What's the scientific reason for the 1/2 step between the 3rd & 4th, and 7th and 8th

[fatusstratus]

 

I'd have to reread some history but I believe the church outlawed some scales/intervals from they're music as being unpure. (if there is such a thing)

 

 

 

well that and at first harmonic composition beyond organum. The idea there was that composers and performers were using harmonic motion (organum is basically static harmonically speak) to display virtuosity which was prideful and thus sinful

 

Someone up a few posts mentioned the Isacoff book "temperament" -- there's actually two of them written by him "The idea that solved" and "Battleground"

 

they are both good and cover generally the same material

 

then there's the Duffin book from the other side of the fence "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony "

 

 

 

 

Even in my last few compositions, I been focused on refining some Cajun/Rock tune compositions many can identufy with being unique to that area or culture past or present. I'm not from that area. I dont generally listen to alot of the local music from there. I might have a few buckwheet Zydaco albums at home as well as a CCR album or two which most have heard growing up. But thats the magic of being a musician.

 

 

Nothing wrong with that, I mean CCR is a NorCal band, they aren't from "down there" either - they were more like a tribute or revivalist band, sort of a special breed of the folk-rock of NorCal back in the day.

 

An accessible one to check out these days would be "Cocaine Wayne" Toups (plays diatonic squeezebox), they let him out of jail to play Jazz Fest.

[fatusstratus]

 

notes of the major scale? I know it sounds right, but why:confused:

 

 

hey Jeff, someone before me brought up Isacoff's "Temperament"

 

it's a good book that talks about how the scales fit...or don't fit, together.

 

While it does that, it kind of shows how Western scales are developed. They aren't really built from "steps" and "half steps" as a chain of jumps. Those are kind of a side-effects.

[djcl.ear]

 

Another point regarding your "old" theory is that the consonant intervals of fifths etc were chosen exclusively for their Consonance. The other intervals existed they were just avoided. And just another perspective here....who really cares, if Miles were here he would think you are all idiots for fighting over something that doesn't matter.

 

 

Nice points in this thread, apart from some boring fights... but some might disagree.

 

Not long ago I found and intriguing theory about the circle of fifths. Some might also like:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=55785&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

///Best posts from John Hendry on the first page and @ Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:34 pm on the 2nd.

[Goobers]

 

Why do you call the major 7th a raised 7th? Because of the harmonic series? It's pretty clear you are the confused one here, i suggest you hold off on the attitude. "V chords with major thirds in them, and that half step between the 7th and 8th, not as old." On a V chord the step between the 7 and 8 is a whole step. Another point regarding your "old" theory is that the consonant intervals of fifths etc were chosen exclusively for their Consonance. The other intervals existed they were just avoided. And just another perspective here....who really cares, if Miles were here he would think you are all idiots for fighting over something that doesn't matter. Make the notes sound like something. Theory is for children.

 

 

So you're THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid" guy who appears in every thread about music that touches on theory, to suggest that being able to talk about music somehow drains your ability to do it.

 

What a bore.

 

The truth is you can't find a musician, a good one at least, who isn't interested in what it is they do. I've never found one. Everyone I know who has an ounce of musical talent is constantly curious and wants to learn. I do.

 

Besides, this is a friggin forum. Someone asked a question. People tried to answer. Why insult that?

 

And invoking Miles as if you're too cool for school makes my eyes bleed. Miles was Miles because he cared about every single note he played. To say "Theory is for children" is to be THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid guy." It's to be the opposite of Miles. You are the anti-Miles Davis.

 

So it's no surprise that you're also musically confused. Since you're not the only person to fall into the trap of confusing the 7th in the original scale with a 7th in a V chord (people hear "7th"s and think V chords, what can you do?), maybe this'll help clear it up.

 

First, try separating the V chord from a V7.

 

Second, go back to the intervals in the original question, the

[Goobers]

 

Yep. Every serious book I've read says that musical reaction is learned.... it's hard to believe, but there ya go... Popular song form....is also learned... the whole Verse/Verse/Bridge/Chorus concept is learned. Granted probably most of us learn it as tiny kids. When you were newborn, you were introduced to the concept of the Octave........ because your Mom & Dad's voices were one octave apart.

 

 

My beloved assistant, Rudolph Von Hagglewort, mentioned serious books that suggest the opposite, and also brought up Pythagorus, whose mathematical observations underscore that this isn't some arbitrary cultural happenstance. So maybe it's some of each: part learned, part math.

[roomjello]

 

So you're THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid" guy who appears in every thread about music that touches on theory, to suggest that being able to talk about music somehow drains your ability to do it.   What a bore.   The truth is you can't find a musician, a good one at least, who isn't interested in what it is they do. I've never found one. Everyone I know who has an ounce of musical talent is constantly curious and wants to learn. I do.   Besides, this is a friggin forum. Someone asked a question. People tried to answer. Why insult that?   And invoking Miles as if you're too cool for school makes my eyes bleed. Miles was Miles because he cared about every single note he played. To say "Theory is for children" is to be THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid guy." It's to be the opposite of Miles. You are the anti-Miles Davis.   So it's no surprise that you're also musically confused. Since you're not the only person to fall into the trap of confusing the 7th in the original scale with a 7th in a V chord (people hear "7th"s and think V chords, what can you do?), maybe this'll help clear it up.   First, try separating the V chord from a V7.   Second, go back to the intervals in the original question, the

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

So you're THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid" guy who appears in every thread about music that touches on theory, to suggest that being able to talk about music somehow drains your ability to do it.   What a bore.   The truth is you can't find a musician, a good one at least, who isn't interested in what it is they do. I've never found one. Everyone I know who has an ounce of musical talent is constantly curious and wants to learn. I do.   Besides, this is a friggin forum. Someone asked a question. People tried to answer. Why insult that?   And invoking Miles as if you're too cool for school makes my eyes bleed. Miles was Miles because he cared about every single note he played. To say "Theory is for children" is to be THAT guy, the predictable, superior, "theory is stupid guy." It's to be the opposite of Miles. You are the anti-Miles Davis.   So it's no surprise that you're also musically confused. Since you're not the only person to fall into the trap of confusing the 7th in the original scale with a 7th in a V chord (people hear "7th"s and think V chords, what can you do?), maybe this'll help clear it up.   First, try separating the V chord from a V7.   Second, go back to the intervals in the original question, the

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

You are not sorry.

 

You are an arrogant asshole, and all of your posts here show that you have no clue about music theory.

 

 

I'm sorry you're still confused. I'm not sure if you have a genuine interest in music or are just trolling, but if you have a specific question like the original poster, I'd be happy to try and answer or I'm sure someone else with some music training would also be happy to jump in. Your responses are something that seem to happen a lot on the internet. Someone with limited knowledge will quote wikipedia or another canned source to declare "look! here's something I know!" but they miss the underlying issue so their response is not all that relevant. For example, you might as well have said "reason for 1/2 steps?: A bustle is a type of framework used to expand the fullness or support the drapery of the back of a woman's dress, occurring predominantly in the mid-to-late 19th century. Bustles were worn under the skirt in the back, just below the waist, to keep the skirt from dragging. Heavy fabric tended to pull the back of a skirt down and flatten it. Thus, a woman's petticoated or crinolined skirt would lose its shape during everyday wear (from merely sitting down or moving about)." Actually, quoting Wikipedia about bustles might have been more helpful than your prior response. Like fashion, terminology changes. The terminology of "major chord," or "major 7th" didn't develop until well after their use. When Heinrich Glarean recognized the Ionion mode in the"Dodecachordon" in 1547, I'm not sure he used the term "major 7th" to describe its second largest interval. Of course, he didn't have access to Wikipedia, or to you. If you do have an interest in this, I'm sure someone would be happy to put all your Rainman cut and pasting into some kind of meaningful context. I did pay attention in theory 101 which is why I know the answer to this question and I'd be happy to give any question you might have a shot. But I don't pretend to be an expert, and there's other people here who would likely do a better job of clarifying your confusion than I can.

 

[Extreme Mixing]

This is not a very fun group of people to talk about music with.

 

If you think that one has to know about the science of music to play music then you are wrong.

 

If you think that if one knows the science of music then he can't play then you're wrong, too.

 

Most people who are great musicians know things about music. It's a language. Some can speak it. Some can read and write it. Some can do both. You guys are fighting about nothing. I didn't read Goobers as saying that the V chord has a half step between the 7 and the 8 of the G7 chord. Of course he was talking about the 7 and 8 of the home key of C. He said so when he said the B instead of the Bb in the Key of C. You, of course, know that. Do you think that by playing ignorant that you make your case stronger or more persuasive?

 

This is a hostile place.

 

Steve

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

If you think that one has to know about the science of music to play music then you are wrong. If you think that if one knows the science of music then he can't play then you're wrong, too.

 

 

 

Discuss that with Samuel Barber, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Aaron Copeland, Herbie Hancock, Count Basie, Frank Zazza, Quincy Jones, Igor Stravinsky... they have the time to listen to your questions. I do not have the time to discuss what's wrong and what is right with an amateur, I am still alive and have to compose every day.

 

Getting an education in harmony, is something you can do with the help of books, or attending harmony classes at a university, the one in Texas is fabulous, as well many other universities.

 

Btw, I know plenty of amateurs who have the same concepts and knowledge about harmony, songwriting and coposisition as us professional musician.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

Most people who are great musicians know things about music. It's a language. Some can speak it. Some can read and write it. Some can do both. You guys are fighting about nothing. I didn't read Goobers as saying that the V chord has a half step between the 7 and the 8 of the G7 chord. Of course he was talking about the 7 and 8 of the home key of C. He said so when he said the B instead of the Bb in the Key of C. You, of course, know that. Do you think that by playing ignorant that you make your case stronger or more persuasive?

 

 

Music is not a language, only the teminology musician communicate with is a language. What music is, can not really be defined as a general. Every musician has its own explanation what music is for him, as well every recipient has his ideas what it is, and what it is good for in his life. And it doesn't matter if the musician is a well known one, or if he bought a recorder half 'n hour ago in a music shop. As well it doesn't matter what the reasons are that people listen to music.

 

 

How do you wanna play with musicians, or discuss a song during a session, when you do not know the theory, nor do know the terminology. What do you do when your fellow musician tells you:

 

"Play a V7b9 at the place of the mixolydian V7 (9/13)"

 

- Do you know what the cadencial function is of a V7b9?

- Do you know what a V7b9 can follow as next chord?

- Do you know what the chord-scale is of V7b9?

- Do you know what the voice leading is when a V7b9 is in the progression?

- Do you know how to improvise a solo over whatever dominant chord there is in place?

- What do you know about all the dominanth seventh chords at all? Only the mixolydian V, or V7?

 

This, and similar questions for all 8 possible dominant chord type. Do you even know what all the dominant chord types are, in major tonalities as well minor tonaities?

 

- Someone here said that the major scale is the winner, in the the sense that it is the most used scale in the common era. This is maybe 50% percent true for the common practice period form 1760 to 1820, but in this era there where as much minor tonlities as there where major tonalities.

[Lee Knight]

 

This is not a very fun group of people to talk about music with.

 

 

I agree 100%. If I have in any way added to this ridiculous cock comparison party, I retract any and everything I've said here. For the sake of my self respect. I just love music. How nerdy is cock size compensation via music theory knowledge. What's next, Star Wars geeks being the epitome of cool?

 

"Dude! That doesn't even look like a real light saber!!! What a spaz!!!"

[roomjello]

I wanna know why the termed raised 7th is used ever or at all? That's why i am here.

Although my cock is pretty huge, i've no need to prove it.

[halfnote]

I started to read the whole thread; not to respond to any particular idea/argument but to see if what I offer here had benn covered.

 

There are scientific reasons for the desing of music, no matter what the culture.

These are not identical world-wide but they are more consistent than not.

 

Lee Knght pointed to the overtone series & that's significant. Any study of it reveals how the notes in scales are chosen.

Acoustic science is the key.

 

Keep in mind, too, that even within a well documented field such as Western music theory, there are regular reinventions of protocol.

As for other musics, most of them will tend toward similarities.

Octave duplication? Almost constant, except for the tricky fact that the further away from any pitch, the further the discrepancy of exact pitch...yes, even for octaves !

Same applies for 5ths, 3rds, etc.

All cultures & styles within those cultures will vary.

Take gamelan, no 2 traditional orchestras are tuned the same.

 

Overall you will note that, despite cultural diffs, tonalities centered around octave & 5ths will generally be present.

Thirds somewhat less but stiil there.

[stunningly, 3rds didn't even become even somewhat common in recognized theory[/] til English folkies threw them into the mix sometime after 1500...although they were used in European folk forms as well as around the world.]

 

The expressive quality of any musical idea/interval is what gives it power & a place in how theory evolves.

That's why so much of this, with variation, is common to humanity.

 

A final note on what we hear & how it becomes "standard" to our brain.

I mentioned that practice & theory evolve (the first leads the other...consider jazz).

I if we learn from sharp teachers our ears develop well.

If we learn on flawed instruments, we hear mistakes as "proper".

Consider the effect of modern tempered tunings toward what we consider correct.

Thats' one reason why choral vocal music is so powerful; it bypasses the standard tuning system(s) to resonate with what feels proper to us physically.

 

I suggest Stuart Isacoff's tome on the development of tempered tuning [Temperament: the Idea That Solved Music'c Greatest Riddle] as massively enlightening...as well as an introduction to why Pythagarus was close to a quack who twisted his discoveries to fit his ideas rather than the other way round.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

I wanna know why the termed raised 7th is used ever or at all? That's why i am here.

 

 

 

This is called augmenting, not raised.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Overtones

 

When our Western temperament would be based on the natural overtones of a horn tube, then the fourth would be +52 cent to high compared to the equal temperament.

 

When our today's temperament would be based on the natural harmonics of a string, then the fouth would be ?29 to low compared to the equal temperament.

 

The natural harmonics 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6., 8, 9. 10. 12. 15. build the just intonation intervals. Since most music in Europe and America is based on the equal temperament today, intonating in just intervals is either willingly, or pure accident.

 

However singing, e.g choirs with no accompagniement by an equal temperament tuned instrument, then the singers intonate in just intervals with not much thought about it.

[Kendrix]

Ive never thought about it this way.

However, its true.

All those overtones, each comprising its own "note" are in one pluck of one guitar string/piano key.

Very kewl perspective.

Its a "within you /without you" concept applied to notes and scales.

 

The Overtone Series Play a C note. In that complex waveform is really a series of notes. In just that one note, it's really not just one note. There's C. Then an octave up is another C. Then a 5th above, a G. This is all in that simple C note. It's physics. It's what we're naturally hearing, though reduced in amplitude. Then another C at the next octave. Then... then... an E. ?!? A major 3rd. It's there. All in that single C note. So, why an F? Why that half step as Jeff asks? Well, first off, the whole tone scale sounds pretty funky for pop music. Or folk, the music of the people. And that'd miss the 5th anyway. That 5th's in the natural overtone series. We need to tap into that sucker. It's powerful. Ask Angus, Malcolm and Pete. So... ...we skipped the idea of the whole tone to tap into the power of the overtone series, then added a note between the E and G. And... that F (IV) sounds great. It leads to that very intrinsic 5th. Hey! I IV V! That works... So yes, it was an artistic choice, but one based on the intrinsic physics of a single note and its overtone series. Note the flatted 7th in the overtone series. Ah... blues! Our responses to these intervals are based on what was already there to a certain degree. (But if the b7 is in the overtone series, why does a major scale use the 1/2 to make it what we call a major 7th? Shouldn't it by a b7???) Coulda been. But... ?

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

The overtones in that notated example, not one harmonic is the exact pitch the notation shows, but are as far off as one quarter tone. For example, the minor sixth (13th harmonic) is +41 cent too high, about in the middle of the notes A flat and and A natural.

[roomjello]

A quick correction to keep our Goobsy on the right track were he to be watching:

The series of notes posted above, and in fact those that are whole number multiples of the fundamental should be called harmonics, not overtones.

The harmonic series

-C1 32.7 cps

-C2 65.4 cps

-G2 98.1 cps (65.4 plus 32.7)

-C3 130.8 cps

-E3 163.5 cps (130.8 plus 32.7) *********** Notice here the note is sharpened in equal temperament as our regular E3 is 164.8 cps

(The min7th comes quite early in the series btw, which is why i keep asking if that is why the major 7th is referred to as raised)

 

Overtones should be referring to the non proportional partials of a fundamental, timbrel resonances etc.

[Lee Knight]

 

The overtones in that notated example, not one harmonic is the exact pitch the notation shows, but are as far off as one quarter tone. For example, the minor sixth (13th harmonic) is +41 cent too high, about in the middle of the notes A flat and and A natural.

 

 

And how far off is a Scottish piper's 5th? And yet still it stirs the soul.

[roomjello]

 

And how far off is a Scottish piper's 5th? And yet still it stirs the soul.

 

 

Yeah, but....... isn't that if he is like...... over a couple of neighborhoods away?

I guess he may Doppler all out of tune and {censored} tho.

[nice keetee]

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

And how far off is a Scottish piper's 5th? And yet still it stirs the soul.

 

 

+2 cent

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Overtones and harmonics are the same thing. Overtones are the upper partials above the fundamental. The fundamental tone and the overtones together are called partials.

 

Fundamental tone = 1st harmonic = 1st partial

1st overtone = 2nd harmonic = 2nd partial

 

Different names, same tones.

[Lee Knight]

+2 cent

 

The piper's you've heard were sober then!