For those of you who think theres no skill in electronic music

[Preacher]

However, they would not be as widely known - not due to the changes in music, but instead the changes in media and communications that let a lot more people get attention, thus diminishing the greatness of the few.

This is what I was getting at. When I say changes in music - this is what I meant. Again, also why I don't think there will ever be another Elvis. Still, good points in your last few posts.

[Dehumanize]

The original video was really damn good.

 

That being said, that's not how most electronic producers play or create their music, it's usually done with virtual synths in a computer, some artists do use analog synths though, such as Deadmau5 who is very popular right now. EDM is a genre I associate more with songwriting talent than a learned skill. It takes a good ear to really be able to sculpt the ebb and flow, tension and release of any song, regardless of genre. It's simple to load a DAW and play around with sounds to get decent beats going, but to turn that into a naturally flowing song that really causes a reaction in people isn't not as simple as everybody wants to think. Guitar players are all too quick to trash EDM because there's no traditional instrument involved, and see them as nerds sitting behind computers, but that's plain ignorance.

 

Also, it's interesting that many musicians in this latest wave of popular dubstep are former rock musicians.

[spacequixote]

 

There's an incredible amount of expertise and musical knowledge required in making electronic music well. However, I think most people in that genre place a low premium on being able to duplicate that kind of thing live. These people who have incredible performance skills in that genre are largely the exception. However, that's missing the point entirely. Electronic producers and people who craft these tracks are like modern day composers. Sure, most composers in the days of classical music could play pretty well, but many were relative hacks at their instruments and that never stopped them from making great music. This idea that you need to write and perform your own music masterfully is a relatively new concept, maybe 50 years old. Electronic musicians are closer to composers than performers, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

This. I grew up listening to a lot of electronic music, then got more into rock and other kinds of music when I picked up the guitar more. I'll still listen to either, depending on my mood. A lot of electronic music is {censored} (as is a lot of sub-genres of rock), but there's some stuff out there that takes a lot of skill, if not necessarily the same skill it takes to play an instrument.

 

FWIW, John Frusciante's solo stuff meddles a bit with electronica, and there's this band that does a pretty good job bridging electronic beats and guitar:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_X8QYViW6A

[honeyiscool]

This is what I was getting at. When I say changes in music - this is what I meant. Again, also why I don't think there will ever be another Elvis. Still, good points in your last few posts.

People said there will never be another Elvis. Then people said there will never be another Beatles. Then, people said there will be another Michael Jackson. I'm not saying that MJ > Elvis, because it's a silly thing to argue, but the point is, there are people who continue to make waves.

[DaveAronow]

 

The music department chair at the school I attended was both a great classical, choral, and worship composer AND an avid electronic music composer. He not only taught classical composition and techniques, he also taught synth, recording, and electronic composition classes. Actually, he wrote the book on electronic music, quite literally. Point being, I shouldn't need to start dropping names and examples here to show you you're being closed minded. We have very similar tastes, I love most of the music you love. I just don't hate the music you hate.

 

 

But you are reading something into what I said that I actually never said. How on EARTH do you have any idea of what music I hate seeing as how in almost 16,000 posts here I've never even so much as whispered at hating anything unless you consider my affinity to occasionally "mess" with the die hard clapton fans here as "hating" something in which case I could understand the confusion but still you would be wrong.

 

Congratulations on your professor as well and I would be happily willing to listen to anything he composes or performs with an op mind, but keep in mind when we are using phrases like "as good as any of history's greatest classical composers which Is what you appear to be proposing, just know that for those words my standards are going to be extremely high and I won't be listening to it with very much reguard as to which particular instrument electronic or otherwise it was played on and will only be listening to see if it is in fact on a par with some of the greatest music of all time no matter the instruments used.

 

So go ahead and name drop.

 

You got my attention, I'm interested.

 

Dazzle me.

 

What you got?

[Danhedonia]

I really love music -- all of it. I care much more about how it makes me feel, rather than how it was made (unless it goes well outside of my personal ethics - hiya, Death Row Records).

 

I try to make electronic music myself. I try to make rock music myself. I try to make music myself.

 

Am I getting anywhere with anyone yet? The OP video was not enjoyable to me; the equivalent of watching a very skilled shredder "nail a Malmsteen solo." Sorry. There's a ton of skill involved - in this case, misapplied.

 

Dave, I appreciate what you wrote very much. As far as composers go, I would also submit the name of Giorgio Moroder along with Eno, Jarre ... there's a whole bunch. Would I consider Deadmau5 in Beethoven's league? No. He could get to Berlioz status with another decade of great work, perhaps. And it wouldn't hurt if he began to focus on musical formats that were not oriented towards dancefloor listening situations.

 

What I wonder is why there's a need to make so many distinctions? Music is meant to evoke - you can hear it in the syncopated turn of washing machines at a laundromat, or Yo Yo Ma sawing away at a Stradivarius ... music is rhythm and melody put together to evoke a feeling.

[DaveAronow]

 

I really love music -- all of it. I care much more about how it makes me feel, rather than how it was made (unless it goes well outside of my personal ethics - hiya, Death Row Records). I try to make electronic music myself. I try to make rock music myself. I try to make music myself.I Am I getting anywhere with anyone yet? The OP video was not enjoyable to me; the equivalent of watching a very skilled shredder "nail a Malmsteen solo." Sorry. There's a ton of skill involved - in this case, misapplied. Dave, I appreciate what you wrote very much. As far as composers go, I would also submit the name of Giorgio Moroder along with Eno, Jarre ... there's a whole bunch. Would I consider Deadmau5 in Beethoven's league? No. He could get to Berlioz status with another decade of great work, perhaps. And it wouldn't hurt if he began to focus on musical formats that were not oriented towards dancefloor listening situations. What I wonder is why there's a need to make so many distinctions? Music is meant to evoke - you can hear it in the syncopated turn of washing machines at a laundromat, or Yo Yo Ma sawing away at a Stradivarius ... music is rhythm and melody put together to evoke a feeling.

 

 

On a related note, I'm absolutely positive some of the great composers of centuries ago would be using whatever instruments were available today including midi triggering and sequencing devices, standard drum kits, electric guitars, keyboards etc.

 

This is why I will always be way more concerned with what my ears are hearing rather than the physical tools that bring those musical ideas into reality.

 

The tools are only that, tools, and in my opinion all of them are fair game.

 

I really only care in the end what someone creates musically in the end.

 

Also, I don't even equate the technical ability that is happening with playing a shred Yngwie type piece. Putting the subjectivity of music "quality" completely aside I still think it would be exponentially harder to either compose an Yngwie style piece than it would be to compose or perform the piece in the Op.

It is just that some aren't used to seeing or playing this style so what is involved, looks as strange and complicated as a simple 1.4.5. Chord progression looks to a non musician.

 

Now go back and watch it from a physical complexity standpoint and you will see that it is not even the technical equivalent of playing a Joplin style ragtime piece on piano which scores of kids on youtube and across the world have already nailed, or the technical equivalent of playing a moderately involved average rock song on guitar. Watch what the guys hands are doing and then tell me if you think it is any more technically challenging or demanding than playing guitar or piano?

 

So what? It's all about the music anyway? Who cares?

 

My point exactly. I'm just surprised to see so many people blown away by this.

 

To me it looks like just another average musician, playing with average technical ability, making average music, but it just happens to be on an "instrument" that people aren't used to seeing and so it therefore looks strange and somehow way more complex than it is.

 

I remember when the big "looper" popularity exploded and the first people out of the box were all being touted as amazing, and geniuses etc. even back then I was saying, yeah, it's cool, but ANYBODY that can put together all the parts to a song and is able to press a few buttons with his feet can build a song with a looper. It is a really cool technology but alot of the things that seemed to first amaze people with it don't even get a second look now, because familiarity with it has taken the mystery out of it and now people can see that it is nowhere near as complicated or involved as it first appeared, also because many of those starry eyed gawkers have now done it themselves and have seen for themselves that a lot of what they used to think was amazing, was really something more or less any musician can do if he can remember when to press a few buttons and in which order. The mystery and therefore the perceived complexity is gone.

 

The performance in the op takes a certain amount of musical and technical skill. But to me it is far from amazing and on a par with someone playing a song on a keyboard with relative competence.

 

It is not anything more than that though, and back to what I originally said about it NOT being Beethoven, either musically, or technically, which some people were actually implying comparison to.

[grungehack]

The original video was really damn good. That being said, that's not how most electronic producers play or create their music, it's usually done with virtual synths in a computer, some artists do use analog synths though, such as Deadmau5 who is very popular right now. EDM is a genre I associate more with songwriting talent than a learned skill. It takes a good ear to really be able to sculpt the ebb and flow, tension and release of any song, regardless of genre. It's simple to load a DAW and play around with sounds to get decent beats going, but to turn that into a naturally flowing song that really causes a reaction in people isn't not as simple as everybody wants to think. Guitar players are all too quick to trash EDM because there's no traditional instrument involved, and see them as nerds sitting behind computers, but that's plain ignorance. Also, it's interesting that many musicians in this latest wave of popular dubstep are former rock musicians.

 

 

 

Couldn't have put it any better myself. Even just mixing a house/techno compilation isn't that easy. John Digweed is the best I've heard (opinion). Trying to make a mix flow like a story takes lots of time, practice, and a great sense of space & context of the overall mix. I think a lot of guitar players/bands hate on dj's mostly for taking their gigs.

[grunge782]

People said there will never be another Elvis. Then people said there will never be another Beatles. Then, people said there will be another Michael Jackson. I'm not saying that MJ > Elvis, because it's a silly thing to argue, but the point is, there are people who continue to make waves.

 

 

Truth. However, there will never be another T-Pain.

 

 

[knotty]

Power supply, cable, pickups, tone pot, cable, compressor, looper, effects pedal, amp, speaker, mic, cable, i/o box, computer, mixing desk, output, pa.

Give me electric guitar anyday over that electronic crap.

[Engl Kramer]

On a related note, I'm absolutely positive some of the great composers of centuries ago would be using whatever instruments were available today including midi triggering and sequencing devices, standard drum kits, electric guitars, keyboards etc. This is why I will always be way more concerned with what my ears are hearing rather than the physical tools that bring those musical ideas into reality. The tools are only that, tools, and in my opinion all of them are fair game. I really only care in the end what someone creates musically in the end. Also, I don't even equate the technical ability that is happening with playing a shred Yngwie type piece. Putting the subjectivity of music "quality" completely aside I still think it would be exponentially harder to either compose an Yngwie style piece than it would be to compose or perform the piece in the Op. It is just that some aren't used to seeing or playing this style so what is involved, looks as strange and complicated as a simple 1.4.5. Chord progression looks to a non musician. Now go back and watch it from a physical complexity standpoint and you will see that it is not even the technical equivalent of playing a Joplin style ragtime piece on piano which scores of kids on youtube and across the world have already nailed, or the technical equivalent of playing a moderately involved average rock song on guitar. Watch what the guys hands are doing and then tell me if you think it is any more technically challenging or demanding than playing guitar or piano? So what? It's all about the music anyway? Who cares? My point exactly. I'm just surprised to see so many people blown away by this. To me it looks like just another average musician, playing with average technical ability, making average music, but it just happens to be on an "instrument" that people aren't used to seeing and so it therefore looks strange and somehow way more complex than it is. I remember when the big "looper" popularity exploded and the first people out of the box were all being touted as amazing, and geniuses etc. even back then I was saying, yeah, it's cool, but ANYBODY that can put together all the parts to a song and is able to press a few buttons with his feet can build a song with a looper. It is a really cool technology but alot of the things that seemed to first amaze people with it don't even get a second look now, because familiarity with it has taken the mystery out of it and now people can see that it is nowhere near as complicated or involved as it first appeared, also because many of those starry eyed gawkers have now done it themselves and have seen for themselves that a lot of what they used to think was amazing, was really something more or less any musician can do if he can remember when to press a few buttons and in which order. The mystery and therefore the perceived complexity is gone. The performance in the op takes a certain amount of musical and technical skill. But to me it is far from amazing and on a par with someone playing a song on a keyboard with relative competence. It is not anything more than that though, and back to what I originally said about it NOT being Beethoven, either musically, or technically, which some people were actually implying comparison to.

 

 

I understand people saying they don't like the song in the clip.

I don't have a lot of free time in my day so I only listen to the stuff that gives me that feeling- regardless of merit or perceived cool factor or whether something is 'good' i don't give a monkeys.

I wouldn't bother listening to the track in the OP - it's too generic, clubby, a bit clean, a bit young if I'm honest.

But the skill is amazing.

I play keys. Enough to get by in my songs.

Just to remind you- keys are the great big things that are in a logical order only two rows deep that trigger the same notes for every piece you will ever play.

 

Dave- I remember a while ago you made a thread that basically said - if you think writing a hit song is easy, show us what you've got. Well I'm calling you out mate cos you're full of {censored}.

Lets see you play this stuff it then if its so easy. I know you don't like the stuff but I'm sure if you can play some triggers on a keyboard you know what you're doing.

Or anyone else on here - put your money where your mouth is.

 

I did a 2 year full time Music Technology course at college and one of the modules was DJ.

I had to learn how to mix and scratch with a bunch of kids half my age.

It was {censored}ing hard let me tell you- even matching beats on two tracks with the same bpm or learning a few of the basic scratch techniques (I never even got as far as the cross fader in 2 years).

It makes me laugh how guitarists think because they can play guitar they know it all.

 

Any takers?

[Danhedonia]

I could never feel good about using language like the OP, but I do echo one question he poses for Dave (and Dave - I do this from a nice POV, btw, please don't lump me in with Mr. Angry Agenda here ...): Have you ever tried to do this? I mean THIS: the whole 9 yards with a trigger machine, and/or sequencer, etc.

 

I have, and my opinion is that what was shown in the original video is, in fact, just as difficult. (aside: let's assume no edits, just for giggles.) What I've found is that with electronic music performed live, *timing* is much more crucial than with most string instruments. If one has been in a studio doing rhythm tracking, one knows that hitting notes down to a hundredth of a second - with feel - can be maddening. Charlie Watts, btw, is a {censored}ing genius at playing either just on top of or just behind the beat.

 

However, with dance music, even the tiniest of mistimed taps can sound utterly crap. While the sample triggered surely doesn't contain live playing, the act of hitting all of those triggers just right is, IMHO, harder than double tapping solos. Dave, if I read you right, you find a Malmsteen type thing more appealing to your ears than something like what the OP put up - I strongly differ. That's cool - I like when people have different tastes and opinions and explain them to me, because often that's how I learn to appreciate things I didn't before, and my world gets better and larger.

 

And having tried (and failed) to double-tap, I can appreciate the skill involved that much more.

 

Now having tried to do some live electronic stuff, I see how hard it is. It's hard, man. Seriously. One thing that has absolutely bent me over musically is my inability to learn any kind of recording software (topic for another thread, it's not just a poor attitude on my part, though I do have one now). That means when I make electronic music, I have to play it live - I don't even know how to sync two different Korg products like my Kaossilator and the iElectribe. Pathetic, yeah - but does give me an appreciation.

 

It's hardly unusual for a newer art form to have less traction with traditionalists; and really, HCEG is pretty rife with musical traditionalists. But I don't think anyone's world would come tumbling down if they took a week to open their minds to the musical possibilities of DJing, musique concrete ... etc. I guess I'm saying 'why focus on the competitive part, try to appreciate the skill involved.' And one way to do that is to give it a go yourself.

 

To the OP - I think you're masking your points with some really aggressive tones, which really makes this devolve into a waste of time. I do agree with most of what you say that's descriptive, but try unwrapping your nastiness a bit. Saying something like "guitar players think they know it all" is a sweeping generalization as silly as saying "all Australians are mindlessly aggressive tools." See what I'm saying there? A lot of guitar players are very interested in all aspects of music. Your pooping in the verbal punchbowl does nothing but allow you to blow of misplaced anger.

[sammyreynolds01]

Maybe the OP needs to sell his guitars ( if he has any) since he things this is the {censored}. I know in other countries it does well but I haven't ever seen 40,000 people going to an arena to see this stuff.

[Pine Apple Slim]

Yep, a very skillful piece of utter crap that I wouldn't force on my worst enemy.

[Engl Kramer]

I could never feel good about using language like the OP, but I do echo one question he poses for Dave (and Dave - I do this from a nice POV, btw, please don't lump me in with Mr. Angry Agenda here ...): Have you ever tried to do this? I mean THIS: the whole 9 yards with a trigger machine, and/or sequencer, etc. I have, and my opinion is that what was shown in the original video is, in fact, just as difficult. (aside: let's assume no edits, just for giggles.) What I've found is that with electronic music performed live, *timing* is much more crucial than with most string instruments. If one has been in a studio doing rhythm tracking, one knows that hitting notes down to a hundredth of a second - with feel - can be maddening. Charlie Watts, btw, is a {censored}ing genius at playing either just on top of or just behind the beat. However, with dance music, even the tiniest of mistimed taps can sound utterly crap. While the sample triggered surely doesn't contain live playing, the act of hitting all of those triggers just right is, IMHO, harder than double tapping solos. Dave, if I read you right, you find a Malmsteen type thing more appealing to your ears than something like what the OP put up - I strongly differ. That's cool - I like when people have different tastes and opinions and explain them to me, because often that's how I learn to appreciate things I didn't before, and my world gets better and larger. And having tried (and failed) to double-tap, I can appreciate the skill involved that much more. Now having tried to do some live electronic stuff, I see how hard it is. It's hard, man. Seriously. One thing that has absolutely bent me over musically is my inability to learn any kind of recording software (topic for another thread, it's not just a poor attitude on my part, though I do have one now). That means when I make electronic music, I have to play it live - I don't even know how to sync two different Korg products like my Kaossilator and the iElectribe. Pathetic, yeah - but does give me an appreciation. It's hardly unusual for a newer art form to have less traction with traditionalists; and really, HCEG is pretty rife with musical traditionalists. But I don't think anyone's world would come tumbling down if they took a week to open their minds to the musical possibilities of DJing, musique concrete ... etc. I guess I'm saying 'why focus on the competitive part, try to appreciate the skill involved.' And one way to do that is to give it a go yourself. To the OP - I think you're masking your points with some really aggressive tones, which really makes this devolve into a waste of time. I do agree with most of what you say that's descriptive, but try unwrapping your nastiness a bit. Saying something like "guitar players think they know it all" is a sweeping generalization as silly as saying "all Australians are mindlessly aggressive tools." See what I'm saying there? A lot of guitar players are very interested in all aspects of music. Your pooping in the verbal punchbowl does nothing but allow you to blow of misplaced anger.

Yeah- guilty as charged.
Note to self - don't post at 3 in the morning after a night on the vino.
Apologies to all and especially Dave for mouthing off like an arse.