Does a real Gibson really smoke a Epiphone by a mile?

[Willyguitar]

 

As for the tele's I would immediately suspect the neck pocket.

 

 

Now, you see, there's something I think is completely blown out of proportion... most people 'spot' a neck pocket gap down the side of the pocket, but that is not the point at which very much resonance is passing at all - it is nearly all through the base and the bottom of the neck. And then the vast majority of people would be 'OK' with a very very thin neck pocket (of say a piece of paper width), but not one of half a cm width, even though the effect on the resonance would be exactly the same, since there is no contact.

[webwarmiller]

 

Now, you see, there's something I think is completely blown out of proportion... most people 'spot' a neck pocket gap down the side of the pocket, but that is not the point at which very much resonance is passing at all - it is nearly all through the base and the bottom of the neck. And then the vast majority of people would be 'OK' with a very very thin neck pocket (of say a piece of paper width), but not one of half a cm width, even though the effect on the resonance would be exactly the same, since there is no contact.

 

 

Don't disagree with you at all actually. But If I was holding two bolt-on guitars that were supposedly identical and one resonated acoustically much better than the other then I'm going to first suspect the neck pocket. Here's something I do to EVERY bolt-on guitar I deal with. When tuned to pitch I loosen each neck screw about 1/4 a turn with the hopes of the neck getting pulled tighter into the pocket. I then tighten them back up. On some guitars this will have a dramatic effect on them....others ZERO.

[Willyguitar]

^^ Fair ding dong.

[webwarmiller]

 

^^ Fair ding dong.

 

 

BTW, found the Cinder Block Guitar videos: http://www.lashbrookguitars.com/video3.html

[photon9]

BTW, found the Cinder Block Guitar videos: http://www.lashbrookguitars.com/video3.html

 

 

Cool. Someone should make one with a magentic pup and see what happens.

[scuzzo]

there are just lots of vids and stuff of skunk baxter and steve Morris..
playing the hell out of lucite guitars... not a bit of wood on those cept the neck,,,
tell me.. skunk baxter has bad tone... this whole good wood bad wood thing,,
come on now... when fender started the last thing on his mind was wood quality..
its not about the wood.. as long as it hold down the bridge you can make any solid object a guitar.. when les built his first guitar its was a rail road tie.. electric guitars just do not behave like acoustic.. so the tonal qualites are completely different for solid bodies at least..

but believe what you will, spin all sorts of fluffy talk about "well this company uses inferior wood"... meh.. once its leaves the phone jack on the guitar its on its way to complete defilement by the pedals or those little glassy tubes and filiments or what ever... the prestine signal is gone the min.. a pickup grabs the vib from the string..

perhaps Lucite is just a really good tone wood..?

[Reignman]

LMFAO!!!!

Yes... Gibson does smoke Epiphone... Are there good playing epiphone guitars? Absolutely..... Are the majority I play kind of crap? Yea, but they're a $400 guitar...

In all reality I've never played a Gibson that was just complete {censored} from the factory... Have their been hiccups here and there? Absolutely... But all fan boying aside I would love it if a $400 guitar smoked my Deluxe, my Customs etc... Trust me, I'd own em.

I've played some Samick made Epiphones that were very nicely put together...

[Willyguitar]

 

there are just lots of vids and stuff of skunk baxter and steve Morris.. playing the hell out of lucite guitars... not a bit of wood on those cept the neck,,, tell me.. skunk baxter has bad tone... this whole good wood bad wood thing,, come on now... when fender started the last thing on his mind was wood quality.. its not about the wood.. as long as it hold down the bridge you can make any solid object a guitar.. when les built his first guitar its was a rail road tie.. electric guitars just do not behave like acoustic.. so the tonal qualites are completely different for solid bodies at least.. but believe what you will, spin all sorts of fluffy talk about "well this company uses inferior wood"... meh.. once its leaves the phone jack on the guitar its on its way to complete defilement by the pedals or those little glassy tubes and filiments or what ever... the prestine signal is gone the min.. a pickup grabs the vib from the string.. perhaps Lucite is just a really good tone wood..?

 

 

You're right actually - I get great sounds out of a broom handle I once converted into a guitar. It only has two strings, but it's just as good as any other guitar I've ever played. There's not neck pocket to worry about either.

[ashasha]

 

I'll actually disagree with you as I think wood quality is EXTREMELY overrated when it comes to a solid-body electric guitar. All those '10 tops' used on PRS's or the ultra figured tops on Gibson's are chosen based on looks alone. The most obvious example is spalted maple.....'spalted' sounds more exotic than 'rotten' which is what it really is. Hell, even birdseyes are technically a defect in the wood. From a structural standpoint both are inferior woods. I've never heard a 'bad' tonewood; I've heard guitars where the pickups were ill matched to a particular guitar but that's not the wood's fault. I've heard teles made out of MDF that sounded fantastic.....there's even a youtube video out there of a guitar made out of a cinder block that sounds very good. Every played a Gibson SG Zoot Suit? it's stained and laminated Birch (freaking plywood). Guess what, they sound great to my ears.

 

All I know is that I can sit down at almost any guitar store and take any Epiphone LP off the rack and any Gibson LP off the rack, sit there without plugging into an amp and they will sound completely different to me. I can sit there and do that with any two Epiphones and any two Gibsons as well, but the Gibson will almost always sound fuller and have more resonance. All things taken into consideration I really have to believe that it comes down to the wood.

 

And I'm with Reignman, you can find good and bad in both, but I have yet to find that $400 guitar that sounds better because I've spent years looking for it. I'm cheap, I'm not just saying that because if it said "I'm a pedophile" on the headstock and it sounded great I'd buy the damn thing and put a sticker on it.

[soldierblue]

Literally everything past a point is a case diminishing returns. I get surprised how many people don't seem to get this. Just how good do you expect things to be? That's what it's about. Some people, it's like they expect something twice as expensive to be twice as "good". And what's better anyways? People throw better or worse around like it's science.

 

Here's what I can tell you. Epiphones exist. Gibsons exist. I've played some I like. I've played some I don't like. If I didn't like it, I didn't buy it or at least didn't keep it. The bad ones don't affect me in the sense that, if I don't like it, I don't have to keep it.

[TraumaRN]

Truthfully, I really don't think Gibson produces a descent playing guitar for less than 1K. An Epi Elitist really is 2x the guitar Gibson produced for the same price- probably why the Elitist line was dc'd. I was lucky enough to pick up an Elitist SG on closeout a few years back for less than $400 and it surpasses a Gibson US Standard easily without question. You can't have a Foreign Nation producing better guitars than the Parent Co. (Gibson) can ya?
Now people are scrambling to pick up Japanese made Edwards,Burnys,Epi Elitists, etc-etc for one simple reason. They are BETTER guitars and a much better value than the product Gibson {censored}s onto your plate on a daily basis.

[frankthomson]

yea, the only epi i had that even came close to a gibby was an elitist.

[Darkstorm]

"Does a real Gibson really smoke a Epiphone by a mile?" Imo no they dont and epiphones qc is actually much better in comparrison.

[Flintc]

You can find junk in any price range, QA problems regardless of brand name. So while recognizing that QA issues are real and junk is an important consideration, let's just assume for discussion that you have enough sense to put the junk back (or send it back).

Now, just looking at the well-made guitars, what exactly makes an expensive ($2K+) guitar that much better than an inexpensive ($500 or less) guitar? It's probably not the wood - both use the same basic woods, mahogany and ash and alder and maple. It's probably not the craftsmanship or production, because remember we're not considering the lemons here. You simply won't find bad intonation today; they all use the same machines. Pickup quality, however, varies a LOT. In general, pickups with a sound you really like, tend to cost a bunch more than pickups you don't like, and it doesn't much matter who you are. There's a lot of consensus on what's a better pickup, and correlation with cost is quite high.

There are also some intangibles. Sometimes a given design is only available at the top end. Or exotic top woods. Intangibles are just taste, but there's enough commonality in taste so that companies can ask, AND GET, more money for some cosmetic touches.

I have guitars and basses ranging from $3K+ down to under $200, new. Nearly all of these were carefully examined before purchase (can't do that with a custom build), and I wouldn't hesistate to take any of them to a gig (though the expensive ones might depend on the gig). And IN GENERAL I find that the guitars I like better and play more, tend to be the more expensive ones. These just have a sound, a balance, an attention to detail that comes through in small ways.

Are they 5 to 7 times better than the cheap ones? I wouldn't have spent 5 to 7 times more for some of them if they weren't worth it. But last month, I went to GC looking for a guitar that met a certain sound and feel I was looking for and didn't have, price no object, and I found it! It happened to be a $350 Epiphone. I love it. It narrowly beat out a $3000 Gibson. The Gibson had a better sound and sure looked sexier, but the Epiphone had the overall edge - good looks, light weight, good sound, better fingerboard.

So to me, the moral is that usually if you pay more, you get more. But not always. The secret to getting your money's worth is you gotta know EXACTLY what you're looking for when you look. And be willing to spend whatever it takes to get it.

[BoneNut]

Yeah it is very sad and it ought to be /thread for all of the Gibson QC deniers. Straight from the horse's mouth: The problems are real

 

 

Agreed.

 

What's really sad though is that it's only a factual drop in oceans and oceans of bull{censored} publicity stating over and over that "Only Gibson is good enough". Well that and a bunch of endorsees who I'm sure are sincere and don't do it for any monetary benefit.

 

Seems people are more inclined to believe ads and rock stars than a guy that was actually an employee in what was voted as America

[_Idioteque_]

Elitists>Studio Gibsons, but I'd never say an LP Custom is inferior to an Elitist

[hardtdc]

Here again, who can raise their hands and say they have enough experience playing say carved top ES335 and also play a plywood body EPI dot? Few would be able to tell you why one sounds better over another I imagine. They may know that sounds different but they have littel knowlege as to why.

 

 

I know it won't be because of the carved top ES 335. 335s are a laminate body construction just like Epi Dots.

[jerry_picker]

A Gibson may not be worth 5 to 10 times what a Epi is worth but it still smokes an Epi. If I see a person on stage playing an Epi LP, my general impression is that either he's poor or that he'd rather spend all his money on tattoos.

 

Yeah, like Nancy Wilson, Colin Raye, or Ace Frehley.

[jerry_picker]

I know it won't be because of the carved top ES 335. 335s are a laminate body construction just like Epi Dots.

 

True. However there was some talk about how the "better" tops were 3-ply while the "regular" tops were 5-ply.

 

Here are pics: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?1181456-The-Epi-Sheraton-USA-has-arrived!!!&p=15408771&viewfull=1#post15408771

[fretmonster]

To me there is a much bigger difference between an Epi and a Gibson than between an MIM Fender and an MIA. If this weren't true, I think we'd be talking about MIC Gibsons and MIA Gibsons. And yes I do think it comes down to the wood, the hardware and the finish. To me, a good MIM Fender is just a nut and a trem-block away from a good MIA (if the extra fret is not a dealbreaker), but an Epi is a mile or maybe a mile and a half away. Even after you change out the pickups, the pots, the bridge and the talpiece, you are still left with the mystery wood and the finish. To me, resonance is a very big part of the equation, which leads to even tone, and harmonic complexity. Not so much of an issue if you specialize in high gain I suppose.

[jerry_picker]

To me there is a much bigger difference between an Epi and a Gibson than between an MIM Fender and an MIA. If this weren't true, I think we'd be talking about MIC Gibsons and MIA Gibsons. And yes I do think it comes down to the wood, the hardware and the finish. To me, a good MIM Fender is just a nut and a trem-block away from a good MIA (if the extra fret is not a dealbreaker), but an Epi is a mile or maybe a mile and a half away. Even after you change out the pickups, the pots, the bridge and the talpiece, you are still left with the mystery wood and the finish. To me, resonance is a very big part of the equation, which leads to even tone, and harmonic complexity. Not so much of an issue if you specialize in high gain I suppose.

 

What about MIJ Epis (Elite and Elitist) and USA Epiphones? I'd say those meet or exceed the materials, fit, finish, and playability of comparable model Gibsons.

[fretmonster]

What about MIJ Epis (Elite and Elitist) and USA Epiphones? I'd say those meet or exceed the materials, fit, finish, and playability of comparable model Gibsons.

That goes without saying Jerry and is evident on the one hand with the Elitist distinction and on the other by the fact that the USA Epis were made either A) before Gibson acquired them or B) before Gibson decided on its' present marketing strategy. My argument was directed at the subject matter tacitly and directly identified by the OP.




Does a real Gibson really smoke an Epiphone by a mile?

[bjcarl]

How about those of us who have a couple of gibsons but would rather gig w/an epi?

[ashasha]

What about MIJ Epis (Elite and Elitist) and USA Epiphones? I'd say those meet or exceed the materials, fit, finish, and playability of comparable model Gibsons.

 

I'd love to try out an Elitist based on what I've heard and I may have missed the boat on them....but (and just hear me out), who's to say that they are clearly superior to a regular Epiphone? There are countless claims out there about Epiphones in general vs Gibsons and while on paper it makes sense I've never been able to prove them right.

 

So as someone who's never gotten to play an Elitist it could just be a case of overzealous claims again. Probably not the case, but it does get me wondering.

 

I've bought too many things based on what people on the internet say in the past and came away disappointed so yeah, I'm very suspicious these days.

 

I'm also probably in the minority here as well, but I think that the last year or so of the MIC Epiphone stuff is on par and in many cases better than a lot of the MIK stuff I've played over the years. They had some real turds coming out when they first started up, but they've made incredible strides and even though I don't like the way they sound the fit and finish is consistently very good (within reason; a $100 guitar isn't going to be as well dressed as a $500 one).

[jerry_picker]

I'd love to try out an Elitist based on what I've heard and I may have missed the boat on them....but (and just hear me out), who's to say that they are clearly superior to a regular Epiphone? There are countless claims out there about Epiphones in general vs Gibsons and while on paper it makes sense I've never been able to prove them right. So as someone who's never gotten to play an Elitist it could just be a case of overzealous claims again. Probably not the case, but it does get me wondering. I've bought too many things based on what people on the internet say in the past and came away disappointed so yeah, I'm very suspicious these days. I'm also probably in the minority here as well, but I think that the last year or so of the MIC Epiphone stuff is on par and in many cases better than a lot of the MIK stuff I've played over the years. They had some real turds coming out when they first started up, but they've made incredible strides and even though I don't like the way they sound the fit and finish is consistently very good (within reason; a $100 guitar isn't going to be as well dressed as a $500 one).

 

I've been out of the loop a while, and didn't realize that Gibson discontinued the recent USA Epiphone models.

I did buy a USA Sheraton II 1964 RI at an MF blow-out sale a few years back, and it is gorgeous and excellent. It absolutely beat the pants of my (otherwise very good) MIK Sher II. Further, it is at least as good as recent production Gibson ES-335s I have played (and certainly prettier).

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?1197421-Sheraton-Vs.-Dot&p=15702475&viewfull=1#post15702475

 

Then again, we are talking about a guitar that had a list price up there with a Gibson ES-335.

 

If the OP is about what you can buy new, right now, I really can't say much.

But if it encompasses the Epiphones and Gibsons of the past decade, there are examples where Epi meets/exceeds Gibson.