So, What Is the Characteristic in Tubes that People Want to Emulate, Anyway?

[Anderton]

The obvious answer is "I like the sound of tubes." Okay. But, is that due to some inherent quality tubes have that enhances the sound (e.g., distortion, the Miller effect), some inherent undesirable quality in solid state devices (e.g., pretty much everyone agrees that Class A amp stages sound better than Class AB), or familiarity - we've heard tubes used in guitar amps and mic preamps since the dawn of recorded rock and roll, and that's just what we feel is the "right" sound?

 

Regarding the latter, if tubes had never existed and all preamps and amps were solid state, then at least year's AES the tube was introduced, would people say "Wow! This new tube thing sounds really really fabulous!!" or would they say "I dunno...sounds kinda funny."

[CTStump]

I wish they could emulate the smell of old dust burning on a hot tube, I really miss that.I always prefer a tube amp over solid state because of the response, I guess it's the same with emulations.

[ggm1960]

I always thought tube amps were crap. Outdated technology that is nearly impossible to get a good clean sound from. It seems like pure insanity to me that people pay more money to haul around fragile, touchy junk with huge, heavy PS and coupling transformers.

[UstadKhanAli]

I always thought tube amps were crap. Outdated technology that is nearly impossible to get a good clean sound from. It seems like pure insanity to me that people pay more money to haul around fragile, touchy junk with huge, heavy PS and coupling transformers.

 

I have gigged with a Carr Rambler for over ten years. All tube guitar amp. It sounds fantastic and is not fragile or touchy. And it's definitely not junk. It's quite frankly one of the most fantastic sounding tube amps I've ever heard.

 

But the question is more of a general question. Some tube equipment, such as some tube guitar amps, or mic preamps or tube microphones, sound fantastic, looks cool, is easy to market, and is something people want. The "easy to market" thing is important here. It's easier for people to market this than describing why a transformer is capable of imparting such a great sound.

 

This is going to be a long, contentious thread, isn't it?

[CTStump]

I think in my opinion both can come in handy with the tech available today. I think with response I might mean that the tube valves breathe and break up more which is the sound I'm after.

[Anderton]

I use sims live and for most recording, but have a couple tube amps and preamps for when I want "that" sound. I've found over the years I use the "real" tubes less and less as the sims get better and more flexible.

 

However, I also have some Aphex tube mic preamps that are just wonderful. They have a sparkle and sweetness I not only can't get with solid state gear, I can't get it with other TUBE gear. I remember talking with Marvin Caesar about his "secret sauce" used in the preamps, and it was all a bunch of little things that added up, no big, huge deal except he had figured out how to negate the Miller effect, which reduces highs - which of course is something you probably don't want to reduce on guitar amps.

 

But, only the first point addresses my original question, and in my case the answer is "because it's a signal processor with a unique sound." In the case of the second example, it's not so much about a "tube" sound but about just sounding good. If Aphex had achieved the same sound with CK722 transistors, that would work for me

[ggm1960]

This is going to be a long, contentious thread, isn't it?

 

Naw, I don't care what people use. I have, and have had, various tube and solid state amps and frankly I like them all but I'd play through a transistor radio if that's all I had.

 

To me, it's more about the player than the amp. It's a silly argument to me so I just enjoy poking fun at snobby tube amp purists when I get the chance.

[Anderton]

I'd play through a transistor radio if that's all I had.

 

 

To me, it's more about the player than the amp.

But for some players, playing through a tube amp makes them happy, so they play better.

[MikeRivers]

Damfino! Although there is some very well designed and built modern tube equipment, much of it little besides a controllable source of distortion. I'd rather avoid distortion and get my "warmth" in other ways.

 

One good thing about tube equipment is that it's easier to troubleshoot and repair than solid state equipment because it uses fewer parts for a given function.

[Anderton]

 

One good thing about tube equipment is that it's easier to troubleshoot and repair than solid state equipment because it uses fewer parts for a given function.

 

 

And the parts are bigger...none of the surface-mounted stuff that can be fixed only by Chinese midgets with a degree in physics.

[Mark L]

I have a solid-state amp

 

I like the sounds I can get out of it

 

That's all that matters to me

[Lee Flier]

Well first of all, I don't want to emulate tube amps. I just want to use tube amps. Really, if I found something that would actually "emulate" the sound, feel and response of my tube amps without having to haul a heavy amp around, change tubes, etc., I'd have long since done that. But I haven't found anything like that.

 

As to why, I don't really care why. When it comes to choosing gear I base my decisions on the way it sounds and feels and whether it does what I want (or does things I hadn't expected but are inspiring and cool). As I say, the only thing that fulfills all those things for me are tube amps. I love what they do and I haven't found anything else that does what they do, so I use them. End of story. I don't care whether anyone else can hear a difference in a blind test or thinks a good tube amp needs more maintenance than it actually does, or any other silliness.

[Philter]

Just got 2 tube mics on permanent loan at the studio... Telefunken U-47 and Telefunken Ela M251... I don't know if it's the tubes or what, but they really do sound great. Also got a Fender tube amp and a couple Rivera tube amps... they sound really great too, not sure how much of that has to do with the tubes. Also loving the LA610 preamp... more tubes, again, not sure whats what, but all these things that happen to sound good, also have tubes.

 

I don't know the specifics but to my ear there's some harmonic excitement getting added, some EQ softening things up, and some degree of compression. All those things are useful, especially when you're recording digitally and looking for pleasing ways to take the edge off of recorded sounds.

[Lee Knight]

I remember getting a 1972 SVT in the mid 80's. Perfect condition. I had it brought back to spec. Up to this point I'd been using high quality solid state gear. It was the new way therefore better. Right?

 

I played that SVT onstage and...

 

...it was night and day. All those tubes doing whatever it is tubes do. The rhythm section sounded fatter. It was easier for me to do what I needed to do to make the sound I was hearing in my head. I always insisted they stick a mic on it. DI if you want but... use the mic.

 

I don't know why. Closest I've come is direct an LA2A.

[girevik]

I've played my electric guitars and violin through both solid state amplification and tube amps. Most of the time I keep the tube amps in a clean setting and get all my distortion from pedals. It seems like power tubes make a big difference in how the amp responds to playing dynamics - even when the amp is not distorting at all. When I pick or bow more loudly on my instrument, the peak volumes are higher on tube amps.

 

The one thing about modelers that is a bit of a headache is having to set up the levels properly for a show - you could have your levels dialed in perfectly for home practice, but when you get ready to play with the modeler onstage, you have to tweak some levels again, so that the dynamic response is appropriate - your loudest note doesn't overpower the band, or you have to dig into a note with more force than you normally would just to get heard. An external mixer between my modeler and powered speaker helps a lot in managing the levels and dynamic range. I do try to practice playing as softly as possible with amplification, to extend the dynamic range of my instruments, so onstage I can set the amp levels fairly high, but control dynamics with my hands.

[Bookumdano2]

Marketing hypnosis, money, and the cool challenges put on a programmer are the reasons everything goes through the emulation process. Everything sounds cool to me, whether its code, or a bunch of wires, motors, and glowing tubes.

 

At least we're living in an era where we can get our hands on anything we want all at the same time... tubes, solid state, sims. Isn't that just the coolest part of living right now with music?

 

All while the sims progammers continue to move ahead on development.

I'm jazzed to think about how the quality of sims will increase over the next few years.

 

In the meantime, there's a real tube for everything ... if you want it. Have you seen this crazy new take by Fender? -

http://www.fender.com/products/pawnshopamps#PSA-excelsior

[Anderton]

I don't know why.

 

Well that's why I started this thread, you don't know why and Lee doesn't care why...but I'm very curious as to why. If the desirable characteristic can be identified, then it could be possible to improve on it, enhance it, or come up with useful variations.

 

It's like people think tubes popped out of the womb fully grown and mature, but given that tubes are still being made, I'm surprised more people don't have the intellectual curiosity to see if "tubeness" could be taken even further. Or if people are, I'm not aware of it. The last thing I recall seeing was Aphex's Miller effect elimination trick which to my ears, made a MAJOR improvement in tube sound when used for preamps - as I said, it wasn't just better than solid state, it was better than tubes.

 

Doesn't anyone want a tube amp that's better than tube amps ? I suppose I should have titled this "what is the main tube characteristic people want to emulate" and that would have been clearer.

 

In fact, I'll change the title now...I can do this, I'm a mod!

 

Part of what got me thinking about this was playing with the XILS Synthix virtual analog synth. It really had an analog vibe to it, and trust me, I know what analog synths sound like. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out exactly why; I noticed that I couldn't detect any aliasing, or stepping in the filter cutoff. Also the noise level was extremely low. I think those were the main elements that made it sound "analog."

 

Those are the kind of things I'm looking for about tubes.

[MrKnobs]

tube mic preamps that are just wonderful. They have a sparkle and sweetness I not only can't get with solid state gear, I can't get it with other TUBE gear.

 

For recording, that's the holy grail. Before I had my Avalon 737sp I thought tubes would add warmth to vocals, but what they really do is add this glass like clarity, this sweet top end that is a beautiful thing to experience. It's like "looking" through perfect, clean glass at the vocal vs. scratched up, blurry plexiglass.

 

For live, you can't beat the sound of a single coil or P90 pickup through a tube amp pushed gently into power stage distortion, getting that nice magnetic saturation from the output transformer. Magic!

 

BTW, does anyone know if it's safe to BRUTALLY GOUGE OUT the side buttons on a Logitech mouse, the ones that go foward or back in a web page? Can't count the number of times I've finished a long, carefully thought out post only to lose it all by nicking one of those two side buttons and going back or forward a page.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Flier]

I really have no idea Craig. I think there's more than one desirable characteriistic. I'm sure it's some combination of the harmonics that are generated by tube amps and mics, which also affects the sound of deliberate tube distortion, and in the case of guitar amps the tube "sag" which determines how reponsive it is to your fingering and the guitar's pickups. But of course people have tried to emulate both of those things with pretty limited success in my opinion.

 

I disagree that no one's tried to improve on tubes or tube amps. Plenty of amp techs and even guitarists are familiar with tubes enough to know their characteristics and how they can be modified in different ways. Maybe the differences are mostly pretty subtle, and you wish people would do more radically different things with them, I don't know. But there are loads of both mass produced and custom tube amps where you can really push the characteristics of tubes in various ways, without having to actually modify the amp circuitry. That's pretty cool.

[Lee Flier]

And I agree with what Terry says about what tube preamps and mics do to the top end. Again, probably due to the harmonics.

[CTStump]

Doesn't anyone want a tube amp that's better than tube amps ? I suppose I should have titled this "what is the main tube characteristic people want to emulate" and that would have been clearer.

 

True dirtiness (if that's a proper word), once you get used to it it's hard to go any other way my friend (not to poke fun at the solid state realist's here).

[MikeRivers]

 

It's like people think tubes popped out of the womb fully grown and mature, but given that tubes are still being made,

 

 

A brilliant observation! To today's designers, tubes are mature and they aren't going to be something different next year or next month. About the only thing that they could do to improve tubes is to figure out how to make them more consistent rather than having to test each one (if you're going to put them in sound-critical service). Dual tubes are pretty stable, but the Compactrons, nuvistors, and the low plate voltage tubes never went anywhere (though I don't know why not). Ampex used nuvistors in the MR-70 recorder but I don't think they ever saw any other audio applications. People are buying a couple of Tektonix scope plug-ins and robbing of them of the tubes to find the best ones for their MR-70s (of which, I beleive, there were only about 100 in captivity).

 

 

I'm surprised more people don't have the intellectual curiosity to see if "tubeness" could be taken even further.

 

 

What? And leave show business? (old joke involving what comes out of an elephant) Today "retro" is in and making money. Design a new tube or a new tube circuit and it's not retro any more. It's like rebuilding a guitar amplifier with metal film resistors and repacing the wax paper capacitors with Nichicons. Technically it's better but most guitarists say "What happened???" and not in a nice way.

 

Besides, tube manufacturing is expensive and darn near impossible in the US. Aspen Pittman (father of Groove Tubes) was on the verge of getting a tube manufacturing facility going in the US but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive to meet the environmental requirements because of the materials used. Heck, Mike Spitz (ATR Tape) ran into the same thing setting up a tape factory. And the Russians and Chinese don't have the R&D staff to play around trying to make a better tube when they don't really know what would make a better tube.

 

So it's really kind of a sustaining industry now. Guitar amplifiers use most of the tubs manufactured today. There are a lot more guitar players than audiophiles, and they have nearly as much money. So basically, they've got a good thing going, it's not broken, so nobody's fixing it.

 

 

The last thing I recall seeing was Aphex's Miller effect elimination trick which to my ears, made a MAJOR improvement in tube sound when used for preamps - as I said, it wasn't just better than solid state, it was better than tubes.

 

 

That's an RF thing, where you have to do it to keep stages that you don't want to be oscillators from becoming oscillators. It's not a problem at audio frequencies, and it was a clever engineer who thought that stabilizing tube capacitance for a mic preamp would be a good idea. The "Tubessence" trick was getting the triode to act like a triode with a low plate voltage so they didn't have to build a high voltage power supply into a solid state device in order to include the "tube characteristic."

 

It really is a pretty clever circuit and I can see where it's worth a patent. But it doesn't make a tube sound more tubey or less tubey, it allows a tube to be incorporated into an audio circuit without a lot of cost. Not saying that's a bad thing, it's a matter of what you like. I never really cared for the Aphex 107 preamp. I prefer one with less distortion. Did anyone every use that circuit in a guitar amplifier?

[UstadKhanAli]

Naw, I don't care what people use. I have, and have had, various tube and solid state amps and frankly I like them all but I'd play through a transistor radio if that's all I had. To me, it's more about the player than the amp. It's a silly argument to me so I just enjoy poking fun at snobby tube amp purists when I get the chance.

 

 

I use a tube amp simply because I love the sound of it. I feel inspired. I played a bunch of amps, and the Carr Rambler did everything I wanted, and I felt truly inspired playing through it. I'm not a tube amp snob or a tube snob or anything. I don't know very much about them. I know what sounds I like, though. I use tube mic preamps and solid state mic preamps, also, and it's all good. I use tube microphones and non-tube microphones, and it's all good.

[claveslave]

I like the way they rattle :-)

[UstadKhanAli]

Well that's why I started this thread, you don't know why and Lee doesn't care why...but I'm very curious as to why. If the desirable characteristic can be identified, then it could be possible to improve on it, enhance it, or come up with useful variations.

 

I'm always interested in that kind of thing!

 

It's like people think tubes popped out of the womb fully grown and mature, but given that tubes are still being made, I'm surprised more people don't have the intellectual curiosity to see if "tubeness" could be taken even further. Or if people are, I'm not aware of it. The last thing I recall seeing was Aphex's Miller effect elimination trick which to my ears, made a MAJOR improvement in tube sound when used for preamps - as I said, it wasn't just better than solid state, it was better than tubes.

 

I always hear about people modifying their tube amps, tweaking them, trying new stuff, so I think it goes on quite often. Whether it's tube amps, tube mic preamps, tube mics, or anything else, I think people are always trying to tweak things. I've seen tube ribbon microphones. And there's so many different kinds of tube mic preamps, it's unbelievable. And it's the same thing with tube amps. Lots of different tweaks by people, trying to make them sound better.

 

Doesn't anyone want a tube amp that's better than tube amps ? I suppose I should have titled this "what is the main tube characteristic people want to emulate" and that would have been clearer.

 

I'd love to hear about a tube amp that's better than tube amps. I don't know what that would be, exactly, but anything new and different would be interesting.

 

As far as your "new" question, I don't know exactly. I know marketing people say it accents "musical" harmonics and can have a slight "compressing" effect, but I think there's more to it than that.

 

Part of what got me thinking about this was playing with the XILS Synthix virtual analog synth. It really had an analog vibe to it, and trust me, I know what analog synths sound like. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out exactly why; I noticed that I couldn't detect any aliasing, or stepping in the filter cutoff. Also the noise level was extremely low. I think those were the main elements that made it sound "analog." Those are the kind of things I'm looking for about tubes.

 

The emulations for virtual analog synths are getting quite impressive, aren't they? I'm not familiar with that one, but I was messing around with the Vacuum monophonic synth that comes with Pro Tools and getting some good sounds out of this. And for those of you who might be clucking, "Yeah, well, he doesn't really know what he's talking about...try comparing that to a *real* analog synth!", well, no. I have several analog synths, including a Korg MS-20.

 

Does it sound as good (big, fat, expressive, whatever) as a Korg MS-20? No.

 

But can it get fantastic sounds? Yeah.

 

I'm happy and I'll use it.