Members elsongs Posted January 1, 2012 Members Share Posted January 1, 2012 It's like...too much auto-tune...and no one even bothers to use a hi-hat anymore. WTF?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted January 1, 2012 Members Share Posted January 1, 2012 It's not 1985 anymore.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bookumdano2 Posted January 1, 2012 Members Share Posted January 1, 2012 Speaking of 1985, anyone wanna buy a Linndrum? It has a hihat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted January 1, 2012 Members Share Posted January 1, 2012 Today's Black Youth get a creepy feeling about anything that reminds them too much of Slavery, Jim Crow, Separate-but-Equal, etc. Unfortunately they tend to associate the Blues and old-school R&B with a kind of shameful, subservient "Uncle Tom-ism" that may have been right for their parents, but not for them. Rap/Hiphop/Gangsta has been a desperate attempt on the part of younger African-Americans to distance themselves from the argot and plights-- and songs-- of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben. Many younger Black musicians listen to 1960's Motown, say, and they appraise it for exactly what it was: an attempt to market black music to suburban white audiences... making themselves "acceptable" to them. So few Black kids today are in a big hurry to sound like Big Maybelle or the Ink Spots or Motown or the Stylistics or James Brown. Or even Marvin Gaye or Roberta Flack or Nina Simone. One could say they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but only a white person from a perceived "dominant" caste in a non-assimilationist hierarchy would opine such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elsongs Posted January 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 1, 2012 Today's Black Youth get a creepy feeling about anything that reminds them too much of Slavery, Jim Crow, Separate-but-Equal, etc. Funny, that doesn't seem to stop them from using the word "nigga" in a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 [video=youtube;pwnefUaKCbc] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Folder Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Today's Black Youth get a creepy feeling about anything that reminds them too much of Slavery, Jim Crow, Separate-but-Equal, etc. I have heard that argument before but I don't buy it. At my old rehearsal studio there were a lot of "R&B" producers with their computer setups and expensive keyboard workstations but not a single one of them could play a musical instrument. They might have known a couple of chords and might be able to program a simple riff or bass line but they had no ability whatsoever to interact with other live musicians. Some of them used to like to stand outside my door and listen to the live music coming out. One guy told me that he really liked to hear people playing the guitar. He said he didn't get to hear anybody play guitar when he was growing up because he grew up in a black neighborhood. Another guy knocked on my door one time and asked me what song was playing over the monitors because he wanted to rap over it. I told him it was called "Fool to Cry" by the Rolling Stones. He asked me if I had a pen because he wanted to write down the name of the band ! These guys were in their late 20's or early 30's. I started thinking about all the great R&B music when I was a kid. Bands like The Chi-lites, The Dramatics, Gladys Knight and the Pips, Sly and the Family Stone, The O'Jays, The Brother Johnson, James Brown, The Commodores, The Delfonics, Earth Wind and Fire, Al Green, The Isley Brothers, Rufus, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, The Ohio Players, Billy Preston, War, Bill Withers, Stevie Wonder, The Stylistics, The Main Ingredient, Jean Knight, The Undisputed Truth, The Spinners, Parliament-Funkadelic to name a few. The songs by these artists were some of the first songs that I remember liking on the radio. I didn't know it at the time but I think I was responding the feel and swing as well as the strong melodies but mostly the "great musicianship". I was recently "stuck" somewhere where I was forced to listen to a couple of hours worth of so called modern R&B. I couldn't wait to get out there. The music that I heard was so far removed from the R&B of the 60's and 70's that I don't even understand why they classify it as R&B. Mechanical, soulless, repetitive, simple, rigid and some of it just plain un-musical. But the thing that really stood out for me was that I don't think I heard a single discernable melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mcmike100 Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Today's Black Youth get a creepy feeling about anything that reminds them too much of Slavery, Jim Crow, Separate-but-Equal, etc.Unfortunately they tend to associate the Blues and old-school R&B with a kind of shameful, subservient "Uncle Tom-ism" that may have been right for their parents, but not for them. Rap/Hiphop/Gangsta has been a desperate attempt on the part of younger African-Americans to distance themselves from the argot and plights-- and songs-- of . Many younger Black musicians listen to 1960's Motown, say, and they appraise it for exactly what it was: an attempt to market black music to suburban white audiences... making themselves "acceptable" to them.So few Black kids today are in a big hurry to sound like Big Maybelle or the Ink Spots or Motown or the Stylistics or James Brown. Or even Marvin Gaye or Roberta Flack or Nina Simone.One could say they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but only a white person from a perceived "dominant" caste in a non-assimilationist hierarchy would opine such thing. I'm curious. What did Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben listen to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 At my old rehearsal studio there were a lot of "R&B" producers with their computer setups and expensive keyboard workstations but not a single one of them could play a musical instrument. They might have known a couple of chords and might be able to program a simple riff or bass line but they had no ability whatsoever to interact with other live musicians. Some of them used to like to stand outside my door and listen... Great post^ A couples years back, I was watching a BET show, I forget the name... it was BET's version of unplugged. Ne-Yo was on. Ne-Yo can sing. He can entertain and dance and all that with the best post Micheal acumen. But here... ...he was performing Because of You. A that time I hadn't heard his recording yet. I was ecstatic! A well written and sung R & B tune. Very well sung. And emoting like a mofo. The players, the drummer... the bass, piano... it was R AND FREAKIN' BEE! Tight and snappy and lots of 'tude and swagger. Then I heard the release. It was fine. But nothing I'd stop for. And it was so GOOD in that "other" more visceral version. Gone was the kick/snare/hat to bass guitar interplay. Gone were the awesome live feel backups. Gone were the "from valley to mountain top" dynamic swells. In their place were canned hats and 808 claps and sub bass and very competent modern R & B production. Same thing happened with Jill Scott. Man, I dig her! She's got a lot of Chaka and Mavis and even Gladys. Live and stripped down it's an epiphany. The recordings, on the other hand... While I can dig, and at times totally do dig, modern R & B arrangements, for the most part, they drain rather then pump up the heart of the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 There's still plenty of "old school" sounding stuff out there. But the truth is that, either by design or just through the natural process of musical evolution, every generation has their own sound and their own ways of achieving it. Hi-hats (to name just one thing of zillions) are a 20th century artifact. Nobody used 'em in prior to that and it's not that surprising that people would move on to something else after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi-Hat became illegal on January 1th 1997 after Puff Daddy's butler and CEO of the label Death Row Records Orlando Anderson (a cousin of Craig) killed 2Pac with a hi-hat fusillade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 There's still plenty of "old school" sounding stuff out there. But the truth is that, either by design or just through the natural process of musical evolution, every generation has their own sound and their own ways of achieving it. Hi-hats (to name just one thing of zillions) are a 20th century artifact. Nobody used 'em in prior to that and it's not that surprising that people would move on to something else after that. Of course. I'm with you. I get that. I also get Elson's point that something is lost too. I love the cool creations a pop programmer can pull out his his bag of tricks. Greg Wells, Will I Am, the Outkast crew. It's great. I for one, don't want to lose that. And somehow, I don't think noting certain things lost due to the newer methods is going to bury modern practices. But as a discussion among writers, like we are here, it's healthy. I do agree that there is something lost per Elson's point above. And bringing it up reminds me to do something about it. I make decisions every day about music creation. These points and notes and observations help me clarify my aesthetic. And that ultimately gets reflected in my music. David, if you don't know already, Elson has some serious skills in the R & B department. He's not talkin' out his ass here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 He's not talkin' out his ass here. of course not, but he has to wait about another 5 years until they play his R&B in every retirement home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 of course not, but he has to wait about another 5 years until they play his R&B in every retirement home Making a lot of ASSumptions are we? This is knee jerk and what you think Elson is saying is something you've got already in your head. So... try to contribute here. I thought it was a great topic for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Of course. I'm with you. I get that. I also get Elson's point that something is lost too. I love the cool creations a pop programmer can pull out his his bag of tricks. Greg Wells, Will I Am, the Outkast crew. It's great. I for one, don't want to lose that. And somehow, I don't think noting certain things lost due to the newer methods is going to bury modern practices. But as a discussion among writers, like we are here, is healthy. I do agree that there is something lost per Elson's point above. And bringing it up reminds me to do something about it. I make decisions every day about music creation. These points and notes and observations help me clarify my aesthetic. And that ultimately gets reflected in my music. David, if you don't know already, Elson has some serious skills in the R & B department. He's not talkin' out his ass here. Oh I agree with all that. I'm just offering up another POV for consideration. I think something is lost too. I have to guess that, to the modern guys, it's not something they mind losing? Or perhaps even WANT to lose? Most likely, the stuff we regret losing is the stuff they feel makes the recordings sound dated. I'm with you: I'm glad it's all out there. Old and new. But I can't help but wonder if the art of recording itself doesn't contribute to this loss. And by that I mean that many people believe that the newer "old school" sounding stuff can never be as good as the old stuff itself. And all that old stuff still exists. Why do we need a new singer that reminds us of Chaka Khan when everything Chaka Khan ever sang is just as easily available? Just all food for thought. I'm not trying to say any particular viewpoint here is right or wrong. I think it's ALL part of the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Making a lot of ASSumptions are we? This is knee jerk and what you think Elson is saying is something you've got already in your head. So... try to contribute here. I thought it was a great topic for discussion. well, I don't think for example Alicia Keys is a bad producer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 This... to me, is an example of modern R & B production that adds to the tune. It's not old school, by any means, but feels great in a very old school way. Huh! [video=youtube;Qw3Z8Oa7E3Y] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 This is the Ne-Yo track. I can't find the acoustic version. But there was a live hi-hat in that version I can't find. And this studio arrangement, though it is very cool, personally, the lack of the swinging hat the live one had... for me, this song never lifts off like could, and did in that rendition. [video=youtube;atz_aZA3rf0] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 most of todays R&B is what we call "obvious" only the most arbitrative musical elements in the mix, no schnick schnack, adding a rhythm guitar and the clients alread starts talking "is that necessary, does that not confuse the end consumer...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mister natural Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 have you heard Todd's "Whatever Happened to the Soul Brother?" hilarious . . . [video=youtube;SvO3gMw5XqI] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Folder Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have to guess that, to the modern guys, it's not something they mind losing? Or perhaps even WANT to lose? Most likely, the stuff we regret losing is the stuff they feel makes the recordings sound dated. I disagree. I think they know something is lost but they don't have clue how to get it back. Whenever I talk to hip-hop and R&B guys they like to use the term "old school" to describe the sound they are after. But they are never able to get it because they don't know how to. You can't program "real" soul. They don't understand this basic fundamental. There was a thread on this forum last summer about this supposedly being the biggest generation gap in 50 years. I asked if todays music could be the main cause of it. (I still think it is). The general consensus seemed to be that there was not so much a generation gap as there is a "CULTURE GAP". Like the rapper who had never heard of the Rolling Stones. I sense a disconnect in hip-hop fans with the larger history of American music. Most rock and rollers have a basic understanding of what came before and how previous forms of music melded together to create new forms. There is a scene in the movie "School of Rock" where Jack Black has drawn a huge chart on the black board showing how the different forms of American music are related. I think most Rock and Rollers regardless of age generally understand how Jazz, Blues, R&B, Soul, Country, Fusion, Folk et cetera are all linked. For the hip-hop people it all starts and progresses within the genre of hip-hop which is a form of music that is mostly made by machines. We've had classic rock radio for 35 years now. The forefathers of today's rock music have never left the airways. If you play heavy metal or punk or whatever, it's highly likely that you've heard of the Rolling Stones. Contrast that with R&B music. I've been scanning the dials for years hoping to come across a good "old School" classic R&B station but as far as I know they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 But they are never able to get it because they don't know how to. I don't think there is anything missing in this track, nothing Jay didn't get [video=youtube;MUN9giYJhew] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Folder Posted January 3, 2012 Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 The very second I hear that obnoxius electronic clappy sound I immediately change the channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 3, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2012 The very second I hear that obnoxius electronic clappy sound I immediately change the channel. Me too! Except if you get a little past that bit... it turns into some serious SOUL action, done in a modern way that works. At least for me. The edge here reminds me a bit of Edwin Star's War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nijyo Posted January 3, 2012 Members Share Posted January 3, 2012 I like what I've heard from Cee Lo. That's all I can contribute to this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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