Vocal Chain and Mix Buss ITB Plug in Question.

[boosh]

Okay , I searched for over 24 hours on several forums and the internet. I've read dozens of books and have quite the experience so please don't tell me to hit the search function.

 

I'm trying something new here and was wondering how you guys would chain it.

 

I'm recording vocals for a song and wonder how to put the effects in order.

 

On the vocal track I use :

 

A tube emulation

EQ

Compressor

De-Esser

A tape emulation

A Reverb

 

In that order.

 

On the Mix Buss I use :

 

An EQ

A Compressor

 

In that order.

 

Would you guys when using the same plugins do it differently,... If yes,.. Why?

 

Booshy

[UstadKhanAli]

For vocals, I think I usually do:

 

De-esser (if it needs it)

EQ

(more de-essing if the sibilance is truly foul and I am boosting high-end EQ for "air")

Compressor

Massey Tapehead (tape saturation plugin - I don't always use this on vocals, but I always try it out to see if I like it)

Vocal Rider (Waves plugin that rides the gain on the vocals)

 

I use an auxiliary send for the reverb, so it goes after the rest of this stuff. I often, although not always, will put a compressor before the reverb additionally if I feel it needs it. I also very frequently put an EQ on the reverb, rolling off the lows to avoid mud and rolling off the highs as necessary. I just keep listening as I am doing this until it sounds as musical as I can possibly have it.

 

On the mix buss I usually have:

EQ

Compression

Massey Tapehead

Massey L2007 gain optimization

Waves Renaissance Bass (I don't always use this, but sometimes I like a bit of bass optimization - creates harmonics to make it seem like the bass response is extended)

 

If I am sending my mix to a mastering engineer, then I take off all this stuff except for possibly the Waves Ren Bass.

 

I want to emphasize here that there is no "right" way of doing this. For example, putting the compressor before or after the EQ changes the sound, and one has to monkey around with it and listen very carefully to hear the effects. Same with the de-esser and tape saturation plugins. They change the sound depending on what order you put things in.

[boosh]

Okay I get that,..

So the order I have them in could work also?

I'm going to change the order to see what effect it has but I'm not to far off am I?

[UstadKhanAli]

Does it sound good? That's the final barometer. But sure, switch around the de-esser and EQ if you want, and see if it makes a marked difference. If not, then you're fine.

 

I said that bit about there not being a set way of doing things, not just for you, but for anyone who reads this and thinks that anyone here is saying, "No, dammit, you MUST do it THIS way!!"

[UstadKhanAli]

BTW, what are you recording on and what are you using for the Tape and Tube Saturations? Just curious.

[boosh]

Neundo is my DAW. Antares > Tube,..... Nomad factory > Tape(Magnetic)

[Ernest Buckley]

It sounds like you`ve got a lot going on there. Or maybe I`m just a minimalist. If you`re EQ`ing after tracking, and adding a tube emulator, it sounds like you need to rethink your tracking: consider getting a warmer tone with the mic and pre.

 

I hardly EQ vocals after I track them. I`m getting the sound I want at the Avalon 737 before its going in. For the record, if I have to de-ess, I always put the EQ afterwards.

 

I also do not throw a reverb plug on each channel. I will set up my DAW with AUX channels and send a vocal out to the AUX via a send. Sort of like mixing on a real console. I do this because I find it a lot easier to get a more unified sound and space for all the tracks to sit in.

[John Sayers]

What Ernest said - I also use Nuendo Boosh - I create a group track for lead vocal as I often make up a lead vox from various takes which I assign to the group track. Then I only need one set of effects on the group track. I also do what Ernest said and run the Reverb via aux sends. I rarely use a de-esser but if I do I put it first in the chain on the group track. I don't use any of those simulators and all I have on the main mix track is compression.

[UstadKhanAli]

As I mentioned, I use a de-esser only if it needs it, which for me is maybe about 10-20% of the time. I really try and avoid using this whenever possible. But typically, I'll put the de-esser before the EQ if I do have to use one.

 

I record a lot of ethereal sorts of stuff, and vocals that do a lot of non-traditional stuff, like making pads, so I tend to EQ the high-end to make it airy and shimmery if it's pads. For this, the Massenberg EQ works wonders. I don't, however, EQ to "fix" things, nailing the sound already with the choice of microphones and preamps and all that. I tend to use compression and the Vocal Rider on just about every vocal track.

 

And as mentioned in my first post, I apply reverb via an auxiliary buss. I often use only one reverb so that it "glues" everything together and puts them in a similar space.

 

What I didn't mention was that I sometimes will only use delay on a vocal, or sometimes delay with just a hint of reverb. I'll sometimes have the delay feeding into the reverb as well. And obviously, I'll do this with an auxiliary send as well.

[UstadKhanAli]

Also, while I don't often use tape saturation for vocals, I gotta say...Massey TapeHead rules. I use this on bass and guitar tracks and, quite often, on the mix buss for "glue". Wow.

 

And the Vocal Rider...almost feels like cheating. This is basically like having someone ride the gain for you. Too easy. I've backed way off on compression since I got this. I'll hit a hardware compression going in, and maybe add just a wee bit of compression using a plugin, but almost more for shaping than anything at this point. The Vocal Rider is amazing....between this and the Massey TapeHead...and I rarely get excited about plugins, but these two are pretty great.

 

Do bear in mind that I tend to record a lot of ethereal, experimental, and strange stuff, although obviously, much of this is common sense. I tend to use slightly stranger treatments than the average bear. That said, using auxiliary sends, de-essing (if you must) before EQs, nailing the sound exactly right before it gets to your DAW, etc. still don't change.

[boosh]

Believe me Ken,... I have to use this all because it is "Strange Stuff" I'll tell you more when I come back from work today.

[Anderton]

EQ before compressor and EQ after compressor are very different animals. I'll go into it more later...got up at 7:30AM, flew to LA, spent the whole day there, just got back...so I need to sleeeeeeeeep.

[Ernest Buckley]

 

EQ before compressor and EQ after compressor are very different animals. I'll go into it more later...got up at 7:30AM, flew to LA, spent the whole day there, just got back...so I need to sleeeeeeeeep.

 

 

Yes, depending on the compressor plug, some of them actually detract from the original signal so it depends on what you`re hearing but on occasion I will throw the EQ on after the compressor. Some compressors like the CLA 1176 loses the low end while bringing out the mids a bit.

 

Others will take from the top end so you have to compensate with an EQ. Then of course, that may the perfect sound you`re looking for. Other plugs like the Waves Renaissance and H-Comp are more transparent and in those cases, I EQ before compression.

[boosh]

Okay , here's some more info on the project.

I work with mentally disabled kids and a lot of them have Down Syndrome. I enjoy every day with them and a lot of them are really into music.

A while ago I took up the plan to record them singing but there are somethings that are a bit difficult. For instance : They are scattered over numerous locations through our region that's why I can only use a laptop and a Mic. No Pres or outboard gear.

The De-Esser Plug,....

 

Have you ever heard someone with Down Syndrome speak or sing?

Nuff Said lol.

 

I'm trying to emulate a vocal chain as it would be when you use outboard gear,.. That's why I use the tube plugin to substitute the pre.

 

I'm thinking of calling the guys : "Syndrome of a Down"

[Ernest Buckley]

 

I'm thinking of calling the guys : "Syndrome of a Down"

 

 

Thats awesome, I hope you do. For the record, I have never heard anyone with Down Syndrome sing but they can`t be any worse than this dude...

 

 

[video=youtube;pJRnPn41jqM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJRnPn41jqM&feature=related

[UstadKhanAli]

Cool, Boosh. Use what you hafta to make it work. And yes, I hear kids with Down Syndrome talk just about every day.

[Mudcat007]

In most instances I would put the de-esser at the beginning of the chain and the EQ followng the compressor (although that might vary depending on the effect I was aiming for).

[UltramegaOK]

On vocal track:

 

Cut EQ (or not)

Compress (or not)

Additive EQ, if needed

 

Send to effects group, usually reverb/EQ/mild compression

 

Sometimes also send to a 2nd effects group with different reverb/EQ/compression settings and PAN one group left, the other right for a stereo-reverb spread. It depends on the reverb plug-in, as some of them already have a stereo EQ/Pan control built-in.

 

I tend not to use tape saturation plug-ins on individual tracks, but will on groups if it will help glue multiple tracks in a pleasing way. I have also occasionally used it on the mix bus. I like Bootsy's FerricTDS (tape) and Tesla (transformer) plug-ins.

[LeonardScaper]

EQ before compressor and EQ after compressor are very different animals.

 

I like both animals.

 

And when I have a vocal track that is giving me fits....maybe I didn't get the mic setup just right but I kept it anyway because I liked the vibe.....in those cases I beat it into submission with EQ before and after compression.

 

In fact, on my last project I went to the C4 Multiband comp for the vox after reading some good advise from one of our fellow windmill tilters. Then I added more EQ.

 

Whatever works. Don't stop til you get enough.

[temnov]

I guess I do it differently, and as Craig said EQ before or after compressor is a big deal.

 

My vocal chain while mixing:

 

Compressor is almost always first.

EQ

Vocal Rider

Could be second compressor or de-esser.

Could be one of the Abbey Road Brilliance pack plugin around 10K +2db

 

PT

[UstadKhanAli]

Temnov, why would you put a second compressor after the Vocal Rider? Just curious.

[philbo]

It's always hard to tell what to do without hearing what you're hearing, and without knowing what you'd like to hear.

The final judge should be your ears.

[UstadKhanAli]

That much is certain.

[temnov]

Temnov, why would you put a second compressor after the Vocal Rider? Just curious.

 

Not always, of course. But sometimes I do it to keep the voice "anchored", when it is too dynamic and I want it more stable. Usually it is UAD LA2 or LA3 depending what color I want. It may sound excessive but it works great. As a matter of fact I stole this idea from Craig - he mentioned this option in one of his articles about Vocal Rider.

 

Just finished a mix where I used exactly this technique and it worked great. Main vocal was kind of rap, in close proximity to mic, raspy and deep. I wanted to keep this character up close all the time.

 

First in chain was Liquid Mix compressor followed by LM EQ.

Vocal Rider.

UAD LA2.

[sventvkg]

 

Okay , I searched for over 24 hours on several forums and the internet. I've read dozens of books and have quite the experience so please don't tell me to hit the search function. I'm trying something new here and was wondering how you guys would chain it. I'm recording vocals for a song and wonder how to put the effects in order. On the vocal track I use : A tube emulation EQ Compressor De-Esser A tape emulation A Reverb In that order. On the Mix Buss I use : An EQ A Compressor In that order. Would you guys when using the same plugins do it differently,... If yes,.. Why? Booshy

 

 

I would use the verb on an insert, not on the track. Also on the 2bus It's usually compressor, than EQ. On the track the EQ also after the compressor otherwise you end up compressing your Shaping. YMMV though.