Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Next time, link to what you`re referring to... makes it easier to discuss. :poke:Just saying... Sorry, I thought since you went through the U.S. grade school system you might have remembered why the Boston Tea Party occurred. And sorry, I thought you knew that the Tunisian protest was largely about economic conditions. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don`t remember what I studied last semester... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don't remember what I had for dinner last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 But you remembered the Boston Tea Party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hard Truth Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 That was the problem with the wall street crowd. They didnt know the cause of the problem, and they had no solutions to the problems. They came off as being a bunch ignorant whiners. .... And most importantly, you have to use methods, technology, communication, laws etc of the present time to make those changes and not rely on historical methods that may have worked then but would be a complete fail now. The Wallsteet protest is a perfect example. They were using 60's methods in 2011. They didnt have the sympathy of all peoples as it being a righteous cause and it did nothing but piss allot of inocent people off and cost allot of tax money in the process. 1. Are you sure the problem is with the protests and not with the mainstream media's coverage of the protests? IMO the protests were highly successful in changing the national dialogue from the debt to unemployment, foreclosures and the other consequences of concentration of wealth, a previously taboo topic in the mainstream media. 2. All protests start small, get ignored and oppressed as much as the rulers can, and if the protesters are lucky and smart, spread to the masses. 3.The OWS movement started online and organized and spread their message through a wide variety of technical methods such as Youtube videos, cell phones, blogs, Facebook etc. They managed to generate a lot more publicity, for a lot longer, than the HUGE anti-war protests in the 2001-2006 period. 4. OWS was intentionally a very inclusive movement, which may have created the impression that they did not have any plans for addressing the issues. There were many informed people with very concrete proposals involved, but the inclusive nature of the movement did not allow them to become an "official" agenda. History will provide perspective as to whether that was wise or not, but the role of the mainstream media in obscuring its message should never be left out of that judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 My point was, if you protest, have some workable plan that can be used as your alternative. Protesting without a workable plan to back up your complaints is a hollow effort in futility. That was the problem with the wall street crowd. They didnt know the cause of the problem, and they had no solutions to the problems. They came off as being a bunch ignorant whiners. First of all, if you think the OWS movement is in the past, you're mistaken. Second, it was portrayed very badly in the mainstream media (deliberately, no doubt) so that only the "ignorant whiners" got any airtime. In fact the movement encompasses a whole lot of diverse groups of people, many of whom do indeed have agendas and solutions. Not that it is necessarily protesters' job to have solutions, anyway, but just saying. Really the movement is just getting started, and it is not at all being carried out in the same way as 60s protests. You are also mistaken if you think all it does is piss people off. I'm not sure where you're getting your news but you're not very well informed about the movement, and you will certainly hear more from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members realtrance Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 I had a lot to say, but fortunately for all of you the forum timed-out my login before I hit "post." In a nutshell, though: lots of good discussion on this thread. We're at the precipice of a real, global revolution. The future is not going to look like anything any of us could have anticipated. And, ironically, it's the tiny group of wealthy on the planet who are going to suffer the most, and that soon. Let them enjoy their toys for the brief time they can keep up their illusions, it really doesn't matter for the rest of us in the long run. And, if this thread seriously depresses you, play a little game I like to play in my head at night before I go to sleep: think of all the things, today, you are thankful for. Not as a way to put your head in the sand, but to give you the strength tomorrow, to fight on. Because you are going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 1. Are you sure the problem is with the protests and not with the mainstream media's coverage of the protests? IMO the protests were highly successful in changing the national dialogue from the debt to unemployment, foreclosures and the other consequences of concentration of wealth, a previously taboo topic in the mainstream media. Yep. 2. All protests start small, get ignored and oppressed as much as the rulers can, and if the protesters are lucky and smart, spread to the masses. Yep. 3.The OWS movement started online and organized and spread their message through a wide variety of technical methods such as Youtube videos, cell phones, blogs, Facebook etc. They managed to generate a lot more publicity, for a lot longer, than the HUGE anti-war protests in the 2001-2006 period. Yep again. 4. OWS was intentionally a very inclusive movement, which may have created the impression that they did not have any plans for addressing the issues. There were many informed people with very concrete proposals involved, but the inclusive nature of the movement did not allow them to become an "official" agenda. History will provide perspective as to whether that was wise or not, but the role of the mainstream media in obscuring its message should never be left out of that judgement. You're spot on today sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 But you remembered the Boston Tea Party! Yes. I can't remember anything past about eighteen years old, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Corporate profits are only one data point among billions. And from what I can tell, businesses posting record profits now are the exception rather than the rule anyway. I agree, but I was making a point within a limited context, namely that we still have a healthy GDP and are therefore still able to pay for things like infrastructure and social safety nets, regardless what some people would have you believe. And, 3 years into an economic decline without any idea of where renewed growth will come from... how are we getting ahead of ourselves, as opposed to 20 or 40 years behind where we should be? I was talking about this in 2003... it's so frustrating to see it happening 8 years later and have people still not aware of what's going on, still arguing back and forth at a level below where the problem is. And a problem can't even be solved at the level at which it occurs... you have to get a level above it for a solution, and we don't even recognize the problem yet. I disagree that we don't recognize the problem. I'll have to get back to this when I have some more time, which right now I don't... but like I said, I don't disagree with you that the structure of the economy will change. Many people realize that and have been discussing it for at least 30 or 40 years. My comments are, like I said, in the extremely limited context of what to do right now about the things politicians are debating right now - namely how to deal with unemployment, the national debt, taxes, infrastructure, health care, etc. These are urgent problems given the current crisis, and currently, we do have the money to deal with them. That's all I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 1. Are you sure the problem is with the protests and not with the mainstream media's coverage of the protests? IMO the protests were highly successful in changing the national dialogue from the debt to unemployment, foreclosures and the other consequences of concentration of wealth, a previously taboo topic in the mainstream media. That's my opinion as well. Some of the mainstream media has really dumbed down the message, making some feel that there wasn't a message (!). In regard to OWS in general, I agree with Lee's posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 And, if this thread seriously depresses you, play a little game I like to play in my head at night before I go to sleep: think of all the things, today, you are thankful for. Not as a way to put your head in the sand, but to give you the strength tomorrow, to fight on. Because you are going to win. Perhaps it's because things are going well at my work and in my personal life, I feel quite grateful, although this doesn't change my opinion that things need to change. After all, this isn't about me; it's about our country, our world. It's about everyone. For now, I think it's a matter of trying to stay aware of what's going on and stay informed and committed to improving the state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members realtrance Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 I do think things are getting better for the world, just not for the US and Europe. Like Best Buy, our time is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hard Truth Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yep. Yep. Yep again. You're spot on today sir! Thanks. Nice to have you back on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BushmasterM4 Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Fact, the top 5% wage earners in the USA pay over half of all individual income tax !!! So to say the middle class pay the most is very 1970's-1990's. With all the tax credits and higher income qualified for EIC (Earned Income Credit), you see more and more middle class with zero tax liability. And to say teachers dont earn enough is very 1990's to 2000. Teachers income fall into the upper middle class income. Especially with the majority of teachers (baby boomers) drawing state teachers pensions after 20 years and still working. Double Dipping !!! Why not, I would. In my home state average teaching incomes range from 38K (1st year) to well over 100K for the double dippers. Hell our High School principal earn over 80k and he doesnt have his 10 year in !!! Sure there are problems in the good ole USA, but dont bitch about it. Do something. And if you dont like it, well, move your ass to IRAQ or IRAN or North Korea and live !!! I bet you attitude will change pretty damn quick !!! And as far as taxes go !! Those taxes keep your ass safe and allow you to bitch about it !!!! Now go order a pizza and drink a beer !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Fact, the top 5% wage earners in the USA pay over half of all individual income tax !!! So to say the middle class pay the most is very 1970's-1990's. With all the tax credits and higher income qualified for EIC (Earned Income Credit), you see more and more middle class with zero tax liability. I don't recall anyone saying that the middle class pay the most. Is anyone saying that? In any case, yes, the wealthy pay a bigger share of income tax; however the middle class and especially the poor pay a lot bigger share of their income in other types of tax (payroll tax, sales tax, excise tax etc.) Those other taxes are regressive so the progressive income tax attempts to compensate for that. But, again, I haven't seen anyone here complaining that they pay too much in taxes, so this is irrelevant. Sure there are problems in the good ole USA, but dont bitch about it. Do something. We are discussing what we can do. Lots of people would like to do something but don't know exactly what they can do. And bitching about it is OK too. And if you dont like it, well, move your ass to IRAQ or IRAN or North Korea and live !!! Sigh... I think most of us realize that we have it much better than any of those places. But (and this is the point) we want to keep it that way. And some of us don't like the direction things are headed. Please try to actually follow the discussion and respond to what's being said as opposed to a bunch of things nobody said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Fact, the top 5% wage earners in the USA pay over half of all individual income tax !!! So to say the middle class pay the most is very 1970's-1990's. With all the tax credits and higher income qualified for EIC (Earned Income Credit), you see more and more middle class with zero tax liability. And to say teachers dont earn enough is very 1990's to 2000. Teachers income fall into the upper middle class income. Especially with the majority of teachers (baby boomers) drawing state teachers pensions after 20 years and still working. Double Dipping !!! Why not, I would. In my home state average teaching incomes range from 38K (1st year) to well over 100K for the double dippers. Hell our High School principal earn over 80k and he doesnt have his 10 year in !!! Sure there are problems in the good ole USA, but dont bitch about it. Do something. And if you dont like it, well, move your ass to IRAQ or IRAN or North Korea and live !!! I bet you attitude will change pretty damn quick !!! And as far as taxes go !! Those taxes keep your ass safe and allow you to bitch about it !!!! Now go order a pizza and drink a beer !!!! Spoken like a true Republican. No one mentioned anything about taxes, at least from what I read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Quite simply, the government can change the financial system, and the people can change government (and I disagree with the "out of control spending" thing but I digress). I was agreeing with most of what you wrote until the last part. Yes, the government can change the financial system but my point has been since the first post in this thread is that politicians won`t. The President has done nothing but bow down to the big guys in the finance. The Bailout was the Bush Administrations idea but it actually happened on Obamas watch. Not trying to get political here (and yes, I did vote for Obama) but I have very little faith in our public servants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 I think one problem is that everyone's right. Protesting CAN be effective, but not always. Government CAN shut down protests and stomp a movement, but not always. Those who have hopes about the Arab Spring should take a look at what's happening in Hungary, which is getting ZERO press over here as far as I can tell, but is a chilly foreshadowing of what's happening in the US, and will continue to happen if we go down the same path. The Europeans are pretty freaked out about all this. I was alive when the Hungarians rose up against the Russians. The Hungarians lost, but eventually, they won. Now in a very short period of time, the considerable progress Hungary made during the last two decades toward being a totally free, open, and democratic society is being dismantled at blazing speed. Will the Hungarians be able to put on the brakes through protests and sympathy from the European Union? Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Well I'm old enough to have lived through all the protests of the 60's. There was a hundred timesmore more message masking caused by the media then than there has been now with the wallstreet crowd. The message in the 60's had something solid and valid in back of it. There were were all kinds of cashing in going on later withthe hippie flower power then and it had just as many jackasses screwing up the message and putting the whole movement in a really bad light. many of the leaders were kooks, many were just out to make a buck. many were just lost souls just clinging to whatever was popular. Non of that has changed and its all happening with this movement. The real difference then in comparison to nowis thet movement focused on the cause which was bad politicians and bad government policies. The protesters didnt attack their families companies, or tear down the business structure as being at fault. They knew if ther were bad laws, thay attacked those who made those laws, not those who were living within those laws. I understand the wallstreet message. I've listened to all positions on the subject and judge their position as being misguided and lacking moral strength. Its got nothing to offer anything for me or anyone I know and I know a buttload of people. Everyone thinks its a joke. you can delude yourself into thinking its reallygoing to change things, but excuse my while I watch the individuals run like hamsters in a cage. Untill the movement gets thir adjenda out of backing politiciansnoones going to trust them. Noone trusts politicians and as long as they are linked at the hips with the left or right, they wont have any appeal to normalworking people. a political agenda. Like it or not thats how I see it. The 60's thing was not a political movement unto itself. it had a major impact on politicsbut the ones in the movement were from all parties, faiths, economic classes and races. That cant happen with a highly leftist non inclusive protest group. Sorry, thats the way I view it. If there was any noble reasoning behind the movement I could at least tolerate it. Since they suck at conveying their message theres no wayit gets through the media who is for the most part on their side. Even with that help its a lame movement and when you add all the crap that went on because of it by individuals, it shows a major lack of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members realtrance Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Craig yes, right-wing neo-fascist totalitarianism is already on the march in Europe, and here too, for that matter; whatever else anyone would like to pretend, freedom has been turned into freedom for corporations and the rich minority to take whatever they want, and destroy the rest of our lives with no repercussions. When you hear anyone in the GOP talking about "freedom," that's all they're referring to: freedom for the elite to do whatever they want. Not for the rest of us. Until...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Fact, the top 5% wage earners in the USA pay over half of all individual income tax Not to derail this into a thing about taxes, but it's instructive to run some figures. The above stat isn't really surprising, given that 1% own 42% of the wealth (tangible financial wealth, not net worth). That's almost in flat tax territory - if everyone paid the same percentage of tax, then that 1% would pay 42% of the taxes. We're not even talking about a progressive income tax, which would tend to tilt toward not taxing the very bottom. In the US as of 2007, 80% of the population owned 7% of the wealth. So, again even if there was a flat tax, that 80% should only be paying 7% of the taxes. Given a semi-progressive tax system, then the lowest of the 80% would pay proportionately lower taxes, and the upper 20% would pay somewhat more to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 No one trusts politicians and as long as they are linked at the hips with the left or right, they wont have any appeal to normal working people. Did you mean "as long as they are linked at the hips with the lef$$$t or rig$$$ht"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Craig yes, right-wing neo-fascist totalitarianism is already on the march in Europe, and here too, for that matter; whatever else anyone would like to pretend, freedom has been turned into freedom for corporations and the rich minority to take whatever they want, and destroy the rest of our lives with no repercussions. When you hear anyone in the GOP talking about "freedom," that's all they're referring to: freedom for the elite to do whatever they want. Not for the rest of us. Until...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted January 5, 2012 Members Share Posted January 5, 2012 Did you mean "as long as they are linked at the hips with the lef$$$t or rig$$$ht"? Watch your language buddy or else I`ll have to report you to the Mod. Oh... snap... forget about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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