Self-taught vs trained musicians at the intermediate level

[Jkater]

In the vein of "rock vs classical" threads, but not limited to those styles, I have found that it's in the intermediate level that the most interesting and significant difference occur between musicians who rely on music sheets and those who don't. I have played occasionaly with people who learned to read with "proper" lessons, etc and, while they do a good job at it, they need a music sheet in front of them all the time. Some seem to be hardly able to play anything without one. At that level, the self-taught is often the better musician.

 

With very advanced classical players, I think it's another story.

[Deadbeat Son]

I'm a "self-thaught" musician; I think of myself all of the time!

[jrockbridge]

I don't have a lot of experience with people who read sheet music. Still, I doubt that everyone who reads music proficiently becomes completely dependent on the pages. But, it must be a comfort for some people to have such an elaborate cheat sheet when you can read it fast.

 

I'm self taught and play by ear. I can't read music and know nothing about music theory. Either I was born with a good ear for music or I learned from listening to the radio and records as a young child.

 

Meanwhile, my brother learned music theory and he can read music, but he sometimes struggles with learning pieces by ear. I've noticed that his ear has improved with hard work. Although sheet music can help him learn a tune, I don't think he's particularly fast at reading music. He never uses the sheet music once he's learned a piece.

 

I think it would be a great skill to be able to read sheet music rapidly. I suppose, it is a shame if it becomes a crutch for some. I would find it cumbersome to be tied to sheets of paper. Still, I would find it helpful when first learning a piece of music if I could learn from sheets at a decent pace. I've used tablature here and there and it can be useful for intricate music, but it certainly takes up more room than traditional sheet music.

[Jkater]

I'm a "self-thaught" musician; I think of myself all of the time!

Oops, spelling wrong, eh?

Fixed.

[Growit]

I took a few months of training in my youth. It was enough to learn to read the full first position.

 

Took about 20 units in college and ended up learning what scales are good for.

 

20 something years latter, I like a piece of music in front of me or at lease a fake book the first few times we practice together.

 

And if I am lucky I will get it right after the 3rd beer.

[Jkater]

I don't have a lot of experience with people who read sheet music. Still, I doubt that everyone who reads music proficiently becomes completely dependent on the pages. But, it must be a comfort for some people to have such an elaborate cheat sheet when you can read it fast. I'm self taught and play by ear. I can't read music and know nothing about music theory. Either I was born with a good ear for music or I learned from listening to the radio and records as a young child. Meanwhile, my brother learned music theory and he can read music, but he sometimes struggles with learning pieces by ear. I've noticed that his ear has improved with hard work. Although sheet music can help him learn a tune, I don't think he's particularly fast at reading music. He never uses the sheet music once he's learned a piece. I think it would be a great skill to be able to read sheet music rapidly. I suppose, it is a shame if it becomes a crutch for some. I would find it cumbersome to be tied to sheets of paper. Still, I would find it helpful when first learning a piece of music if I could learn from sheets at a decent pace. I've used tablature here and there and it can be useful for intricate music, but it certainly takes up more room than traditional sheet music.

 

 

Yes, advanced "learned" musicians are less dependant on sheets by way of their considerable experience. I wish I could read music. I "sort of" can, meaning I can learn a piece EXTREMELY slow with standard notation but I need to know the piece in my head beforehand. I'm so bad at it that it's an ordeal to do it and I've done it only a couple of times for pieces I absolutely wanted to learn. Reading chord charts is another matter, I'm reasonably good at it.

 

Interestingly, People who read sometimes tell me they're jealous of those who can play well by ear. And some are dumbfounded when I tell them I can't read music sheets because to them reading is the easier thing.

[Eddie]

Reading sheet music and ear-training are not mutually exclusive skills. I've played with many musicians who are pretty good at doing both.

 

I don't think that for rock/blues guitarists reading sheet music is that important these days. Reading TAB is often sufficient. Even with TAB, I prefer to work on ear-training than on reading.

[twotimingpete]

my brother and I are self taught and I've known plenty of "lesson taught" people too.

 

I think the lesson taught people learn more quickly, but they also turn out to be more generic players, whereas I honestly feel my brother and I are a bit more creative and have more distinct sounds than we would if we were put through the lesson mill like the other kids.

[fw190]

Trained musicians train both their ears and eyes, so it's not really a question of either or.

[Willyguitar]

This depends on how you define intermediate. Being able to read music doesn't mean that you don't have a natural musical ear and know how to improvise, or alter what you are reading. In fact, you are more likely to understand the basic theory of music and therefore know where to go next with a chord or a scale. If they have had plenty of sight reading practice too, they should be able to approximate quickly what they are seeing on the page, so that they are effectively creating 'by ear' fills.

I learned piano from the age of 5 until 18, and although reading music was to some extent stifling (I can improvise better on teh guitar than the piano), it was still the case that with sight reading practice, some of these tricks came. Also I would be able to change and adapt pieces I had effectively learned by heart so that not only did I need the music, but I could change it around a bit. I would only count myself as intermediate - got to grade 7.

[AXEL276]

I took guitar lessons starting at age 12. I continued taking lessons on and off through my 30's. I also studied music theory. I'm going to say first thank you to my parents for having the insight to send me for lessons at such a young age. Second, if anything my ear was improved by studying. In fact a good teacher will include ear training as part of the regiment. I can learn just about any song by ear and rarely ever need sheet music. But when I do come upon something really challenging I am grateful for the skills I acquired during lessons and go for the best quality charts I can find. A good teacher will save you years of trial and error, they will put you right on course. And more importantly, teach you the values of patients and discipline.

To sum up, I remember once going on an audition (for an agency represented cover band, big bucks). I had to sit in a room and play a piece solo on the guitar, no band backup. When I finished the first thing the agent asked was "who did you study with". It shows!

[dabbler]

In the vein of "rock vs classical" threads, but not limited to those styles, I have found that it's in the intermediate level that the most interesting and significant difference occur between musicians who rely on music sheets and those who don't. I have played occasionaly with people who learned to read with "proper" lessons, etc and, while they do a good job at it, they need a music sheet in front of them all the time. Some seem to be hardly able to play anything without one. At that level, the self-taught is often the better musician. With very advanced classical players, I think it's another story.

 

 

IMO, this also says a bit about their teachers. Unless a teacher impresses the need to do both, and simultaneously, few guitarists taking lessons would do them both well, IMO. The reason I feel this is because, doing them together requires a strange concentration.

 

When I'm reading, my mind is pretty fully occupied with looking, recalling what my fingers need to do based on what I'm SEEING, and I am not anticipating what is next based on what I hear. When I'm playing by ear, I am controlling my hands from experience, but I am listening to what is happending so that I can anticipate what I must to next.

 

Funny thing, when I am reading, I'm really not "feeling" the music, know what I mean? So, when I FORCE myself to feel/listen while reading, my reading suffers, I'll miss things, and wind up simplifying to make up for what I missed. And here is another rub. When I read a piece, it is harder for me to memorize it than if I learned it by ear. Wow.

 

So, for any of you out there that ARE teachers, PLEASE make your students develop the talent of reading, listening, and feeling all at the same time. THIS, IMO, is one of the things that separates exceptional and versatile players fom mediocre players like myself... but I'm working on it.

[Angry Tele]

I was in a band with a guy who majored in music in college and Im self taught. The main difference was that I could rock out more than him. He was more cerebral and me visceral I guess (he was also really smart and kind of a nerd) It was great to have him as a writing partner because I would show him a chord progression I was struggling with or looking for a change and he would know where the problem was or what chord would fit next where I would have to use trial and error and my ear. Also he would write like 3 note solos that didn't make sense to me until played againts his bass lines where they became completly badass.

Most of classical theory is piano related and doesn't relate to teh rock but that knowledge helps even when writing punk songs.

[peavey_impact]

I've never taken a single guitar lesson in my life.

I do feel like I've come a long way on my own, but I have developed techniques that are apparently perceived as being "wrong". I think it gives me certain technical advantages and disadvantages. Too late to start over again now

[_pete_]

I've never taken a single guitar lesson in my life. I do feel like I've come a long way on my own, but I have developed techniques that are apparently perceived as being "wrong". I think it gives me certain technical advantages and disadvantages. Too late to start over again now

That describes me exactly. My parents didn't have money for lessons so it was not an option.

I played sax in jr. high school and learned to read music then. I couldn't improvise on sax at all. I was lost without music in front of me.
When I took up guitar, there were no tabs so the only way to learn was by ear. I'm glad I learned that way. I feel it makes you a more expressive player whereas tabs may show you what notes to play, but do little or nothing for timing, feel, and expression. Ear traing is essential if you want to be able to improvise.

[nuke_diver]

I believe you can certainly learn a lot without lessons particularly in the age of the internet where a lot of content/theory is available on line.

However I feel that a good instructor can teach some of those things that others are talking about (feel etc). This is true in my case. My ear is not good and while it is getting better, it is a very slow process...and I'm likely to be dead before it gets to be even reasonable

There are a lot of you that just have it...and lessons would be wasted but others like me lessons are invaluable and I still take them even though the amount of technical knowledge I'm getting now is much less.

[ashasha]

Always wanted to learn theory. I think that my technique from a functional standpoint could be better, but it's not bad. I could of course improve my picking, but that's one of those things that can always be improved.

Everything I do is by ear. Everytime I try to play something that I 'think' should be correct it rarely is. But I can hear something and without knowing what key it is in the truest sense of the word I kind of instinctively know where I need to be almost instantly. Within a few bars I've worked out some shapes and runs and then go from there.

The problem I have right now is that I am in a rut with my licks a lot of the time. I'll catch myself playing very similar shapes and phrases. I'm in the process of trying to break that right now. I have no doubt that if I had more theory that I could just choose another type of scale or even a different key or something.

I think that doing it on your own helps your own style and perhaps with improvisation, but ultimately it will hold you back. I've never felt that knowing more about anything could be a bad thing.

[Eddie]

I believe you can certainly learn a lot without lessons particularly in the age of the internet where a lot of content/theory is available on line. However I feel that a good instructor can teach some of those things that others are talking about (feel etc).

That's a good point. I tell my students that my goal is to make them self-sufficient to the point where they stop taking lessons from me, and point them to books, DVDs, online sites, etc.

Interestingly enough, even with access to these materials they keep coming back for more lessons from me

twotimingpete said that "they also turn out to be more generic players" but in my experience it's quite the opposite. The people I know who have more training (from books/DVDs or with a teacher) are the ones who can really find more ways to express themselves musically.

This is quite evident with people learning the pentatonic minor scale or eventually the Blues scale and playing what they consider to be the "Blues." In contrast to people playing the 5 (or 6) notes in these scales, others use at least 9 notes. Sometimes even 13 notes. (Yes, thirteen).

I'm pretty much self-taught. I've taken less than 10 lessons in 24 years of playing. If I were starting out today, I would definitely find me a good teacher.

[AXEL276]

I've taken lessons for over 10 ten years of the 30 plus that I have been playing now. I know what you guys that haven't are saying. I had a friend who's a music teacher, he plays sax. The guy sucks, no soul. Maybe I am the exception to the rule but I live by the rule "It's not what you know but what you show". Meaning, no one cares how much know if you can't reach out to them musically. I found the lessons and study helped me round out my musical vocabulary. But then again I smoke dope and drink LoL. I like to keep it real...

[aliensporebomb]

 

Yes, advanced "learned" musicians are less dependant on sheets by way of their considerable experience. I wish I could read music. I "sort of" can, meaning I can learn a piece EXTREMELY slow with standard notation but I need to know the piece in my head beforehand. I'm so bad at it that it's an ordeal to do it and I've done it only a couple of times for pieces I absolutely wanted to learn. Reading chord charts is another matter, I'm reasonably good at it. Interestingly, People who read sometimes tell me they're jealous of those who can play well by ear. And some are dumbfounded when I tell them I can't read music sheets because to them reading is the easier thing.

 

 

You and I have the same issue.

 

I was always a slow reader but when I was playing in a church band I had to spruce up and to be honest it helped with my reading speed but after a few years doing that and the church changed their musical approach and went with a smaller band I opted to go my own way musically.

 

When I left after they went to a small quiet folk ensemble, I went back to my "always by ear" method since I didn't need to be reading a score for my own material.

 

When I was in that church band they started playing more and more difficult uptempo gospel jazz stuff that normally would be out of my league but my ear compensates for a lot of my shortcomings and I'd look at the score, if it didn't make sense I'd listen to a CD recording of it and then figure it out that way. After the band went from the crazy jazz stuff to a folk ensemble I didn't even need the

music anymore it was so simple - E, G, C, D etc.

 

All but the most chopsy and difficult stuff I can usually listen to and figure out and then if it's something really intricate and fast I'll check the music for the notes and doublecheck against it.

 

But some people wonder how I can figure stuff out by ear especially if it's something I've never played before. But the local AOR station has pummelled our ears to death with the same 250 songs over the last 20 years. I worked at a place that had the radio on 12 hours a day for years and I just mentally absorbed all of those songs.

 

I can mentally picture most popular rock songs on my head without even making an effort and just know the layout of these tunes after heading them many, many times. Half the time I just guess and I'm usually right if it's something I've never heard before. Rock can be kind of formulaic.