For those of you who think theres no skill in electronic music

[Flatspotter]

 

OK cool. I'd shake your hand but I don't know if you've put your pitch fork down;)

 

 

I'd put it in my other hand, but that's holding the torch.

[Preacher]

Really? Show me the electronic equivalent of Beethoven, or Oscar Peterson, or Mark O'Connor, or Jascha Heifetz or Jerry Douglas. Because what was posted in the OP AIN't it.

EDIT: OP beat me with Eno and James.

My post focused on composition as opposed to live performance. Each artist you mention has their own music and I cannot rank one above the other as music is largely subjective (proficiency on a specific instrument, on the other hand, may elevate one above another).

Nevertheless, Brian Eno, Vangelis, and Aphex Twin come to mind off the top of my head as having composed some beautiful and highly influential work. Air has also consistently produced excellent pop-oriented work for some time now.

Electronic stuff that folks dance to and other up-tempo works? Blue Monday is the biggest selling 12" of all time. Moby has gotten folks out on the floor for years. Daftpunk's Discovery album was fantastic and a good followup to Homework.

[Alan Roberts]

[Kace]

 

 

I wouldn't say there's no skill in it.

 

I don't like it at all, I'll put that out there, but that's irrelevant. As far as "skill" goes, who wrote, sang, played, and progammed all the clips that are being used and basically pasted together by the dj? I always viewed DJs like this as basically editors - they didn't write anything, or act, or do the camera work, or really even direct, but they manage to find and put together pieces of various works in rhythmic and (hopefully) creative ways to shape the outcome. It is a skill, I think it's just a different one than a "traditional" musician generally uses.

 

I could probably not pick up whatever that thing is he has and do what he did so yes, I'm sure there's skill and practice involved.

[peskypesky]

i'd rather listen to this....

 

 

[DaveAronow]

Lol

[GAS Man]

My first, second and third thoughts were "it may be skill, but it still seems pointless".

 

I'm a long fan of electronic music from Virgil Fox, Walter Carlos, Jean Michel Jarre, Tangerine Dream, and more recently Brian Eno. But I don't want that.

 

But music is art and art is sooooo subjective. So enjoy.

[steve_man]

Pretty sweet video!

[Engl Kramer]

I wouldn't say there's no skill in it. I don't like it at all, I'll put that out there, but that's irrelevant. As far as "skill" goes, who wrote, sang, played, and progammed all the clips that are being used and basically pasted together by the dj? I always viewed DJs like this as basically editors - they didn't write anything, or act, or do the camera work, or really even direct, but they manage to find and put together pieces of various works in rhythmic and (hopefully) creative ways to shape the outcome. It is a skill, I think it's just a different one than a "traditional" musician generally uses. I could probably not pick up whatever that thing is he has and do what he did so yes, I'm sure there's skill and practice involved.

In my opinion its the same principle as playing a keyboard except that he is also playing the drum part on a keyboard that is not linear but a bunch of tiny buttons arranged in a grid.
I don't know if it's somehow quantised but he seems to be playing it in time to me.
Whatever anyone says I'm amazed at the dexterity involved- whether you like the piece of music is not the point of the thread.

You might not want to do what hes doing and you might think you're superior cos you're playing 'real music' on a 'real instrument' that's made of wood-
you might even get really insecure and start talking about classical composers for christs sake- but you would acknowledge his skill if you weren't such a traditionist and intimidated by 'new things'.
But feel free to high five each other for moral support.

[Engl Kramer]

Above post not directed at Kace.

[DaveAronow]

 

Above post not directed at Kace.

 

 

I know who the post is directed at. That's fine. You have no idea what intimidates me.

 

I have probably the most diverse apprececiation for all types and forms of music out of anyone you have ever met.

 

I DO recognize the talent that goes into something like this.

 

 

 

It MAY be the musical equivalent of playing a guitar pretty well, if you consider the trigger pad just some new form of instrument, which I can agree with.

 

I am not afraid of new things, or close minded at all. In fact it is the opposite.

 

As a person that plays about a dozen instruments and also has thousands of hours working with midi devices, programming drums, using various triggering devices including machines.like the akai mpc series among others, I probably have a better appreciation for what goes into something like this than most people. I can appreciate what it is, but I can also recognize what it isn't. I was reacting to the specific comment that was made about this being on par with what some of the great classical composers of history have done, or whatever the phrase was.

 

Yes, there is a talent involved in "performing" on any "instrument" well.

 

But for someone that has seen this type of thing over again, and has done similar type performances, I have also spent many hours playing and recording real time complex drum patterns using a piano type keyboard for triggering, that I have a pretty good grasp of what it would take to pull off the performance in the Op.

 

Although this might seem super cool, mystical and magical and massively impressive to people that have never seen such a thing before, it is so far removed from what happens in the brains, and fingers of the world's greatest "musicians" such as those I mentioned earlier, that it should be a musical crime to mention it in the same sentence.

 

Once again, the op performance could be interpreted as interesting and cool.

 

Also, I agree that ANY "instrument " can be used in a way to demonstrate absolute musical genius including a midi controller depending on what is done with it. So if you go back and reread what I said, you will NOT see where I disagrees with the potential of that point.

 

I only said, THIS performance was NOT even close to the talent skill and genius that would go into composing and performing a major symphony or opera, or even some of the simplest etudes written by some of those dudes.

 

I do have an appreciation for the op performance. I knave a very educated estimate of what it would take to pull that performance off based on experience.

 

Give me that controller, Nd I can chip up bits if samples, program them into pads, arrange them into a "song", and practice it up to that performance level in about a week.

 

And I'm NO musical genius. In fact MOST people that already play instruments like pianos and guitars, etc, could do it.

 

THAT is why It is not blowing my mind as much as it seems to be doing to some of y'all.

 

It's cool, but let's put it in perspective for what it isn't as well.

 

And even though the performance is solid, if you actually want to get into the composition itself, which is subjective anyway, it is not something I would ever want to listen to twice for the music of it which is the whole point of performing music anyway. And I like A.LOT of electronic music. I didn't find this piece particularly moving, inspiring or even interesting just upon listening to it.

 

It AIN't Beethovens ninth symphony.In fact it is not even close to being on par with a performance from a second or third year talented violin recital and and to suggest even suggest such a thing could only come from a place of ignorance and inexperience.

 

I hope this clarifies my "insecurity" and ignorance of the subject.

 

Maybe someday the electronic equivalent of Bach or Brahms will come along. But I haven't ever even seen a hint of it yet.

[Engl Kramer]

I know who the post is directed at. That's fine. You have no idea what intimidates me. I have probably the most diverse apprececiation for all types and forms of music out of anyone you have ever met. I DO recognize the talent that goes into something like this. It MAY be the musical equivalent of playing a guitar pretty well, if you consider the trigger pad just some new form of instrument, which I can agree with. I am not afraid of new things, or close minded at all. In fact it is the opposite. As a person that plays about a dozen instruments and also has thousands of hours working with midi devices, programming drums, using various triggering devices including machines.like the akai mpc series among others, I probably have a better appreciation for what goes into something like this than most people. I can appreciate what it is, but I can also recognize what it isn't. I was reacting to the specific comment that was made about this being on par with what some of the great classical composers of history have done, or whatever the phrase was. Yes, there is a talent involved in "performing" on any "instrument" well. But for someone that has seen this type of thing over again, and has done similar type performances, I have also spent many hours playing and recording real time complex drum patterns using a piano type keyboard for triggering, that I have a pretty good grasp of what it would take to pull off the performance in the Op. Although this might seem super cool, mystical and magical and massively impressive to people that have never seen such a thing before, it is so far removed from what happens in the brains, and fingers of the world's greatest "musicians" such as those I mentioned earlier, that it should be a musical crime to mention it in the same sentence. Once again, the op performance could be interpreted as interesting and cool. Also, I agree that ANY "instrument " can be used in a way to demonstrate absolute musical genius including a midi controller depending on what is done with it. So if you go back and reread what I said, you will NOT see where I disagrees with the potential of that point. I only said, THIS performance was NOT even close to the talent skill and genius that would go into composing and performing a major symphony or opera, or even some of the simplest etudes written by some of those dudes. I do have an appreciation for the op performance. I knave a very educated estimate of what it would take to pull that performance off based on experience. Give me that controller, Nd I can chip up bits if samples, program them into pads, arrange them into a "song", and practice it up to that performance level in about a week. And I'm NO musical genius. In fact MOST people that already play instruments like pianos and guitars, etc, could do it. THAT is why It is not blowing my mind as much as it seems to be doing to some of y'all. It's cool, but let's put it in perspective for what it isn't as well. And even though the performance is solid, if you actually want to get into the composition itself, which is subjective anyway, it is not something I would ever want to listen to twice for the music of it which is the whole point of performing music anyway. And I like A.LOT of electronic music. I didn't find this piece particularly moving, inspiring or even interesting just upon listening to it. It AIN't Beethovens ninth symphony.In fact it is not even close to being on par with a performance from a second or third year talented violin recital and and to suggest even suggest such a thing could only come from a place of ignorance and inexperience. I hope this clarifies my "insecurity" and ignorance of the subject. Maybe someday the electronic equivalent of Bach or Brahms will come along. But I haven't ever even seen a hint of it yet.

 

 

OK fair enough you were responding to the comment about composition.

For the record as a piece of music the song in the OP does little for me although I appreciate it is well written for what it is ( + theres some nice syncopation in a couple of sections that was also pretty funky I thought).

However if you can perform something anything like this complex so fluidly I am in awe of you. I've also played drum beats live on a keyboard before and its hard to keep in time playing a simple beat. If I had to do it on a controller like that my old brain would crash. If I had to play an entire piece with key changes and parts where it was necessary to hop across the entire controller without accidentally pressing the 1cm keys on all 4 sides of the ones you're trying to press I would bluescreen and have to live in sheltered accommodation.

If I had posted a video of a pretty girl of dubious age playing shred everyone would be falling over themselves to leave praise.

If I posted an 8 yr old playing Hotel California half decently everyone would be wetting themselves.

Thats why I'm getting my knickers in a twist.

BTW did you listen to the pieces I posted

[Preacher]

Maybe someday the electronic equivalent of Bach or Brahms will come along. But I haven't ever even seen a hint of it yet.

 

 

Music is in a different place now. I don't believe the musical genius of the sort held by Bach or Brahms would be recognized today regardless of the genre in which it expressed itself. Perhaps in the estimation of some, but never as widely regarded. For this reason (amongst others) there will also never be another Elvis.

[chuck1016]

I just had this discussion with a coworker (who DJs) a couple weeks ago. There's tallent there for sure. I'm not knocking anyone's ability, my problem is when people demand that DJs are musicians. The way I see it, pasting a bunch of photographs together to make a beautiful collage takes talent, but it doesn't make you a photographer.

[GREC]

This type of 'music' reminds me of artists who pull stuff out of garbage cans & call it 'art'.
...and I've been a fan of electronic music since the 70's

[Preacher]

I just had this discussion with a coworker (who DJs) a couple weeks ago. There's tallent there for sure. I'm not knocking anyone's ability, my problem is when people demand that DJs are musicians. The way I see it, pasting a bunch of photographs together to make a beautiful collage takes talent, but it doesn't make you a photographer.

 

 

I suppose it depends on what kind of "DJ" we're talking about - wedding and radio DJs? Agree with you. Nevertheless, I feel that the definition of "music" is pretty abstract as it is largely deemed to be such by the hearer; "photography" is fairly well defined. I am not a fan of folks who just do a dance remix e.g. adding a 4/4 club beat behind a pop track, but imo samples can be used to create some compelling music.

[Engl Kramer]

This type of 'music' reminds me of artists who pull stuff out of garbage cans & call it 'art'. ...and I've been a fan of electronic music since the 70's

 

 

Sooooooo - I'm trying to figure out the difference between this and someone playing a keyboard a la 70s electronic music.

Is is the shape you don't like?

Is it that you think the sound of the notes should be made by the keyboard itself as opposed to triggering another soundsource?

[AxAxSxS]

This is a guitar forum. Just sayin....

[Engl Kramer]

I just had this discussion with a coworker (who DJs) a couple weeks ago. There's tallent there for sure. I'm not knocking anyone's ability, my problem is when people demand that DJs are musicians. The way I see it, pasting a bunch of photographs together to make a beautiful collage takes talent, but it doesn't make you a photographer.

 

These things are relative.

We've all heard music that's just a loop of an existing song and another sample from another track over the top.

The song in the OP was not that - it was individual notes, chords and drum hits which were played in real time with immense skill.

I would say most guitarists are nothing more than collage makers, regurgitating licks they've heard and been playing ad infinitum for years, with in many cases very average skill or imagination.

[honeyiscool]

There's an incredible amount of expertise and musical knowledge required in making electronic music well. However, I think most people in that genre place a low premium on being able to duplicate that kind of thing live. These people who have incredible performance skills in that genre are largely the exception. However, that's missing the point entirely. Electronic producers and people who craft these tracks are like modern day composers. Sure, most composers in the days of classical music could play pretty well, but many were relative hacks at their instruments and that never stopped them from making great music. This idea that you need to write and perform your own music masterfully is a relatively new concept, maybe 50 years old. Electronic musicians are closer to composers than performers, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Engl Kramer]

 

There's an incredible amount of expertise and musical knowledge required in making electronic music well. However, I think most people in that genre place a low premium on being able to duplicate that kind of thing live. These people who have incredible performance skills in that genre are largely the exception. However, that's missing the point entirely. Electronic producers and people who craft these tracks are like modern day composers. Sure, most composers in the days of classical music could play pretty well, but many were relative hacks at their instruments and that never stopped them from making great music. This idea that you need to write and perform your own music masterfully is a relatively new concept, maybe 50 years old. Electronic musicians are closer to composers than performers, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I agree with everything you wrote.

Electronic live events are not usually about performance. People haven't usually turned up to idolise a performer or discuss their merits so much as to hear new music and to dance.

In that sense it's much less egocentric.

[Arr0wHead]

Really? Show me the electronic equivalent of Beethoven, or Oscar Peterson, or Mark O'Connor, or Jascha Heifetz or Jerry Douglas. Because what was posted in the OP AIN't it.

 

 

The music department chair at the school I attended was both a great classical, choral, and worship composer AND an avid electronic music composer. He not only taught classical composition and techniques, he also taught synth, recording, and electronic composition classes. Actually, he wrote the book on electronic music, quite literally.

 

Point being, I shouldn't need to start dropping names and examples here to show you you're being closed minded. We have very similar tastes, I love most of the music you love. I just don't hate the music you hate.

[Arr0wHead]

Music is in a different place now. I don't believe the musical genius of the sort held by Bach or Brahms would be recognized today

 

When Bach was alive, he didn't want to play piano. He wanted to play the entire orchestra. Not only would his genius not be inhibited in modern climates, he would likely be overjoyed at modern sample technology, DAWS, and the ability to engrave his scores electronically and perform them back EXACTLY as he intended with any sound he could imagine. In fact, I think if anything musicians like Mozart, Bach, and Chopin would be even more prolific in modern times. However, they would not be as widely known - not due to the changes in music, but instead the changes in media and communications that let a lot more people get attention, thus diminishing the greatness of the few.

[PrawnHeed]

 

I agree with everything you wrote. Electronic live events are not usually about performance. People haven't usually turned up to idolise a performer or discuss their merits so much as to hear new music and to dance. In that sense it's much less egocentric.

 

 

Most classical music was origanally dance music too.

[Arr0wHead]

The way I see it, pasting a bunch of photographs together to make a beautiful collage takes talent, but it doesn't make you a photographer.

 

 

You're confusing your comparison. Try looking this way -

 

Music:Art

Playing a specific instrument:Photography.

 

Pulling photos together into a collage does not make one a photographer. It DOES make them an artist. Whether or not you like their art is irrelevant - they're still an artist.