Members Lee Flier Posted July 31, 2011 Members Share Posted July 31, 2011 You're a youngster, Miss. Some of us old timers have been around long enough to see this cycle repeat. I'm not THAT young - and I DID work on dumb terminals early on in my programming days. I don't think the current road we're headed down is anything like that. Cloud computing = mainframe + smart terminal. I'm a veteran mainframe programmer, and I have a pretty good idea of the advantages / disadvantages of central vs distributed processing. But we aren't making that kind of either/or choice anymore. Cloud computing isn't simply "mainframe + smart terminal." Both the hardware and the applications we run today are completely different from the mainframe days. The only reason we had dumb terminals back then was because local processing and storage were prohibitively expensive and you needed a huge, cold room to put it all in. As soon as PCs came along and got more and more powerful, programmers took advantage of that and we are now used to doing things on our computers that would never fly if we didn't have local storage available, even with "smart" processing. Wireless and the advent of mobile devices is making this even more crucial. More and more users are demanding local document storage on their smartphones, iPads, etc., and even to the extent that we store stuff (like music, photos and documents) in the cloud, they are mirrored on the local device. In fact that's one of the prime advantages of cloud storage - I have files stored across up to 5 devices (2 computers, iPhone, iPad, external hard drive), plus on the remote server. That makes me feel a lot safer about my data, and a lot of other people feel the same way. I don't have anything super sensitive stored this way, but things that are important to me personally or that I need for routine work, sure. I love being able to access that stuff anywhere. What I'm against is the marketing people pushing it on so many people that DON'T understand the tradeoffs using BS in their sales pitch. The microcomputer was a HUGE step forward in democratizing computing and I hope that step is never reversed. I prefer owning the software I pay for, being responsible for my own data storage / archiving / integriy, and making Big Brother at least get a warrant and kick my door down if they want to look through my hard drive. Absolutely - couldn't agree more, and I think it's important to educate users about this, for sure. But I also think this idea is fairly entrenched in the culture anymore. And let's not forget, the Internet itself was originally designed to be a distributed network, and it can still be that pretty easily as long as a reasonable number of tech savvy people continue to care passionately about these things - as I'm totally confident we will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goobers Posted July 31, 2011 Members Share Posted July 31, 2011 A software glitch can completely erase data in the cloud even if there's physical redundancy. That's what happened at Google this past year when a software bug caused some data to be permanently erased across multiple servers. Google was able to restore it only after fetching archival tape which, among other things, disclosed the fact that they maintain tape backups, and therefore nothing can ever be completely deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted August 1, 2011 Members Share Posted August 1, 2011 We have to consider the shift in ideology, not simply technology differences. What are we giving up? What are we gaining? How did we get here? The debate has similar aspects to buying vs leasing. So local storage vs Mainframe and Terminal Server are fair comparisons when looking at the psychology of it all. There Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 A software glitch can completely erase data in the cloud even if there's physical redundancy. Absolutely. That's why most sane people keep their own local backups of anything critical in addition to cloud backups, and that practice isn't going to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 It's not? Coaster said it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 It's not? Coaster said it was... i'm not impressed. becoming angry (or at the least, taking this far too personally and holding a grudge) at people who have ideas outside your realm of understanding is an unenlightened response. at least be a gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 LOL... man, you guys are overlooking so many things in this thread that it ain't even funny (and I say this as someone who works for a company that sells 100% cloud based software and services). Cloud computing is going to grow a ton, certainly. And it makes sense for many types of applications. So does remote offsite backup and storage - although I keep hard backups of my personal data locally, that wouldn't help me if my house burned down. So it makes good sense to either keep a hard backup somewhere else (which can be inconvenient and therefore most people won't do it as often as they should) or have a remote offsite backup. But you guys are dreaming if you think that local drives are going to go away just because of the growth of cloud based computing. Even existing cloud apps cache apps and data on a local drive - it'd be unusable if they didn't, because network speed and reliability is never going to equal that of local storage. Caching ensures that the app runs as fast as possible and that your work won't be interrupted if your connection briefly drops (as happens all the time, probably without your knowing it, while you're using web based or mobile apps). And sure, you might lease a DAW workstation now and again if you need a specific version of Pro Tools or whatever for a specific project. But is there ever going to be a cloud based version of Pro Tools with no local disk? Can you imagine the latency and dropouts? And that's just one application of many. Sorry, but the evolution of storage devices is always going to be a step ahead of network speed and bandwidth, and therefore there will always be apps that take advantage of the speed and reliability of local storage, especially as it gets cheaper. And as long as people continue to need local storage (even if, for some people, it's only for caching), it will continue to be manufactured cheaply and used by software developers. You can argue that network speed and reliability are going to improve over time, and of course they will... but local storage is always going to be faster and more reliable. Also, with some specific exceptions, most businesses cannot afford the downtime that comes with network outages, so they will not use 100% cloud based services for critical operations. Microsoft has been trying to sell subscription based software for years now, and nobody's buying. They don't have any confidence that Microsoft's servers are always going to be reliable or secure, and they don't like being locked into Draconian contracts where Microsoft can pull the plug anytime if a customer doesn't like the latest terms of the EULA. Perhaps most importantly, companies like Microsoft do NOT have users over a barrel, and they know it now. Programmers are an ornery bunch who don't like their freedoms to be compromised and have the tools to make sure that doesn't happen. We all know that there is a robust open source software community and that's not going away. You can always have a Linux based computer and run open source software and/or buy software from independent developers who continue to program software for traditional computers and mobile devices. And since local storage WILL continue to exist on those devices (even if just for caching), you don't have to worry about it going away. It won't. Casual users may not need or use it much, but it'll still be there. Meanwhile, cloud based computing is increasing many people's freedoms around the world who can't afford expensive computers or software. Someone in a Third World country could bootstrap their own business using Google's free cloud applications for instance, and collaborate with people all over the world. Yes, one can argue that Google could turn into Big Brother and suddenly start making unreasonable demands and/or charging people for their apps, but that would destroy their business model, and even as we speak, "distributed cloud" applications are being developed and used that could replace Google, Facebook and similar services should this ever happen - by harnessing the collective power of lots of individual computers strung together. So let's not be gettin' our panties in a wad. Cloud computing is great, for many appliations, and we should use it where it makes sense, and not use it where it doesn't, as Jeff said. Some people will be dumb and lose their data or software, but that's their problem and they will learn from it. Solid post, Lee. ___________________ On the whose old schooler than who... ... I started on punch cards. Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dingoist Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 Honestly, the cloud has it's place. I've seen the evolution, and talked to people within my industry (telecommunications) about it. The advent where a lot of applications can exist in the cloud is great, but some applications can *not* exist in the cloud yet. Don't be paranoid, though I was surprised a few weeks ago that on my cell phone I wanted to show my boss how big the place was where I was from, and typing into google maps it went directly to my home town scared me a little about the social implications of what google knows about me (I remember years ago selecting a photo for my gmail backdrop, then one day I noticed it was raining in the photo, so looking outside I noticed it was raining outside. A few hours later, my g-mail backdrop showed a sunny day, and the rain passed and it was sunny outside..... google integration is a bit scary sometimes). I do like the cloud, but I see a "personal" cloud growing from this. I once tried "Orb", where I could see all my home PC's music and videos anywhere on the web. Set up a client to their server, and *poof* my media was available to me anywhere. I liked it because it was my information being shared only to me anywhere in the world I traveled. I do worry slightly about "google" being a big brother, for the same reason I don't have an air miles card, I don't want a corporation data farming my habits to sell it to other corporations to build models of a me as a consumer. That is my "big brother" fear of the cloud, because it isn't benign in that aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 i'm not impressed. becoming angry (or at the least, taking this far too personally and holding a grudge) at people who have ideas outside your realm of understanding is an unenlightened response.at least be a gentleman. No, I was showing that at least one person sees past the subterfuge, beyond the realm of most sheeple's understanding. One person sees past the illusion and realizes that we have no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 Seriously, Coaster, you slay me. I make one little comment that is actually in line with what you've been saying, and you tell me to act like a gentleman. Yet it's okay for you to not bother to explain your position at first but continually call me ignorant, a victim to the subterfuge and the illusion, etc., all this merely because I think hard drives are going to be made for quite some time. I love it! Like I said before, you're a lot of fun to have around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 but continually call me ignorant, a victim to the subterfuge and the illusion, etc. the preceding bold statement is not a reality. it has not, did not, and will not happen. i have explained my position. it is not my responsibility to explain it to your satisfaction; i am content with you believing whatever you want. i have not been angry, personal, or anything at all negative to you. you seem to infer things that have not happened, and i again ask to to examine why you feel this way for it is not my doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 careful, the zombie sheeple will accuse you of wearing tinfoil hats - just like they are trained to. But like I said, continually calling me ignorant, a victim to the illusion (often before you've explained where you're coming from), that kind of thing, all that I find amusing, so don't stress any. It's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 But like I said, continually calling me ignorant, a victim to the illusion (often before you've explained where you're coming from), that kind of thing, all that I find amusing, so don't stress any. It's all good. again, none of what you quoted nor anything in this thread calls you anything. i have not been personal at all, nor has anything been directed at you. you may infer, yet i did not imply. i have a right to my own opinion, and i respect yours however you do not seem to respect mine. this is fine and i have no problem with it, but again i ask you to examine why you take this so personal when nothing has been directed specifically at you. am i really this much of a threat to your system of beliefs? you need to ask yourself why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 again, none of what you quoted nor anything in this thread calls you anything. i have not been personal at all, nor has anything been directed at you. you may infer, yet i did not imply. Of course you implied. You didn't directly call him anything, but you made general statements about anyone who doesn't agree with you, and Ken happens to be in that group, as do I. Who else would you be referring to? You were definitely personal, just in a very passive-aggressive kind of way. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not respecting different opinions, and that's the problem. In your mind, you're the one who's "awake" and anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "zombie sheeple." How is that respectful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 its no less respectful than implying i wear tinfoil hats because i have a different ideology than someone else. i think you are all basically good people and choose to see good in things. i dont see these good things anymore except on an individual basis and on a local level, and basically see the current state of the world as a rather sinister selfish place. i disagree with the general consensus here that good will prevail in the end. i dont think it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 i have not been personal at all, nor has anything been directed at you. you may infer, yet i did not imply. You are endlessly amusing!! You followed many of those comments up after a post of mine, often even quoting me and then saying that. You not only implied, you outright called me that at times. When you consider the amount of personal insults you've dished out, I've actually been quite polite...largely because I find you a lot of fun. Also, as Lee says, you can state your opinion, but to call me and other people "ignorant" or say that "you're the only one who's awake" or that we fall for the "subterfuge" or to call me one of the "zombie sheeple" goes far beyond that. If that's not a personal attack, what is? Watch. Here's two different ways you can approach giving your opinion: EXAMPLE ONE: "I feel that cloud storage will be the only method used in the near future, and that local storage will no longer exist. I feel that manufacturers don't give us much choice in the matter. Here's some examples to illustrate why I feel this way." EXAMPLE TWO: "i dont think the obvious has sunk in; once cloud computing becomes the dominant factor, offline storage will cease to exist whether you like it or not. I'm not paranoid; i am awake to the subterfuge. i'm surprised so many folks are still under the illusion that you can do anything you want. If you think you have a choice, why then i envy the world you live in because most of our choices are but a fleeting illusion. And if you disagree with me, well, you're just another victim, another zombie sheeple, and you're trained to call me tin foil hat crazy." Which one is a personal attack? Which one calls the person ignorant? Which one merely states an opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 i dont see these good things anymore except on an individual basis and on a local level, and basically see the current state of the world as a rather sinister selfish place. And that is reflected in your posts. And, may I say, that's your right to feel that way. What's difficult for some folks is how that philosophy is applied to just about any topic. You and I are indeed opposites in regard to our level of optimism about the world, and I can't help but feel sympathetic for you... how terrible it must be, expecting the worst around every corner. I feel we all have a very short time here, and I intend on it being a good {censored}ing time. You can't possibly be having fun, which is my only concern in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 Coaster, this has nothing to do with good vs. evil. I don't have any doubt that there are people out there who'd love to force everyone to use cloud services and pay monthly fees for it. Microsoft tried for years. Google succeeds to the extent they do only because they don't charge end users for their stuff, and companies who are really concerned about security and privacy don't use Google's stuff anyway. Rather, it has to do with supply and demand. There will continue to be demand for local storage, for all the reasons we've already covered, and therefore local storage will not just go away. In fact it's getting even smaller, cheaper, faster and with no moving parts. Programmers who are determined to provide open source software aren't going to go away either. That genie is out of the bottle, and barring a complete collapse of civilization, it's not going back. I don't believe the world is a good place OR a sinister place - it's both. There are always bad people who want to control our lives and make them hell, and there are always good people working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. There are other areas where I'm concerned the bad guys will win, but this is just not one of them. There are too many "good guys" (and even "bad guys") who need local storage on their computers and smartphones. When your own perspective of the world as an evil place, across the board, colors things to the point where you can't see the other side, that's where the tinfoil hat accusations come in - because that perspective is incorrect, and that's easily proven. Besides, like Jeff says, it's certainly not a healthy attitude for anyone to carry around, and tends to be self-reinforcing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 its no less respectful than implying i wear tinfoil hats because i have a different ideology than someone else. Which was done AFTER your multiple character assassinations. And if I were like you, I would say, "Oh, no, i have not been personal at all, nor has anything been directed at you. you may infer, yet i did not imply." But unlike you, I'll cop to it. Yup, I posted this after you repeatedly insulted me with you and only you in mind. So how does it feel to be personally insulted? Not very good, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 And that is reflected in your posts. And, may I say, that's your right to feel that way. What's difficult for some folks is how that philosophy is applied to just about any topic. You and I are indeed opposites in regard to our level of optimism about the world, and I can't help but feel sympathetic for you... how terrible it must be, expecting the worst around every corner. I feel we all have a very short time here, and I intend on it being a good {censored}ing time. You can't possibly be having fun, which is my only concern in that regard. Agreed. And I can't help but think that while completely screwed things happen every day, there are also beautiful things that happen every day. I have experienced this quite a bit, having traveled to 21 different countries. We can choose to think the world is completely sinister, that it's all pink puffy clouds and unicorns, or that it completely runs the gamut. I volunteer my time with a number of non-profits to try and help out a little bit with the sinister aspect, and enjoy the good aspects. As Jeff said, it's your right to feel that way. I'm not even saying it's wrong. There are a lot of sinister, screwed aspects to this world. But to use that to insult other people and say that they are blind are personal attacks, and that's when you cross the line, in my opinion. That's when you get the tin foil hat thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 A software glitch can completely erase data in the cloud even if there's physical redundancy. That's what happened at Google this past year when a software bug caused some data to be permanently erased across multiple servers. Google was able to restore it only after fetching archival tape which, among other things, disclosed the fact that they maintain tape backups, and therefore nothing can ever be completely deleted. I find it highly amusing they're using tape backups. Maybe Google will save analog tape for us. Wouldn't that be ironic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 I don't believe the world is a good place OR a sinister place - it's both. There are always bad people who want to control our lives and make them hell, and there are always good people working hard to make sure that doesn't happen. There are other areas where I'm concerned the bad guys will win, but this is just not one of them. There are too many "good guys" (and even "bad guys") who need local storage on their computers and smartphones. When your own perspective of the world as an evil place, across the board, colors things to the point where you can't see the other side, that's where the tinfoil hat accusations come in - because that perspective is incorrect, and that's easily proven. Besides, like Jeff says, it's certainly not a healthy attitude for anyone to carry around, and tends to be self-reinforcing. Very well said. Completely agree with you and Jeff's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 I find it highly amusing they're using tape backups. Maybe Google will save analog tape for us. Wouldn't that be ironic? I love it!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 It's fascinating that Ken is the other combatant in this discussion. Ken has been one of the most socially-minded people I've ever met, and applies his efforts on a worldwide basis. He actually goes out and does things to help people who need help. He is extremely politically aware; he helps run a non-profit organization to aid the people of Tibet. I mean, his day job is teaching disabled children. I tend to look with admiration at people who take action. Talking about stuff rarely helps much. I'm not much of an action guy either, so it's all the more worthy of respect that Ken does what he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted August 2, 2011 Members Share Posted August 2, 2011 Per the discussion, I would actually like to duplicate all my data on a storage cloud. Just because it's another backup. Don't ask me how I'm going to get a few terabytes uploaded though. Maybe I can mail some hard drives to Weasel and he can use that light-speed fiber he's got to upload my data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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