IMO.

[soundcreation]

I would think there is a huge difference....Check out a piece of old growth wood and you'll see how tight the rings are compared to reforested trees. New wood can just never get that way unless you leave it for a hundred years or how ever long it takes. And that can't happen once you've cut it down.

[C-4]

While old growth trees have many things going for it that new growth trees do not, I believe that the way a piece of wood is aged, the type of finish applied and the costruction process as well, have a lot to do with how it sounds. I, of course would prefer old growth tree wood to new growth tree wood for all the right reasons, but this is not always possible.

 

A guitar company that makes a lot of guitars will possibly want to dry the most wood in the shortest amount of time. Forcing wood to dry out quickly may indeed have an affect on how it winds up sounding, whereas allowing a piece of wood to age naturally, may make for a better built guitar.

 

Having played Gibsons and Fenders all of my playing life, I am now going to have a guitar built by a European company that ages their wood naturally and has a smaller shop. This way, I know that the guitar I will be getting will not have been pushed through as a mass produced shop will do. Additionally, they are very particular about where they get their wood, it's quality, and how it is allowed to dry out.

 

I'm sure however, that the guitar will naturally age and mature in it's tone. It will probably play better in 30 years then it will brand new, but I will not be alive to hear the difference.

 

Of course, this does not guarantee anything, but I've tried it the other way so now I'll try it this way.

[Mr Songwriter]

 

I'd be willing to bet in a real world situation, you'd never be able to tell the difference.

 

 

Ah, so why is it that some guitars just sort of feel and sound soggier (for want of a better word) than others? or is that down to the species of wood being used?

 

 

It's more of an issue on acoustic tops than with electrics, IMO.

 

 

Now that you mention it, a lot of the comments I read were about acoustics.

[benricci]

 

Ah, so why is it that some guitars just sort of feel and sound soggier (for want of a better word) than others? or is that down to the species of wood being used?

 

 

Not sure what "soggier" means, but I'd be willing to bet it has more to do with the type of wood, how it was dried, the construction process, and the finish.

 

I just believe that there are a million factors that go into shaping the way a guitar sounds. I don't buy that the age of the tree is a significant one, especially once you plug it into an amp.

[Mr Songwriter]

I would think there is a huge difference....Check out a piece of old growth wood and you'll see how tight the rings are compared to reforested trees. New wood can just never get that way unless you leave it for a hundred years or how ever long it takes. And that can't happen once you've cut it down.

 

Yes, that's what I was thinking

 

Having played Gibsons and Fenders all of my playing life, I am now going to have a guitar built by a European company that ages their wood naturally and has a smaller shop. This way, I know that the guitar I will be getting will not have been pushed through as a mass produced shop will do. Additionally, they are very particular about where they get their wood, it's quality, and how it is allowed to dry out.

 

That sounds interesting, I am going to have to check a few of those kind of guitars out at some point.

[Mr Songwriter]

 

Not sure what "soggier" means, but I'd be willing to bet it has more to do with the type of wood, how it was dried, the construction process, and the finish. I just believe that there are a million factors that go into shaping the way a guitar sounds. I don't buy that the age of the tree is a significant one, especially once you plug it into an amp.

 

 

What I mean is that it the guitars just do not resonate as well as I'm expecting, in spite of endless adjustments of the action, truss rod, bridge swaps, fret jobs etc, etc....the sustain/resonance I'm getting out of them is still disappointing and if the string sound is being dampened when you play the guitar acoustically I think that's also going to affect the amplified sound.

[benricci]

 

What I mean is that it the guitars just do not resonate as well as I'm expecting, in spite of endless adjustments of the action, truss rod, bridge swaps, fret jobs etc, etc....the sustain/resonance I'm getting out of them is still disappointing and if the string sound is being dampened when you play the guitar acoustically I think that's also going to affect the amplified sound.

 

 

What guitars are you playing?

[Will Chen]

 

Ah, so why is it that some guitars just sort of feel and sound soggier (for want of a better word) than others? or is that down to the species of wood being used?

 

 

Depends...is it the same model guitar built in the same year from the same types of woods with the same type of pickups same electronics and played by the ssame player through the same rig with the only difference being the age of the wood...see where I'm going with this?

[lowbrow]

From what I understand old growth mahogany differs from newer stuff in that it is less dense....IOW a equivalent volume of wood weighs less comparative to new growth mahogany.

 

That is because the actual structural makeup of the wood is different. The cells in old growth are larger and make for a more porous wood when it's dried out. This is because the trees grew faster in the old forrests (that used to exist) because it rained more there due to the ecosystem of the forrest itself.

 

If you compare growth rings between old growth and new growth, you'll find the rings are wider in old growth and more compact in new. Once the wood is properly dried out...which takes years...the sap in these cells crystalizes and makes for a very lively and resonant piece of wood that is not all together very heavy.

 

At least, that's what I think I remember reading on the topic...

 

Most old growth mahogany came of of Honduras from (now) protected forrests. Honduras cut off export of that wood in the early to mid 60's IIRC.

[Mr Songwriter]

 

What guitars are you playing?

 

 

I've got two Korean G&L's (one new and one maybe 6 years old that sounds better) a 2007 MIA Strat and two Korean PRS's, I've also been buying and playing guitars for 25 plus years and I've played hundreds of different guitars in that time, I'm always checking out guitars (both new and used) whenever I get the chance.

 

 

Depends...is it the same model guitar built in the same year from the same types of woods with the same type of pickups same electronics and played by the ssame player through the same rig with the only difference being the age of the wood...see where I'm going with this?

 

 

Yep, I see the point you're making, but I can eliminate all the variables to do with amps and electrics just by comparing the sound of the guitar played acoustically to what I'm used to hearing (I play my electrics unplugged a lot)

[Elias Graves]

One big differece between new growth and old growth wood is the rate at which the tree itself grew. In naturally occurring forests, there is a great deal of genetic diversity even among different specimens of the the same species. Thisis one of nature's ways of protecting a species. Some traits allow a tree to grow fast, some slow. These traits will also affect how the tree reacts to different problems in the environment like drought, flood, fire, pests and so forth. It is these slow growing trees that have the nice tight grain that instrument builders seek.

 

Foresters, on the other hand, select trees that grow fast when replanting, as they produce more wood faster. These faster growing trees are less desireable from an instrment maker's point of view.

 

As far as how it affects the sound of an electric guitar, I have y dobts that there is much difference. In acoustics, probably more.

 

EG

[Mr Songwriter]

 

From what I understand old growth mahogany differs from newer stuff in that it is less dense....IOW a equivalent volume of wood weighs less comparative to new growth mahogany. That is because the actual structural makeup of the wood is different. The cells in old growth are larger and make for a more porous wood when it's dried out. This is because the trees grew faster in the old forrests (that used to exist) because it rained more there due to the ecosystem of the forrest itself. If you compare growth rings between old growth and new growth, you'll find the rings are wider in old growth and more compact in new. Once the wood is properly dried out...which takes years...the sap in these cells crystalizes and makes for a very lively and resonant piece of wood that is not all together very heavy. At least, that's what I think I remember reading on the topic... Most old growth mahogany came of of Honduras from (now) protected forrests. Honduras cut off export of that wood in the early to mid 60's IIRC.

 

 

Interesting, thanks for the info, it's a shame you can't get hold of that stuff anymore.

[Mr Songwriter]

 

One big differece between new growth and old growth wood is the rate at which the tree itself grew. In naturally occurring forests, there is a great deal of genetic diversity even among different specimens of the the same species. Thisis one of nature's ways of protecting a species. Some traits allow a tree to grow fast, some slow. These traits will also affect how the tree reacts to different problems in the environment like drought, flood, fire, pests and so forth. It is these slow growing trees that have the nice tight grain that instrument builders seek. Foresters, on the other hand, select trees that grow fast when replanting, as they produce more wood faster. These faster growing trees are less desireable from an instrment maker's point of view. As far as how it affects the sound of an electric guitar, I have y dobts that there is much difference. In acoustics, probably more. EG

 

 

Great info, thanks!

[crashclc]

 

...Having played Gibsons and Fenders all of my playing life, I am now going to have a guitar built by a European company that ages their wood naturally and has a smaller shop. This way, I know that the guitar I will be getting will not have been pushed through as a mass produced shop will do. Additionally, they are very particular about where they get their wood, it's quality, and how it is allowed to dry out. I'm sure however, that the guitar will naturally age and mature in it's tone. It will probably play better in 30 years then it will brand new, but I will not be alive to hear the difference.Of course, this does not guarantee anything, but I've tried it the other way so now I'll try it this way.

 

 

Not to hijack the thread but... what happened with that weird-ass carbon fiber guitar you were buying? Did that ever show up?

[metallica_00]

Check this out - this is how G&L preps their wood for the USA guitars

 

http://http://www.glguitars.com/factorytour/tour-page2/tour2.asp

 

Wood is really important. I know what you mean about "dead" sounding guitars. I have found it's not so much about acoustic volume or sustain as it is about the harmonic content of the acoustic resonance. And if you think about it...the pickups and amp can exaggerate/reduce the emphasis on certain frequencies. But they can't create harmonics and overtones that aren't there in the first place.

 

I have a modded Squier (new pickups, electronics, etc) and a USA G&L...the Squier is actually louder acoustically, but it has no complexity - it sort of sounds like one big fundamental note. The G&L has a much more balanced sound and when you plug it in its much more complex and balanced across the spectrum. So when I listen to a guitar (which is only really relevant if you are buying the guitar and planning to change components, if it sounds good plugged in in the first place who cares?) I listen to the quality of the sound rather than the volume.

 

Old growth vs. new growth...I don't know. If there are structural differences it will change the way the guitar sounds. They may be beneficial.

[C-4]

 

Not to hijack the thread but... what happened with that weird-ass carbon fiber guitar you were buying? Did that ever show up?

 

 

 

That guitar was ordered last year and is due to be completed very soon. They only make a very limited number of them per month as it takes a person a long time to get the carbon fiber set up correctly.

[mondaymonkey]

hey just a point that needs to picked up, why spend $$$ and the enviroment for old wood, when on strats and some other guitars you mount the F#$%in pickup on cheap 5 dollar pickguards??? (Pun not intended)

[benricci]

 

hey just a point that needs to picked up, why spend $$$ and the enviroment for old wood, when on strats and some other guitars you mount the F#$%in pickup on cheap 5 dollar pickguards??? (Pun not intended)

 

 

I must have missed the pun...

[ihavenofish]

old vs new growth means nothing. as shown in this thread by people writing the complete opposite reasons for one vs the other.

 

on an acoustic (or violin) top, you want tight straigt grain. this type of grain makes the top resonate uniformly and it resists string pull. for spruce, this usually comes on older larger trees as the outside ring get tighter and tighter the larger the diameter. young trees grow fast so their first several decades of groth rings will be wider.

 

this might also be useful on neck wood because a tighter more dense piece of wood might in theory be less prone to warping and twisting. im not sure if this is really true in practice though.

 

for solid bodies, i dont think its specifically meaningful. if you want lighter wood, a younger faster growing tree will have more water, and therefore lose more water when its dried. this isnt always the case though, sometimes the wood just shrinks with water loss and winds up as dense or even more dense than the older growth boards.

 

probably the only meaningful point for solid guitars is that older trees tend to be larger, and therefore able to yield more defect free boards wide enough for guitars. its hard to get clean plantation mahogany for 1 piece guitars. theres usually the odd pin knot here and there because the body blank spans 60-70% of the tree diamtre. this also holds for rosewood. small young twisty trees dont yield all that many quartered fretboards (or any acoustic backs at all).

 

none of this has anything to do with old wood, or aging, which is a whole different argument.

 

to be honest, i think the notion of old growth being "better" is nostalgia. people think a '59 lp sounded good in '59, and it was made of mature honduran mahogany trees.... so they want that. other thing that a '59 sounds good now.... so they want wood cut down 50 years ago in their guitar.

 

its all silly to me. if the luthier just picks out the appropriate wood - young or old, fresh or aged, youll get what your looking for in a guitar.

[guitarcapo]

You know why all these amp guys are replacing the transformers in their amps?

 

It's because it's an expensive component and $ is supposed to equal TONE.

 

Never mind that replacing a few $1 capacitors in the tone stack have a way bigger effect.

 

Now back to WOOD. Old growth wood costs more because it's rarer due to environmental protection, and has been stored longer. Again the hobbyists gravitate to this because $ is supposed to equal tone.

While there might be some cosmetic appeal of old wood, it really doesn't have a tonal advantage. As it's been pointed out, mahogany grown on plantations is less dense and lighter due to rapid groth and might actually be BETTER for making an electric guitar where weight is an issue over cosmetic stuff like how dark the wood is or how many grain lines per inch etc.

 

Don't buy into the hype. If you are looking at an electric, pay attention to the pickups and build quality...not the biologist's taxonomy name for the species of wood used, or the grain line per inch count.

 

If you are looking at an acoustic, the sound is in the soundboard. Quit worrying about the back and sides....

[DaveGrima]

Sometimes I wake up with "new growth Wood"