End of the tower?

[blue2blue]

Actually there's a story behind that. I really like my PC Audio Labs 8-core desktop, and I asked if they'd integrate a 64-bit video-oriented laptop for me. They said "we don't do video" and I said "Yes you do, just add more RAM, better graphics, and a bigger hard drive." So they did, and I took it to Winter NAMM 2009 to test out. It ran on Vista-64 (and still does...guess I should upgrade to W7 one of these days, but it's working, so...). They were really nervous about it, they had visions of the thing causing me all kinds of problems because it was unexplored territory for them. The head of the company even gave me his cell phone number so I could call in case of disaster. But it worked perfectly, and I've been using it for trade show coverage ever since, as well as seminars and DJ sets.

Ah, yes. I actually remember reading that back then... so many ones and zeros under the data bridge...

 

 

I certainly share your philsophy of, if it works, don't upgrade it. (Er... I guess that's obvious from my posts in this thread. 5 year old econo-box, 32 bit XP... )

[MikeRivers]

what I'm looking forward to is new audio interfaces with better dynamic range and Thunderbolt connectivity and then I

[MikeRivers]

I believe there is already a Thunderbolt peripheral that handles four PCIe cards...if not, then it's a Real Soon Now product.

 

Well, that's pretty cool, but why not just put the PCIe cards in the chassis like a real computer does? Yeah, I know, so you can use them with a laptop.

 

Is the puppy chasing his tail here?

[blue2blue]

[temnov]

Better dynamic range? Audio interfaces, even the garden variety, already have more dynamic range than anyone can use. You might get more channels with Thunderthud (if your computer is up to it) if they decide to build interfaces with more channels but 8 seems to be a pretty acceptable number. Most people recording today, it seems, don't have more than 8 microphones if that many, unless they're PA mics. And with so many virtual synths as instruments, they don't need a lot of line inputs even if they're just a place to keep everything plugged in all the time.

Mike, I'm recording classical and jazz music mostly, I have around 20 channels of really good pre-amps and good mics, and dynamic range is important for me. I'm thinking about RME UFX with 118 dB RMS range, 113-115 dB SNR on inputs. Three of my pres can give me up 80 dB gain range and I use bunch of different ribbon mics. It's better to get this range available

Another thing I use outboard compressor and couple of different pre-amps and some other things for processing and different colors. It's important as well to get the best converter possible and you know this, too.

[veracohr]

I use a Macbook Pro that is about 4 years old. It's great, I don't lack for power in any way for what I need. The only problem I've had with it is heat. The logic board has died twice since I've had it (once within the 3-year extended warranty and once outside); I expect it to die at least once more before I can afford an entirely new Macbook Pro (I need the Pro for the ExpressCard 34 slot, for my UAD-2). I'm pretty sure these problems have been due to heat. This thing gets very hot at times, mostly from these activities:

 

Audio (Digital Peformer, Live)

Steaming movies (Netflix)

Gaming (Civilization 4)

 

I think it would be great to have a Mac desktop, even though it would be total overkill for my needs (since Mac Pros are so incredibly powerful, and I just make music). If I had the money I would have a Mac desktop and laptop. I feel that the desktop (hopefully) wouldn't have the heat problems the laptop does.

 

Maybe the newer laptops are better, I don't know.

[MikeRivers]

Mike, I'm recording classical and jazz music mostly, I have around 20 channels of really good pre-amps and good mics, and dynamic range is important for me. I'm thinking about RME UFX with 118 dB RMS range, 113-115 dB SNR on inputs. Three of my pres can give me up 80 dB gain range and I use bunch of different ribbon mics. It's better to get this range available

 

Clearly with that much invested in mics and preamps, you don't want a converter with 60 dB of dynamic range, but any converter will give you better than 90 dB of dynamic range, which is more than normal humans can listen to comfortably.

Another thing I use outboard compressor and couple of different pre-amps and some other things for processing and different colors. It's important as well to get the best converter possible and you know this, too.

 

Yes, I think you should use the best converter that your budget will allow, since you're already using good preamps and mics (and I assume your monitors are up to snuff, too). But there are more parameters that determine "best" converters than the single parameter of dynamic range. You really can't determine the overall quality of a converter by a single specification, particularly since you don't even know how they measured it. Have you done any listening?

 

If you start comparing the spec sheet for converters in roughly the same price/quality range, you might see differences of a few dB in dynamic range or S/N, but they're all so low that, all other things being equal, quiescent noise will be so low that you can't hear it. But linearity at low levels close to the noise floor might be different, so might spectral purity. Not even THD+N will tell you the whole story. Some forms of distortion are more audible than others even though the percentage number is the same. Or a high number might sound better than a low number.

 

All I'm saying is that when you want the best, you can't just compare the spec sheet numbers of S/N or dynamic range.

[WRGKMC]

 

I use a Macbook Pro that is about 4 years old. It's great, I don't lack for power in any way for what I need. The only problem I've had with it is heat. The logic board has died twice since I've had it (once within the 3-year extended warranty and once outside); I expect it to die at least once more before I can afford an entirely new Macbook Pro (I need the Pro for the ExpressCard 34 slot, for my UAD-2). I'm pretty sure these problems have been due to heat. This thing gets very hot at times, mostly from these activities: Audio (Digital Peformer, Live) Steaming movies (Netflix) Gaming (Civilization 4) I think it would be great to have a Mac desktop, even though it would be total overkill for my needs (since Mac Pros are so incredibly powerful, and I just make music). If I had the money I would have a Mac desktop and laptop. I feel that the desktop (hopefully) wouldn't have the heat problems the laptop does. Maybe the newer laptops are better, I don't know.

 

 

Get yourself a docking station that has a good cooling system built in. They can keep the temp way down and well worth the money for Peripheral acccess.

[Geoff Grace]

End of the tower? I'm not sure I'd go that far; but speaking as an Apple consumer, the company seems to be investing firstly in iOS devices, secondly in all-in-one Macs--laptops and iMacs--and lastly in towers.

 

Certainly, adding the ability to access fast hard drives and PCI cards makes all-in-one computers more competitive for pro work. However, once you begin carrying around external hard drives and PCI cards, these devices lose their all-in-one advantage over towers, which have internal drives and PCI cards. Furthermore, at least in Apple's product line, towers still allow more RAM--32 GB, while iMacs top out at 16 GB and laptops at 8 GB. Until these ceilings become equal, towers are in no danger when it comes to RAM intensive work such as using orchestral libraries.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Anderton]

 

Well, that's pretty cool, but why not just put the PCIe cards in the chassis like a real computer does?

 

 

I believe these kinds of devices are more for backwards compatibility. For example, if you've been using a PCI card-based interface, you don't want to have to throw it away just because you buy a computer that doesn't have PCI slots.

 

I think towers are going to be going away faster than most people think. The RAM limit Geoff mentions - RAM just keeps getting less expensive, and RAM limitations won't be an issue soon. I also expect that computers will at some point more or less standardize on using an SSD drive for the OS, and more programs will install assuming that the data goes somewhere other than the system drive (we're already pretty much there, actually). So you main computer will be quiet, run cool, have a bunch of RAM, and then you choose your peripherals based on your particular needs. In other words, the computer itself will become more standardized, while the interconnectivity becomes more customizable.

 

You'll see this happen first in businesses, when they replace old-style towers with smaller computers that make less noise and draw less power. It will essentially go back to the terminal model, with interconnectivity to a much bigger, centralized "brain."

[WRGKMC]

Companies will likely switch to MRAM (Magnetoresistive random access memory) sometime in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_random_access_memory

Companies are holding off making the change over to magnetic memory because it will cost several billion to retool their manufactureing plants.

Its not a favorable economy to take those gambels right now, plus all the hardware manufacturers need to be on board before thay do it.

Again its not the economy for that.

 

With the issues in Japan and how its influenced all the major companies including Sony, I dont see jack

happening for another 5 years. All the major companies are treadding water at this point.

Its not that all the big companies were hurt, its that many of the smaller separate contractors that manufacturer the individual parts

are wiped out completely and all of those have to be rebuilt, people trained etc.

 

Manufacturers are keeping the extent of the devistation very well hidden. The whole Toyota fiasco is a perfect example as to why.

They have pulled out all the stops for acquiring whatever parts they can including pooling all resources worldwide.

 

Sellers are being starved for many new products on large scales.

Much of the assembly is done in China, Tiwan etc but the raw materials all come from Japan.

The resources normally used in R&D have all been shifted to more immediate needs.

My companies factories weren't even scratched but companies are so interdependant with each other, All are affected.

 

You can believe things are going change quickly, get smaller. For consumers, sure, it likely will.

But thats complete chump change in comparison to what what major corporations spend when they do company wide upgrades.

Most are still running XP boxes. Nothing, major is happening on a business levels right now.

Companies are only buying because they have to to meet immediate needs.

 

I dont see any of that changing soon and wouldnt even speculate for at least 2 years minimum.

Realistically, 5 years looks like the window at this moment for changes to begin and after having been through this senario

many times in the past I know it takes 2~5 years to implement any major products to the field.

And thats a highly optomistic prediction.

[Alndln2]

Desktops are slowly dissapearing from the market place in favor of laptops, and unfortunately for musicians the consumer dictates the computer market as the pro sector is too small. It's not up to the pro market wether desktop/towers stick around. Apple also knows where it's bread is buttered.

[Huh?]

I like the idea of having my main audio recording files and sample libraries located inside the computer along with the system drive.

Also what about Pro Tools HD, UAD-2 and other PCI based audio solutions that need a PCI bus?

But yes.......I'd imagine there are many changes ahead that will be unsettling for many.

[MikeRivers]

are more for backwards compatibility. For example, if you've been using a PCI card-based interface, you don't want to have to throw it away just because you buy a computer that doesn't have PCI slots.

 

. . . . uh . . . like a laptop. But at least for a while yet, you have a choice. Chances are you can still get a desktop for as long as you want to continue using that "legacy" PCI card. More likely you'll have an operating system for which there's no driver before you won't be able to buy a computer in which there are no compatible bus slots.

 

I've had a Digigram VX Pocket (PCMCIA card) in three different laptops since about 1999. My netbook has no motherboard bus expansion slots at all (but it does have an SD card slot) and chances are my next notebook, if there's one in my future (doubtful) will have only an ExpressCard slot. But I could get a Win7 driver for it if I needed one.

 

I think towers are going to be going away faster than most people think. The RAM limit Geoff mentions - RAM just keeps getting less expensive, and RAM limitations won't be an issue soon.

 

I think that somebody-or-other's principle is at work here. RAM got cheap 10 years ago, then computers started needing more RAM. It may be as cheap or cheaper than ever per megabyte, but it still costs more to feed a hungry computer than it did back when 1 or 2 Gigabytes was plenty. I think the last time I bought RAM, I paid about $10 a piece for two 1 GB sticks and that maxed out my studio computer. Now a paltry 8 GB (quick look at the Micro Center web site) runs $120 to $180 depending on speed and configuration. But I guess that if you want a new computer, that's what ya gotta have.

 

I also expect that computers will at some point more or less standardize on using an SSD drive for the OS, and more programs will install assuming that the data goes somewhere other than the system drive

 

I've actually been thinking about putting an SSD drive in one of my Mackie hard disk recorders just for kicks. They don't come with an IDE interface so there'll be an adapter in between the motherboard and a SATA drive (already tried that with a standard hard drive and it works) but they'll have to get cheaper since it really won't make the recorder any better. Last 80 GB IDE drives I bought (just last month) cost $15.

 

You'll see this happen first in businesses, when they replace old-style towers with smaller computers that make less noise and draw less power. It will essentially go back to the terminal model, with interconnectivity to a much bigger, centralized "brain."

 

Oh, I don't doubt it. The time-shared mainframe downtown was a pretty good idea back when computing was really expensive. It'll probably come back to that eventually. But you know I'm 10 years older than you, and probably 20 years behind you in computers. So I'm not going to worry about how this no-more-tower revolution will affect my life.

[MikeRivers]

Oh, and today at the local used computer store I saw a pile of Dell desktops (smaller than what I'd call a tower) set up with Ubuntu, for $25, and $49 would get you a full tower sized Dell (like I have a few of here) with the same software/applications setup. It's no good for running Sonar or Pro Tools, but the average grandma who wanted to check out the kids' Facebook pictures or send email wouldn't know it from Windows or MacOS.

 

But they had a couple of 15" MacBook Pros with 4 GB RAM and Core 2 CPU for $900 including a dead battery. Such a deal!

[Lee Flier]

 

No, I don't mean Tower Records...that's long gone. I mean tower computers. I only recall seeing one at Summer NAMM; the rest of the computer-based world was iPads and Smarphones.

 

 

Well, that probably has more to do with the NAMM environment than anything else. I'm sure someone would rather haul a bunch of laptops to a trade show than a bunch of towers, as long as the laptop is good enough to run demos. There are also people who are willing to shell out pretty big bucks to get a laptop that will perform as well as the best towers. But I still think the average person who needs a "hotdog" machine for audio, video, graphics and the like is going to prefer a tower for some time to come, as a really good tower is still going to perform better under heavy loads, and be a lot cheaper than a comparable laptop.

 

I'm sure that'll change eventually, and laptops will perform every bit as well as any tower could for the same price, and then the tower will go away. I don't think we're quite there yet, though, and I don't know that it'll happen anytime soon.

[MikeRivers]

 

I'm sure that'll change eventually, and laptops will perform every bit as well as any tower could for the same price, and then the tower will go away. I don't think we're quite there yet, though, and I don't know that it'll happen anytime soon.

 

 

Performance isn't really the issue, it's interfacing with other hardware. For applications where everything is built into the computer, there's no problem. When it has to talk to other devices, like for example audio interfaces for recording, then there has to be a way to do that. There's bound to be a transition period during which users will just have to resign themselves to the fact that they can't use their old hardware any longer - not that it no longer works as well as it needs to, but that it doesn't work at all with the computer they have to buy.

 

The pro/hobbyist audio industry doesn't move as fast as the computer hardware industry, so there's likely to be a gap between when your new computer won't have a Firewire port and there's a suitable audio I/O box with, for example, a Thunderbolt port. Printers, monitors, game controllers . . interfaces to the Internet . . they'll come along PDQ. But we'll have to nurse our old computers along for a while yet, and then instead of buying just one new thing (the computer) we'll have to buy two or three new things together.

[Lee Flier]

 

Performance isn't really the issue, it's interfacing with other hardware. For applications where everything is built into the computer, there's no problem. When it has to talk to other devices, like for example audio interfaces for recording, then there has to be a way to do that.

 

 

Well, of course. But like Craig said, the way to do that already exists. Sure, I still have a couple of cards that I like, and computers to put them in, but not for my primary DAW. There are so many FireWire and USB audio interfaces these days, at all price levels, that it seems crazy to buy anything else in this day and age. It's nice to be able to make your DAW portable when you need to, even if you have a tower computer as your primary DAW.

 

So unless you're running old hardware that you're hell bent on keeping, the difference between a tower and a laptop is ALL about performance/price. As it is for me. I can hook up my Allen & Heath board to my laptop if I really have to, but it doesn't perform as well and I'd have to spend twice what I did for my tower to get a comparable laptop.

[MikeRivers]

 

There are so many FireWire and USB audio interfaces these days, at all price levels, that it seems crazy to buy anything else in this day and age. It's nice to be able to make your DAW portable when you need to, even if you have a tower computer as your primary DAW.

 

 

But part of the point is that the next generation of computers (both towers and laptops, even many laptops of this generation) have no Firewire port and no way to add one. So it doesn't make sense to buy a new Firewire audio interface today. But you can't buy one yet for the next generation's interface either. There's nothing for Thunderbolt and nothing for USB3 (will that go away with the coming of Thunderbolt? Do the new Macs have it?) yet. If your present interface went up in smoke next week, you're going to have to either retire for a while or buy something that will be orphaned by your next computer. And that always pisses people off.

 

 

So unless you're running old hardware that you're hell bent on keeping, the difference between a tower and a laptop is ALL about performance/price.

 

 

Ah, but many of us are running old hardware that, while we're not hell bent on keeping, we're not in a hurry to replace, and we don't want to feel compelled to replace it simply because there's a good reason (performance for sure) to replace the computer part of the system.

 

For most users in the audio field, we don't need to improve performance of the audio interface because we don't need more input or output streams or higher sample rates (and those who do are probably already prepared to replace their audio hardware as well as the computer), we need more memory and faster processing to handle more, and more complex software-based DSP tools (processing plug-ins and virtual instruments).

 

 

As it is for me. I can hook up my Allen & Heath board to my laptop if I really have to, but it doesn't perform as well and I'd have to spend twice what I did for my tower to get a comparable laptop.

 

 

What part doesn't perform as well? Can you not get 16 channels in and out with your laptop? Or is the problem that when you're mixing or playing a virtual instrument live, your laptop can't handle all of the plug-ins that your tower can?

 

A tower will always be cheaper than a laptop for the same level of performance (if you can even compare that fairly) because it's cheaper to manufacture and it doesn't include the keyboard and monitor. So your next laptop will have no Firewire port, maybe a USB port for "legacy" support, and a Thunderbolt port. So if you want to use your 32" monitor with it when you're working in the studio, you'll need a new monitor with a Thunderbolt input. Or at least a Thunderbolt-to-video converter if they start making those. And I doubt there will be a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire converter for the same reason there's no USB-Firewire converter - it takes too many smarts.

 

Most computer users, particularly audio computer users, really don't think like system engineers and are often surprised and disappointed at what they find themselves stuck with.

[WRGKMC]

The whole key to this is money. Supply and demand.

You have the computer manufacturers, the peripheral manufacturers and the software manufacturers.

They all work together to make a profit. Lately mobil devices have become more popular because they offer more

mobile power. The drawback is the things are near obsolite by the time they are made available.

Theres no question they are making money on them, but the cost is coming down now bacause of market saturation.

 

Computer manufacturers are not going to remove the ports from their devices unless they offer the peripheral manufacturers

a good alternative. Something like a USB port isnt going away any time soon. It would put nearly all printer manufacturers out of business.

And since many Computer manufacturers also manufacturer printers, why would they be so stupid in eliminating that port unless that have

a better way of communicating with that peripheral?

 

Then you have the chip manufacturers who make the chips for all devices. Eliminating ports would eliminate peripheral manufacturing wouldnt it?

No enginner geek in Japan is going to dictate what technology will be sold no matter how good it is.

He's not a salesman. He may design something the sales people can use to beat the competition in sales, but it does come down to the publics needs.

None of those people have jobs if the public doesnt buy product.

 

Most manufacturers now sell both business and consumer products. You cannot judge trends by only one brance of the computing industry like mobile computing.

If you could, you could retire earl;ey buying stock in those companies. The companies have a tiered system. The consumer level mobile devices are sold in bulk to

places like Comp USA, Best Buy, K Mart etc. These devices make a profit by being sold in bulk. The other tiers of products are usually sold to businesses through direct sales.

The equipment is usually heavy duty and often sold on 5 year leases. Companies know technology changes and dont want to get stuck with a bunch of obsolite equipment.

The used equipment gets taken back by the leasing companies and sold off to the highest bidder. These may be local dealerships that sell used equipment, or they may be sold

to other countries, Cannada, Mexico, South America, etc. They may refurb them and sell them to their owncustomers.

 

This has been going on for the 30 years i been in the business and dont see it changing any time soon.

 

Again, I dont see manufacturers changing this world wide model any time soon. A PC manufacturer is going to be making money off that used equipment

in those third world countries as well. Theres no sence in killing a cash cow for the sake of new technology. An this is why these so called predictions

of trends arent any better than a SiFy novel.

 

Laptops used to have all the ports because the public demanded it. If they were given the option of having the port one one model at the same price

as another that didnt have it, 9 times out of 10, the product that had it would sell it.

If Firewire peripheral manufacturers dont make any products, have no power to demand the port is installed in computers, then the port will dissapear.

If you ask me, the audio manufacturers that do use firewire are on a path to destroying their businesses through overpricing. They should have never let USB

take over on the low end and should have made low cost firewire devices available. but there probibly alot more there involving chip designs and Apples

rights on that technology.

 

Right now alot of mobile devices are doing what they are supposed to do technology wise. They are freeing the user from being tied to land to get things done.

Software works hand in hand with the hardware manufacturers. If the software isnt simple, powerful and and productive for businesses,

then theres no reason for a business to buy that software. Again Supply and Demand.

 

Audio recording isnt going away. No more than digital video, or any other business that requires a computer.

Manufacturers love mobile devices because the people who buy them have tha cash to buy another when they become obsolite.

Saturation is never reached that way and the manufacturers have a continued income. In higer tech industries like audio and video,

stand alone devices that fit that mobile model have pretty much gone the way of the doe-doe bird. Why, because technical types

found a PC does a better job hands down. So long as they do, there will be someone out there earning a living off the audio industry

selling them software and hardware.

[Lee Knight]

[MikeRivers]

 

You have the computer manufacturers, the peripheral manufacturers and the software manufacturers. They all work together to make a profit.

 

 

That's true. But people aren't using peripherals the way they used to . . except for us audio folks. Printers, these days, seem to get most of their use printing photos. Offices are (still) fighting tooth-and-nail to go paperless and it's been a long time that individual employees had printers at their desk and proofread their work from a paper copy. And, sheesh, you don't even have to print out your airline boarding pass any more. You can have it sent to your smart phone and have its display scanned at the airport.

 

There's still a good market for external disk drives because some people still feel comfortable backing up their stuff, but that'll go away for the "cloud generation," With off-the-shelf computers coming with terabyte drives, there's really no need for an external drive to store those photos and videos that wouldn't fit on the last computer's internal drive. So the availability of peripherals is becoming less important to computer manufacturers. And of course if they're pushing laptops, there's no need for an external keyboard, monitor, and mouse.

 

But computer manufacturers don't tell Mackie or Avid or PreSonus or MOTU or Focusrite that they're doing away with the ways that those companies have, for the past 8-10 years, been using to connect their audio hardware. Hopefully they'll find out through the grapevine.

 

 

Computer manufacturers are not going to remove the ports from their devices unless they offer the peripheral manufacturers a good alternative.

 

 

They've already pretty much eliminated Firewire ports except for those who know how to add one externally, and those provisions are going away, too. This may be good riddance because there have always been interoperability issues with Firewire audio devices (they don't make standards like RS-232, or even MIDI, any more). But I don't see the companies who make multi-channel audio interfaces reworking their Firewire audio products yet for USB or something else like that.

 

 

Something like a USB port isnt going away any time soon. It would put nearly all printer manufacturers out of business.

 

 

I dunno. It will probably change the way we use and build printers. There are already printers with a display and a memory card slot. They haven't built Photoshop into them yet, but you can do cropping and color correction right on the printer. Maybe the printer manufacturers will be the ones building in the USB port with a disk drive host so you can plug your camera directly into the printer.

 

My printer (I think it's going on about 5 years now) doesn't connect to my computer via USB, it has an IP address and connects to my network router. I can print to it from any computer on my network. If my dumb phone was a little smarter I could probably print from that, too. So maybe it'll be the printer and camera manufacturers will get together and tell the computer manufacturers to go pound sand.

 

 

Then you have the chip manufacturers who make the chips for all devices. Eliminating ports would eliminate peripheral manufacturing wouldnt it?

 

 

It would certainly simplify it. Same for writing hardware drivers.

 

 

Companies know technology changes and dont want to get stuck with a bunch of obsolite equipment.

 

 

They've figured that out years ago. They just sell what's left to the big box stores that specialize in high tech trailing edge technology and the people who buy those (and not the manufacturers) find themselves with obsolete equipment on their hands.

 

 

The used equipment gets taken back by the leasing companies and sold off to the highest bidder.

 

 

Like my local used computer store. They're the ones selling Dells loaded with Ubuntu for twenty five bucks. The leasing company made their money and this is just a simpler and cheaper way of recycling. There are some organizations who collect old computers and send them to third world countries trying to become second world countries. But they won't accept my Intel 386 and 486 computers. That's why I have one down in the basement with a 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" floppy drives and a QIC tape drive.

 

 

Laptops used to have all the ports because the public demanded it.

 

 

No, they had all those ports because they were modeled after desktop computers that had all of those ports. When laptops were new, people were using them as desktop replacements as much as portable computers (spawning the 1-1/2 hour battery with the long life battery as an extra cost option for those who were really using them as portables). It was only when laptop manufacturers found that the users weren't using all those different ports so they left them off and saved some money. I made sure the last (desktop) computer for my studio had a parallel printer port so I could use the dongle for my obsolete copy of Sequoia, a program that I don't use often enough to justify the $2500 or so upgrade cost for a newer version that uses a USB dongle.

 

 

If you ask me, the audio manufacturers that do use firewire are on a path to destroying their businesses through overpricing. They should have never let USB take over on the low end and should have made low cost firewire devices available

 

 

There's already pretty much that division. You don't see many low end Firewire audio devices, and I can' think of fewer than a handful of USB audio devices that I'd consider high end, and even fewer that offer more than eight channels of I/O. While the throughput in megabits/second is slightly greater for USB2 than Firewire 400, there must be a practical reason why we don't see more multi-channel audio interfaces being ported over to USB. Surely it would save money because the Firewire chip carries a fair amount of smarts, and I'll bet there's a license fee that's part of the cost of the part as well.

 

I suspect that at least an important things that's slowing them down is that they don't have the mass market that printer or laptop computer manufacturers do. Mackie can sell 10,000 16 channel Firewire-equipped mixers in a couple of years of product life. Epson puts nearly that many printers on every truck that pulls up to their loading dock.

 

 

Manufacturers love mobile devices because the people who buy them have tha cash to buy another when they become obsolite.

 

 

That's not how it works for most of them. They pay for their devices along with their service (without which they're practically useless). It's almost like a lease deal. It works for that kind of product. You could pay $200/month for your Internet service and get a free computer every two years, too, if anyone thought that was a workable business model. But then, when you got your new free computer, you might have to buy a new audio interface (you won't get that for free) because your new computer doesn't have a port to match that of your audio device.

[Goobers]

 

And I doubt there will be a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire converter for the same reason there's no USB-Firewire converter - it takes too many smarts.

 

 

Negative.

 

Thunderbolt-to-Firewire converters are no big deal. Thunderbolt is like PCI, and Firewire to PCI adapters are common and cheap.

 

Here's a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter, the Allegro, from Sonnet:

 

http://www.sonnettech.com/news/pr2011/pr041111_thunderbolt.html

[MikeRivers]

Here's a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter, the Allegro, from Sonnet:

 

Don't pretend this is a no-brainer. It's not available yet, no price announced and there's not a hint of compatibility with all of the audio hardware that doesn't work with certain Firewire ports. Tell me what audio interface you have working on a Thunderbolt port by this Christmas.

 

PCI Firewire cards are cheap because they're obsolete. I'm stocking up. I have three or four here that I think I paid $9 - $10 each for. But ExpressCard or PCIe Firewire cards are in the $35 - $60 range for ones that are known to work with real people's hardware. Yeah, you can probably show me one on eBay for $19.95 (with shipping anywhere in the US for $15) but don't bother.

 

The future is yet to come, my friend. In the mean time I'll stay in the pasture, where things work reliably. You can toss your money and hair away trying to get this year's technology to work some time next year maybe.

[Lee Flier]

But part of the point is that the next generation of computers (both towers and laptops, even many laptops of this generation) have no Firewire port and no way to add one. So it doesn't make sense to buy a new Firewire audio interface today.

 

It made sense to me, because I got a new computer and this setup will serve me for years. I don't anticipate wanting or needing to upgrade my DAW setup for a long time. And just because Apple is making Firewire go away doesn't mean everyone will. I don't think it's going away all that quickly.

 

I mean if you think about it, it almost never "makes sense" to buy any computer stuff, because ANYthing you buy is going to be "obsolete" in a couple of years... but if you don't care about keeping up with the Joneses it doesn't really matter. Find a system that does what you need and stick with it until you have some compelling reason to upgrade.

 

Ah, but many of us are running old hardware that, while we're not hell bent on keeping, we're not in a hurry to replace, and we don't want to feel compelled to replace it simply because there's a good reason (performance for sure) to replace the computer part of the system.

 

Like I say, I don't see any compelling reason to ever have to upgrade from my current setup. This machine yawns at everything I've thrown at it so far, in terms of performance. I may upgrade my laptop at some point (which is not my primary DAW, but it would be handy if I can occasionally use it for remote recording), and I got a FireWire ExpressCard for my current one, which I will keep for such occasions.

 

For most users in the audio field, we don't need to improve performance of the audio interface because we don't need more input or output streams or higher sample rates (and those who do are probably already prepared to replace their audio hardware as well as the computer), we need more memory and faster processing to handle more, and more complex software-based DSP tools (processing plug-ins and virtual instruments).

 

Well, exactly. If things change on the audio side enough that I'd really need all that processing in the future, I can only assume there's some dramatic improvement in the actual sound which would compel me to buy a new audio interface anyway. If that doesn't happen... I'm good with my current system.

 

A tower will always be cheaper than a laptop for the same level of performance (if you can even compare that fairly) because it's cheaper to manufacture and it doesn't include the keyboard and monitor.

 

Yep. It's also not as hard to assemble, and one can buy parts and build their own. Not too many people would do that with a laptop.

 

So your next laptop will have no Firewire port, maybe a USB port for "legacy" support, and a Thunderbolt port.

 

Not if I buy one in the next year. And the FireWire port in my current laptop isn't compatible with most pro audio devices anyway (incompatible chipset) so, as mentioned, I have a FireWire ExpressCard.

 

I mean, I understand your points, but I think they're a little overstated.