Got FEK'd by PLEK'd - A Continuation of my Epi LP Slash Guitar Thread.

[GAS Man]

Rather than bumping this old thread and hoping you'd read all the way down to find out why it was bumped -

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2708775-What-I-ve-learned-so-far-about-my-EPIPHONE-%28YES-MADE-IN-CHINA!!%29-Slash-AFD-Les-Paul

 

I thought I'd just start a new one.

 

In that thread I talked about the good and bad of that guitar and mentioned that I thought it also needed some fret leveling.

 

Took it to an authorized Gibson tech for warranty work on the broken toggle and turns out the fret level wasn't the cause of the buzz.

 

The tech spotted almost immediately that the problem wasn't the frets but the nut slots were cut too low. I came back the next day with my own set of feeler gauges to double check his assertion, and sure enough. When I held down the low E on the third fret, it was touching the top of the first fret.

 

I was quite surprised that I hadn't noticed that since I know enough to check for that. I even took the risk of insulting the man by coming in the next day with my own feeler gauges, but sho 'nuff I had indeed missed that during my own set up and initial evaluation (thought I had indeed checked it ).

 

Here's the funny part

 

You look on the Gibson site which brings up the Epiphone AFD Slash LP specs

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Epiphone/Slash-Appetite-Les-Paul-Standard/Specs.aspx

and on the lower left you see:

 

Nut

Material Synthetic Bone Substitute

Width 1-11/16"

Slots Gibson PLEK System

 

The tech found that when I was in his shop because he has to order a new nut and wanted to look up and get the right material, he chuckled a bit when he saw the "PLEK System" notation and remarked that "the old way is still the best way".

 

Anyway, I thought this was worth posting that the PLEK system is not necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

 

Good news for me though because it will all be covered under warranty, whereas, a fret leveling (unless it was way out of spec) would not have been.

 

So PLEK is FEK'd. Or at least "can be". But I know some folks will say, "yeah, if it's coming out of China", and maybe that's true, but the PLEK system was supposed to be infallible.

 

It also doesn't bode too well for the Sweetwater "55 Point Inspection" http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/buy_guitars/55pointevaluation.php as it appeared that my guitar had simply had the action cranked higher and higher until the buzz had stopped, until it was a hand cramper out of the box. I got it down to only a "medium" action before I had upper (towards neck) fret buzz.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd share more on "what I've learned about my Epi Slash"

[w00dsy]

maybe it was a chinese Plek system I must admit i didn't realise the Plek machines did the nut as well, i thought it just levelled frets. Interesting, thanks for the info

[cratz2]

Well, there is no excuse for not checking the things you are supposed to check, but perhaps since the Plek machine is 'infallible', Sweetwater doesn't check that.

 

I will say that I've played a number of guitars AT Sweetwater that have been Pleked on their in-house Plek machine and they are consistently amazing. Not always perfect, but pretty damn good.

 

As for the nut issue, Gibson 'techs' have been well known to cut nuts too low for quite a while. The local Gibson Authorized Repair shop in town is (or at least 'was') a smaller shop and the tech's number one job there was replacing nuts that were cut too low from the factory. Not sure if it's a tolerance issue or a desire to make the guitars feel like they have low action when in fact, the action is too low, but it seems to be somewhat of a known problem. I am not a Gibson basher.

 

Either way, how does it play now? Did the tech finish the setup after cutting the nut?

 

That's a damn good looking guitar, my friend.

[bsman]

maybe it was a chinese Prek system

 

FYP, in a terribly racist, insensitive, but hopefully funny (if you're a fan, as I am of "A Christmas Story") way...

[w00dsy]

FYP, in a terribly racist, insensitive, but hopefully funny (if you're a fan, as I am of "A Christmas Story") way...

 

 

i lol'd, and slapped myself for missing the opportunity. Well played sir.

[DaleH]

Plek is only as good as the peron setting it up.

[flatheadpete]

Seriousry....that was funny.

[thefallacy]

had a old tele done a number of years back and quite liked the way it came out. they didn't mess with the nut though, AFAIK.

[GAS Man]

Either way, how does it play now? Did the tech finish the setup after cutting the nut? That's a damn good looking guitar, my friend.

 

 

THANKS my friend!

 

No, this tech is one of those Musician/Guitar Techs who's your typical starving artist/ADD type of temperament. Just remembering to send the e-mail to Gibson to say he needs a nut blank could take him days . I'm hoping I'll have it back before my stepson arrives for NY's weekend, cuz I'd like to see him put it through the paces as well. But I've had this tech do this type of work for me before on 3 other guitars and he does do a good job. He even told me a story over drinks last Monday of working on John Entwistle's bass guitar (when he worked for Alembic) and the guy saying, "you're the first one to get it right". Apparently John liked his action so low that the strings would buzz a bit on each string. He said he asked John why he liked it that way,and John showed him that his fingers were double jointed and he played the bass with a percussive strike which created a smaller string orbit. So if he could make John happy, I'm sure it will be swell when it comes back. But it has been a bit of an ordeal for a $999 MAP guitar.

[docjeffrey]

Gibson is saving a lot of $$ using the PLEK system. Most of the guitars subjected to the PLEK are probably just fine, but as soon as Gibson ships the guitar, all bets are off. Changes in temperature and humidity are going to cause the neck, fretboard and nut to expand and contract. The body might swell or shrink causing the bridge to be too high or too low. Then there are the physical bumps, shakes, and jolts that occur during shipping. Once a guitar has been slammed around in the back of a delivery truck, be prepared to do some work, especially on a brand new guitar that hasn't yet settled in.

 

Bottom line: By the time the consumer takes delivery, a lot has changed since the guitar has been PLEK'd even if you buy the guitar from a brick and mortar retailer. That's why it's so important to be like Gas Man and learn how to set up your instrument to your own preferences.

[GAS Man]

^^ Indeed true doc and that's exactly what I and the guitar tech thought had happened until we checked the nut. It had simply been cut too low.

 

My tech uses a "fret at 3rd fret and the gap at first fret (between fret top and string) s/b 1/2 the width of the string gauge you use" method.

 

Part of the reason I ran into his shop to check it myself was to see if it at least met Dan Erlewine's lower specs. He suggests that when fretting at the 3rd fret that the gap be at least .004" on the treble side and .008" on the bass side. On this guitar, I couldn't even slip the .004" on top of the first fret of the low E. It was touching. So this tech I'm using would go for something more like .023 to .005. I think that should actually allow for a more level height down the length of the strings than Dan's specs.

[jamdogg]

 

Plek is only as good as the peron setting it up.

 

 

Yes, its a garbage in - garbage out system.

[GAS Man]

Yes, its a garbage in - garbage out system.

 

Apparently so. But the spiel most of us had been led to believe was, "place neck in, out comes perfectly leveled intonated neck".

 

They may indeed need refinements to the "Prek" system.

[thefallacy]

I had a couple pretty dinged frets and a little wear here and there, on an '82 model.., I think a PLEK job has the potential to extend the professional playable life of a well worn instrument, before a re-fretting becomes necessity. jmo.

[sylvesterlowery]

THANKS my friend! No, this tech is one of those Musician/Guitar Techs who's your typical starving artist/ADD type of temperament. Just remembering to send the e-mail to Gibson to say he needs a nut blank could take him days . I'm hoping I'll have it back before my stepson arrives for NY's weekend, cuz I'd like to see him put it through the paces as well. But I've had this tech do this type of work for me before on 3 other guitars and he does do a good job. He even told me a story over drinks last Monday of working on Pete Entwistle's bass guitar and the guy saying, "you're the first one to get it right". Apparently Pete liked his action so low that the strings would buzz a bit on each string. He said he asked Pete why he liked it that way,and Pete showed him that his fingers were double jointed and he played the bass with a percussive strike which created a smaller string orbit. So if he can make Pete happy, I'm sure it will be swell when it comes back. But it has been a bit of an ordeal for a $999 MAP guitar.

 

Errrr...Pete Entwistle?

 

You mean John Entwistle?

 

Anyway, glad you are getting it all sorted out!

[Angry Tele]

lol @ Pete Entwistle

[GAS Man]

Hey, give me a break here fellows, I drink heavily.

 

May not have been a Freudian slip, but it certainly was a John Entwistle/Pete Townshend slip.

[sylvesterlowery]

Hey, give me a break here fellows, I drink heavily. May not have been a Freudian slip, but it certainly was a John Entwistle/Pete Townshend slip.

 

LOL, just {censored}ing with ya!

I'm having a JD and Coke night here, gotta get my yuks somewhere!

And it's not the first time I've ever seen that mistake in print.

I've seen paid writers {censored} up the names of band members so badly it makes me wonder if they've even bothered to listen to the music.

[GAS Man]

LOL, just {censored}ing with ya! I'm having a JD and Coke night here, gotta get my yuks somewhere! And it's not the first time I've ever seen that mistake in print. I've seen paid writers {censored} up the names of band members so badly it makes me wonder if they've even bothered to listen to the music.

 

The funny thing about that story, is this tech is a bass player. He looks quite a bit like Donald Duck Dunn. We were talking over some whiskeys (me picking up the tab ) and he rattled off a few names of his favorite bass players. He had omitted John Entwistle and I told him, "Now I'm not a bass player, but my favorite bass player of all time is John Entwistle because I loved the way he played so many of the lead lines for The Who. And that's when he launched into his story where he was indeed a big fan. He said he used to have a recurring dream of meeting John Entwistle and getting a bass lesson from him. So when he worked at Alembic he was assigned to set up a new bass for John according to his specs. John liked the work so much, he wanted to meet him. That lead to him also getting a back stage pass at which time John asked what he could do for "David". David responded that he'd like to have a bass lesson from John. He said, "what do you want to know". He mentioned a song of theirs that he wanted to know how John played it. John said, "well how did you figure it out, first show me". David said he played the riff and John said, "that's exactly how I did it". It was like a dream for him come true.

 

Now me, I have had this recurring dream where I'm partying with the Rolling Stones in the South of France, commiserating with Mick about what a bitch Bianca was and asking Keith, "hey Keith, could you show me that riff?". But that's never happened, but David thinks recurring dreams do come true. His did; I won't bank on mine.

 

Now David also contends that he got in John's face about his "condition" at a NAMM convention and John told him to "Piss Off!" Two days later John passed away. Don't know about the validity of the story and how good of "friends" they had become, but it was worth the price of a few whiskeys.

[Jkater]

 

Plek is only as good as the peron setting it up.

 

 

Maybe it was an argentinian plek machine.

[tiltsta]

My guess is that daleH is spot on. PLEK system is just a tool, and the user probably can {censored} it up every once and a while.

 

My LP standard was PLEK'd, and it has simply amazing fretwork and a perfect nut, so the system can work great, sometimes. I've have heard a few ramblings on the LP forum about PLEK'd Gibsons having some nuts not cut deep enough, so gibson must have gotten the Chinese factory worker who {censored}ed up the PLek machine at the Epi factory a green card.

[thick_mike]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I didn't know John Entwistle had died. Not a big fan of t' 'oo, but I clearly remember as a child listening to my friend's copy of Boris the Spider.

 

[YOUTUBE]bvFuUaCe8eY[/YOUTUBE]

 

We loved that song when we were about 11. Certainly a very impressive bassist, can't understand how I didn't hear the news!

[Argh! Zombies!]

I didn't know the nut had to be any higher than 'not buzzing when you play open strings' height.

[Angry Tele]

wow...He was great. My favorite song he wrote was Heaven and Hell:

[video=youtube;H5BUQzN8pl4]

 

We loved that song when we were about 11. Certainly a very impressive bassist, can't understand how I didn't hear the news!

[catalinagooseV2]

When I had my Les Paul PLEK'd, he cut the nut by hand. The PLEK machine only did the frets.