What do you think about this comment regarding far eastern guitars?

[George Crosley]

 

its pretty easy to make a guitar.

 

 

...and even easier to keep a Chinese worker a happy camper when compared to an American, European or Japanese worker responsible for executing the same task. At the risk of stating the obvious, it's the main reason many Asian guitars of good quality are so inexpensive.

 

My favorite guitar happens to be a CIJ Fender. Outstanding craftsmenship. The Japanese really put out some beautiful electric guitars in the 1990s.

 

I think there's merit in the OPs reasoning. Whether or not his guitars are any better than other Chinese product is unknown to me. I do believe that in recent years the Chinese, Indonesians and Vietnamese contract manufacturers have upped their game. Perhaps copying better quality prototypes is part of it.

 

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on my most recent purchase. It's a Chinese Squier Classic Vibe 50's Tele that I'm waiting for Hello Music to ship. I've only heard good things about this guitar. Very good things.

[Angry Tele]

 

...and even easier to keep a Chinese worker a happy camper when compared to an American or European responsible for executing the same task. It's the main reason Asian guitars are so inexpensive.

 

 

yup. I used to be a union laborer in Jersey, wed show up to a job and 1 drop of rain hit us, wed go home with a full days pay, about $150 back then. (1990s) Loved that job! wed get paid to picket, again $20/hour to stand there all day (6 hours)or slash tires. {censored} ruled! kickbacks, stolen equipment, free marble, id take home $1,000 checks cleared for sweeping a floor all week ....ah good times. Go USA!

[Grantus]

I think the comment is pretty dishonest for a guy with guitars made in China. Chinese manufacturers making guitars for U.S. companies have never gotten their hands on a U.S. guitar to see how it's done? Really? That seems to be his argument.

 

The reason some Eastern guitars might not be as good as some U.S. guitars is because they are made to a price point. Making guitars to a price point involves compromises. Given that building guitars is not rocket science, companies are going to take the same short cuts to build to a price point.

[Presc]

I'm confused. Aren't those firms just contract manufacturers? Somebody (like him) designs and specifies the guitar, and contracts it out to one of these southeast asian factories to get built.

 

Any failures to follow the "proper" philosophy of building guitars should be attributable to the designer, not the manufacturer. It's like blaming Hon Hai because you don't like something about the iPhone. That's on Apple. They just build it as they're told. And that's the reality - these guitars are specified and designed from the ground up to hit a price point. There's no intention for these guitars to match a vintage Martin. They're built to make sound and be cheap.

 

People like to argue about the superiority of one nation versus the other...MIJ, MIA, European, whatever. It's not the country of origin. It's about who is building the guitar and what they decide the guitar is going to represent. No nationality has an inherent ability to build guitars, so anybody in any country who puts their mind to building a guitar with good materials and proper allocation of time to details (fretwork etc) will produce a good guitar. But the reality is the bulk of guitars coming out of certain countries are designed to be pumped out, not made with care.

[DaveAronow]

 

its pretty easy to make a guitar.

 

 

Edit: It is pretty easy to make an EXCELLENT guitar for anyone with the experience and knowlege to know what parameters and factors contribute to making a gutar play and sound excellent, and also be structurally sound and visually appealing, and as long as the luthier has access to the correct tools, parts and materials, and has a reasonable amount of skill and experience to use them effectively.

 

If soneone has all that, tgen, yeah, Id say it is pretty easy.

 

Still though, I have just described a situation that thousands of people have access to, scattered all across the globe.

 

Yes, there are thousands of people alive right now that could produce an awesome guitar from scratch.

 

And it potentially could happen in any country on any continent at any time.

[soundcreation]

 

I'm confused. Aren't those firms just contract manufacturers? Somebody (like him) designs and specifies the guitar, and contracts it out to one of these southeast asian factories to get built. Any failures to follow the "proper" philosophy of building guitars should be attributable to the designer, not the manufacturer. It's like blaming Hon Hai because you don't like something about the iPhone. That's on Apple. They just build it as they're told. And that's the reality - these guitars are specified and designed from the ground up to hit a price point. There's no intention for these guitars to match a vintage Martin. They're built to make sound and be cheap. People like to argue about the superiority of one nation versus the other...MIJ, MIA, European, whatever. It's not the country of origin. It's about who is building the guitar and what they decide the guitar is going to represent. No nationality has an inherent ability to build guitars, so anybody in any country who puts their mind to building a guitar with good materials and proper allocation of time to details (fretwork etc) will produce a good guitar. But the reality is the bulk of guitars coming out of certain countries are designed to be pumped out, not made with care.

 

 

That can be true in most cases. But some of the bigger companies do own and operate their own factories.

 

I agree somewhat with what you said in the rest of your post. But not completely. Yes overall quality is a factor of company policy more than anything else. But there are many things on guitar that from what I understand, are very difficult to master. Like doing a Dove tail neck joint. It requires a lot of hand work by an experienced luthier. Bolt on necks allow for less skilled labor to do the same job. Carving bracing to match the fundamentals of the top is time consuming, and requires a lot of training. Cheaper acoustics will use pre cut braces and not pay attention to matching them to their tops. These things come with experience that I believe is found mainly in American and Japanese manufacturers.

 

Now..there are reasons for that. I'm not saying places like China Indo and Vietnam couldn't do that. Only that the luthier tradition doesn't really exist in those countries in the same way. Mostly because of what you and grantus said...price point. So if companies wanted high end acoustics to be built in those places, it would require significant training from proper luthiers, and the creation OF luthiers in said countries.

[Presc]

 

That can be true in most cases. But some of the bigger companies do own and operate their own factories. I agree somewhat with what you said in the rest of your post. But not completely. Yes overall quality is a factor of company policy more than anything else. But there are many things on guitar that from what I understand, are very difficult to master. Like doing a Dove tail neck joint. It requires a lot of hand work by an experienced luthier. Bolt on necks allow for less skilled labor to do the same job. Carving bracing to match the fundamentals of the top is time consuming, and requires a lot of training. Cheaper acoustics will use pre cut braces and not pay attention to matching them to their tops. These things come with experience that I believe is found mainly in American and Japanese manufacturers. Now..there are reasons for that. I'm not saying places like China Indo and Vietnam couldn't do that. Only that the luthier tradition doesn't really exist in those countries in the same way. Mostly because of what you and grantus said...price point. So if companies wanted high end acoustics to be built in those places, it would require significant training from proper luthiers.

 

 

That's a very valid point...I'll agree with all of that. I suppose you can say, just like in certain parts of the world there are "hubs" (Wall Street for finance, Silicon Valley for tech, Switzerland for watches, etc) with a great concentration of professionals skilled in a certain occupation, there are parts of the world that have an embedded culture of guitar making. And that shows up in the instruments they produce.

[grunge782]

So anybody actually play the higher end Waldens to know if this guy is full of it or not?

[Jkater]

 

So anybody actually play the higher end Waldens to know if this guy is full of it or not?

 

 

How would trying a high end Walden change anything to how full of it this guy is? For one thing, if the highest end, best made Walden was half as good as a $15,000 custom shop Yamaha acoustic, they wouldn't be the obscure brand that they are. I know acoustics. It's my world and believe me, Walden guitars aren't making any wave to speak of.

[honeyiscool]

I'll tell you one thing, though. I saw the video tour of Yamaha making guitars in China. I've also seen the video tour of Taylor making guitars in America. Taylor had far more machines than Yamaha did (Yamaha did a lot more things by hand), but neither company really had many people with what looked like elite instrument making skills. For the most part, it seemed like one person knew how to do one thing really well, like gluing bracings or curving sides or whatever. Nobody did more than one thing on any guitar, and I'm sure the same is true at most companies, minus a few high-end, low-volume manufacturers or small luthier shops, and honestly. So what magic is in there in what Taylor can do? They shifted some manufacturing to Mexico for their lower end guitars. They still sound and look just like Taylors to me, whatever they're making down in Mexico.

 

Taylor charges many times what Yamaha charges for their guitars. I think it's justified because the end product justifies the price, but I doubt there's a skill difference involved between the workers. My friend has a $150 Yamaha that I cleaned and strung up yesterday with Elixirs. Sounds simply wonderful.

 

And that doesn't even apply to solid body electric guitars, which are essentially large slabs of wood that can be easily cut with CNCs, which work the same no matter which country they're currently operating in.

[Danhedonia]

eth

[Pine Apple Slim]

Some of the worst thought out bull{censored} I've read in a while.

[Jkater]

 

Taylor charges many times what Yamaha charges for their guitars . I think it's justified because the end product justifies the price, but I doubt there's a skill difference involved between the workers. My friend has a $150 Yamaha that I cleaned and strung up yesterday with Elixirs. Sounds simply wonderful.

 

 

I won't hold it against you but you have the wide spread sentiment that Yamaha acoustics are good cheap guitars that don't compare to the like of taylors or martins. Do you know how much an L-86 cost before the options come in? $12,000. They don't bother to offer them to the american market.

 

 

 

The Chinese yamaha factory makes the affordable ones (less than $2,000) for the huge world market with good efficiency but it's very different from the smallish Japanese shop which is making the ones no one here have a chance to see and which cost an arm and a leg. I have the catalogue of their options and the sky is the limit as far as options goes (carved neck heels, inlaid fretboards and pickguards, highest grade tonewood, etc. etc.). the following vids show no special options, just the process of building the Japanese acoustics. I have visited small luthiers' shop and also the Larriv

[Kevman]

Given that its been many decades since Japanese companies began copying American designs I think it may be that whatever shortcuts were initially taken have been corrected or another method devised to achieve a high level of manufacturing quality. It would be narrow minded to think only US manufacturing could sustain a high level. Same holds true for any country of origin. Methods of construction have everything to do do with hitting a desired price point. As countries become more adept their product finds itself on higher price points.

[docjeffrey]

I would assume that everyone who has ever played guitar is familiar with the exceptional quality of Japanese guitars. Maybe I read too much into this article. I never said I agreed with the author, by the way; however, I don't think that everything he says is necessarily incorrect. His job is to promote Walden's new Chinese line, obviously. Most interviewees in these publications do have a horse in the race, even people like Joe Perry and Joe Bonamassa have their own signature gear to promote.

 

The Japanese did begin by making cheap knock offs, but eventually they started to buy up all of the vintage Martins, Gibsons and Fenders they could get their hands on and tear them apart to see how they were made. I don't necessarily see most Chinese, Vietnamese and Indonesian makers going to those lengths--they do, in fact, use methods developed by the Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, etc. to build guitars to a price point, which is NOT necessarily a bad thing. However, I have owned a couple of Chinese guitars, including a Hofner Beatle Bass which I still have, that fits with the author's paradigm. I won't go into the construction details, but they are indicative of far eastern construction norms and you won't find them on the German versions. The results are disgustingly sloppy.

 

I think that the author purposely overlooks Blueridge, which makes outstanding guitars based on Martin's best designs. Eastman and Epiphone are two other companies that I have a lot of respect for, and I'm certain that there are others.

 

But the vast majority of far eastern guitars suffer from the same deficiencies--thick finishes, low grade plastic and metal parts that are structurally unstable, poor attention to detail under the hood, low grade electronic and mechanical parts and excessively heavy woods. But most of us on this board can recognize these things and avoid them. We seek out the good stuff that comes from China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc., and make no mistake, they are out there.

 

Still, every single guitar that I own or have owned originating from one of these countries has at least one annoying issue. My Indonesian ESP bass weighs 11.5 pounds. The plastic parts on my Hofner have dried up, cracked and the finish has flaked off--I've had to remove the pickguard and superglue the control plate so it doesn't cut my hand. The low grade metal bridge on my Dano has deformed under the tension of the strings. Even my Korean Brian May guitar refuses to stay in tune due to the sloppy tolerances in the tremolo mechanism made by Il Sung. The bolt that holds the armrest on my Chinese made Traveler guitar broke in two while I was playing the guitar. The screws that hold the Kahler style trem in place on a Korean Epi SG that I have stripped making the guitar unplayable. A friend just dropped off his Chinese Ibanez bass for me to look at. The electronics have quit working completely (I haven't had a chance to investigate yet), and the bass is only a couple of years old.

 

I could keep going on for a long time, and I haven't even gotten to the amps that I own or have owned from China, etc. By comparison, my Japanese, Spanish, German, Mexican, and US made guitars have had very few problems--the majority of them have been perfect from day one. So, I sort of understand what the author is talking about when he points out the compromises that have been passed down the line in terms of far eastern manufacturing. I also understand that there are some damned fine instruments coming out of these countries, so it's not an absolute phenomenon as the author seems to be implying.

 

By the way, did anyone catch Top Gear (UK) awhile back when they were reviewing the first Chinese cars that are being developed for export? It's pretty much the same story. They look perfectly competent and serviceable on the surface, but it doesn't take much digging before the construction compromises begin to appear. They will get better, just like Honda and Hyundai.

 

I'm going to post this--hopefully it will be legible:

 

[Folky_Grunge]

 

noun 1. Sociology . the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture. 2. a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.

 

 

Pretty much this, along with some BS thrown in so he can market his guitars (everything made in Asia except my stuff sucks).

 

It bugs me when people think that because a guitar is made in an Asian country (or really anywhere not in the US) that it has to be inferior. There's no reason to think that, it's not like China inherently makes things worse than the US does. There's a difference between something made to be cheap and something made to be good, and if you compare the two, there's obviously going to be a huge difference. That's what puts foreign guitars at a disadvantage, as more of them are made at lower price points than US made guitars. They're not supposed to be comparable, just look at Epiphone and Gibson: Epiphone makes cheaper guitars than Gibson because that's what they're supposed to be; when they actually put effort into expensive guitars (like the Elitist and Masterbilt lines), what comes out is a lot closer to stuff made in the US.

 

I also think his claim is demonstrably wrong. A lot of guitars that makers like Yamaha, Ibanez, and Takamine were putting out in the '70s were actually very nice - sometimes better than their American made counterparts. Even today a lot of stuff that's actually made to be good that comes from Asia can compete with US-made guitars favorably. I have a Chinese-made Guild that I prefer to several more expensive Martins, many here feel Edwards (and a few other Japanese companies) make nicer, more consistent, Les Pauls than Gibson, Japanese Fenders are highly regarded (I certainly like mine), and the list can go on from there.

[Danhedonia]

Doc, I respect your opinions on this matter, but just think you're out of date - the examples you cite above, almost by necessity if one imputes the history necessary to see these problems, means that your experience with Asian import guitars is both incomplete and dated.

 

Being honest, how familiar are you with Asian guitars from the last 3 years? I have had an incredible exposure to an awful lot of gear, and I find myself completely agreeing to everything you say but wanting to tack the phrase "up until about 2007" on to each statement.

 

I visited recently with a luthier in Santa Fe (a pricy-hippie town if one EVER existed) and he was remarking on just how good Chinese guitars have gotten in the past couple of years. I don't feel comfortable naming brands because I think he'd find it embarrassing, but he is also an authorized dealer for some very high-end US-built guitars, and he said "that used to be a much easier sale, because the differences were so great. Now, it's a lot harder, especially for hobbyists. Pro musicians can justify the differences, but the gap is really narrowing." He volunteered this without any prompting, as I was eyeing something with my customary GAS and about vomited in my mouth when told it was $2,800. It was a [fancy builder name here] Strat, played through an AC-30. He and I were both fairly surprised when we lifted the pickguard on a VM JM and saw a neat, clean, well-done cavity with carefully soldered connections.

 

I also used to manage an artist who - to be kind - is almost impossibly snobby about gear. Example: he won't even "waste his time" with amps that are not handwired. He went through a period of reduced budget, and asked me about some of the Rondo guitars, and I pointed him at some less-expensive things I thought he might enjoy (like MP Fenders, CV Squiers, some of the Schechters, some Yamahas) and he ... just balked. Said "I ... just can't do it. I remember trying to play a Squier like 10 years ago and it was awful."

 

And that's really my point: as Asian cars made strides over time, so, too, have Asian guitars. My personal opinion is that we are in a time of transition from the past of bad Asian imports, to a time of some pretty damn good guitars coming out of Asia.

 

Two final thoughts.

* My dad the theoretical physicist (and insane snob of ALL gear that is engineered) was really into BMW's, and bought some of the first ones to be imported back in the 60's. At the time, those were considered "cheap alternatives" to things like Mustangs. Times change.

* Dude in the interview sounds painfully uninformed and ethnocentric (see: post above).

[Axegrinder009]

I

[Pine Apple Slim]

My buddys Eastman 20OM eats HD28s for breakfast.

[mistersully]

i don't know if words can express how over the whole "country of manufacture" thing i am

[DaleH]

all I know for sure is the MII VM squier I just got really changed my views.

[grunge782]

 

How would trying a high end Walden change anything to how full of it this guy is? For one thing, if the highest end, best made Walden was half as good as a $15,000 custom shop Yamaha acoustic, they wouldn't be the obscure brand that they are. I know acoustics. It's my world and believe me, Walden guitars aren't making any wave to speak of.

 

 

Well I just want to know if a higher end Walden can actually compete with 1000-2000 dollar Martins and Taylors. Basically the guy is stating in that snippet that his guitars are built on par with other companies and aren't your "standard" Chinese guitar.

[Pine Apple Slim]

 

Well I just want to know if a higher end Walden can actually compete with 1000-2000 dollar Martins and Taylors. Basically the guy is stating in that snippet that his guitars are built on par with other companies and aren't your "standard" Chinese guitar.

 

 

The only Waldens I've ever seen cost $200-$500 and compete on par with every other $200-$500 guitar.

[grunge782]

The only Waldens I've ever seen cost $200-$500 and compete on par with every other $200-$500 guitar.

 

http://www.waldenguitars.com/D2040.html

 

[harold heckuba]

Walden are nice, I used to have one. A lot of guitar for the money. That other stuff the owner is saying

I am not sure if I agree with.