Playing fast runs cleanly

[AlexMC]

I'm working on SRV's cover of Little Wing, and I'm completely flummoxed by a couple of insanely quick descending runs where he squeezes ~64 notes into the space of two bars (the first playing open string licks over Bm7-Bbm7-Am7-C at 3:50; the second over G-F-C-D at 4:50).

 

No matter how much I slow the track down,work on a light touch etc, I just can't cram all the notes in with any sense of phrasing. Any advice, please? I really want to nail that song...

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Which version are you referring to? I'm listening to both the studio one and the one from El Mocambo, and neither feature fast runs at those at 3:50 or 4:50.

[Presc]

 

Which version are you referring to? I'm listening to both the studio one and the one from El Mocambo, and neither feature fast runs at those at 3:50 or 4:50.

 

 

Yeah, I just pulled up the studio version, and at 3:50 he's doing those double stops, at 4:50 he's doing what sounds like some Wes style octaves

[wagdog]

Step 1: Be SRV.

 

Failing that, practice, a lot, then some more, and then some more, then more and then practice some more.

 

He was a special player.

[GreatDane]

 

I'm working on SRV's cover of Little Wing, and I'm completely flummoxed by a couple of insanely quick descending runs where he squeezes ~64 notes into the space of two bars (the first playing open string licks over Bm7-Bbm7-Am7-C at 3:50; the second over G-F-C-D at 4:50). No matter how much I slow the track down,work on a light touch etc, I just can't cram all the notes in with any sense of phrasing. Any advice, please? I really want to nail that song...

 

 

not sure which passage you're referring to, but here's my advice from personal experience:

 

learn to play the part as cleanly as you can and with proper phrasing, but very slowly (painfully slow, even). then play that same part 20,000 times. get that part burned into your muscle memory and focus on holding to the phrasing, even at a slow speed. bring your speed up gradually by playing to a metronome and raising the speed as you get completely comfortable. eventually you'll get up to proper speed. it takes a lot of practice and discipline, IMO.

[Presc]

 

Step 1: Be SRV. Failing that, practice, a lot, then some more, and then some more, then more and then practice some more. Or give up? He was a special player.

 

 

He certainly was, but that shouldn't stop anyone from taking a crack at even his toughest licks...you may never play it with same conviction and power that he did, but it's certain a good learning experience.

 

 

learn to play the part as cleanly as you can and with proper phrasing, but very slowly (painfully slow, even). then play that same part 20,000 times. get that part burned into your muscle memory and focus on holding to the phrasing, even at a slow speed. bring your speed up gradually by playing to a metronome and raising the speed as you get completely comfortable. eventually you'll get up to proper speed. it takes a lot of practice and discipline, IMO.

 

 

Ultimately, that's it. It's difficult and frustrating but that's how you get better. I'm guessing the OP is referring to a couple parts where (to my ears at least) it sounds like he's actually doing some 2-3 string sweeps. Something like that is almost harder to pull off in slow-mo than full speed...be careful not to dial it down TOO much.

[wagdog]

 

He certainly was, but that shouldn't stop anyone from taking a crack at even his toughest licks...you may never play it with same conviction and power that he did, but it's certain a good learning experience..

 

 

You're right, of course, I meant that jokingly, but it doesn't come across online - my apologies. I'm with you fully, it's a great learning experience - and you can make it your own, taking what he plays and switching it up into something else.

 

I've edited my post.

[Canadian Jeff]

I'd honestly spend more time on learning the technique and scales that passage was crafted from than just trying to memorize what you hear on the recording.

[AlexMC]

Oops, the times I quoted were from the slowed down version I was using in Audacity... should be 3:35 and 4:27.

[GreatDane]

 

I'd honestly spend more time on learning the technique and scales that passage was crafted from than just trying to memorize what you hear on the recording.

 

 

to each, his/her own.

 

for me, it generally starts with hearing something in a song that i really want to learn, working hard to get it down, and then using that as a gateway into understanding the technique/phrasing/scale/pattern/whatever that i'll eventually personalize and build into my evolving musical vocabulary. IMO, it's more fun and motivating to start from a musical reference point that's familiar (like the SRV passage that is currently challenging AlexMC) than it is focusing strictly on the "academic" underpinnings (as you seem to be suggesting). both ways probably get you to the same place eventually, but the first way seems a lot more engaging (which would increase my desire to learn and accelerate my progress).

[Presc]

to each, his/her own. for me, it generally starts with hearing something in a song that i really want to learn, working hard to get it down, and then using that as a gateway into understanding the technique/phrasing/scale/pattern/whatever that i'll eventually personalize and build into my evolving musical vocabulary. IMO, it's more fun and motivating to start from a musical reference point that's familiar (like the SRV passage that is currently challenging AlexMC) than it is focusing strictly on the "academic" underpinnings (as you seem to be suggesting). both ways probably get you to the same place eventually, but the first way seems a lot more engaging (which would increase my desire to learn and accelerate my progress).

 

I agree - I always like to learn things in a purely mechanical way first, and then as I can begin to play them comfortably, start thinking about how the notes fit with the underlying chords and song, and how I could fit that lick or a variation of it into my own toolbox of licks/vocabulary

 

Everyone has their own approach, but I tend to dislike thinking in scales. My entire goal is to internalize things so I'm NOT thinking and the music flows. But I consider myself a very improvisational player and on the guitar my training isn't exactly formal. For me, learning the underlying theory and shapes are a way of teaching my ear to hear new things.

 

But I'm going off topic...so what are the actual times of the parts you're working on?

[jrockbridge]

I always slow down licks. I keep repeating them over and over at slow speed so that there is no possible way to make a mistake. Otherwise, if you speed them up before you're ready, you'll find you actually develop finger memory for the mistakes. Then, it's even harder to unlearn the mistakes.

 

Once you've learned the part perfectly slow, then start to increase the speed. But, don't expect to get up to full speed right away. Gradually increase the speed each time you play the part. Patience and repetition will eventually get you there.

 

Finally, if you find that you cannot play a part correctly no matter how much you practice, simplify the part. It's better to play a simpler version of a phrase that's maybe missing a few notes than to play all the notes badly. Ultimately, you'll know you fell short by a few phrases or notes but most people in the audience will never notice. As long as you do the best you can, there's no shame in the final result.

[onelife]

as mentioned a few times already - the secret to playing something fast is to first play it slowly

 

play slow enough that you can play the piece accurately and keep practicing it and speed it up gradually (but not beyond the speed where you can still play accurately)

[guitarman3001]

I don't know...for me when I'm trying to learn a fast lick or passage, I first play it as slowly as I need to in order to get the actual notes down and know what it is that I'm going to be playing but once I have that figured out, I go at it full speed, or as close to full speed as i can manage. I find that some licks that are supposed to be fast are much easier to play fast than they are to play slow and spending the time it would take to be able to play it slow cleanly is just a waste of time if right off the bat I can play it at speed cleanly, even though if I played it slow it would be sloppy.

 

Does this make any sense? I'm sure I can't be the only one who learns some fast licks like this.

[DaleH]

SRV didn't play all his notes in time, he just had a knack for coming out on time.

[Jkater]

 

not sure which passage you're referring to, but here's my advice from personal experience: learn to play the part as cleanly as you can and with proper phrasing, but very slowly (painfully slow, even). then play that same part 20,000 times. get that part burned into your muscle memory and focus on holding to the phrasing, even at a slow speed. bring your speed up gradually by playing to a metronome and raising the speed as you get completely comfortable. eventually you'll get up to proper speed. it takes a lot of practice and discipline, IMO.

 

 

Fantastic advice and I will only add that at that point when you have the mechanical aspect down, start being a little "loose" for lack of a better word, sort of relaxed but with an intent where tension is controled and creative. (even more obscure description, I know)

[Yer Blues]

OP, I'm having the same issue with Flying High Again. There is an ascending lick Rhoads plays in there that I have been working on/off for probably a month and I still can't play it up to speed. There's no extreme finger stretching and it is straight out of the F minor scale.... nothing too difficult. It's just awkward for me to finger.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------14h15-14h15p-

--------------------------------14-16---------------

--------------------14----16-14---------------------

--------14----16-14----16---------------------------

17--14----17----------------------------------------

 

 

 

I've sat on it for about 5-6 days, but will probably start working on it again today.

[Mo' Cowbell]

 

SRV didn't play all his notes in time, he just had a knack for coming out on time.

 

 

I've been working on his take of "Mary Had a Little Lamb". This hits the nail on the head. Seems like what he played in his head and with his hands within a phrase were two different things, but would reconcile with each other at the right points. I've heard that blues artists refer to it as playing in "free time" within a song. I don't think it can work unless the rest of the band is spot on.

[gdsmithtx]

 

I've been working on his take of "Mary Had a Little Lamb". This hits the nail on the head. Seems like what he played in his head and with his hands within a phrase were two different things, but would reconcile with each other at the right points. I've heard that blues artists refer to it as playing in "free time" within a song. I don't think it can work unless the rest of the band is spot on.

 

 

This is true. Because of the incredible dominance of SRV, I don't think Double Trouble gets enough credit. Too many folks seem to think of them as just Stevie's spear carriers, when in fact they were an extremely integral part of the whole SRV thing. They were expert at following where he led -- and sometimes he led them very far afield with little in the way of cues -- while staying very much in the pockets and, what's more important, staying out of his way. I especially loved it when they added Reese Wynans on organ; he added an additional element of depth to the band. Any strong guitarist/bandleader would kill for a backing band that good.

[LowYaw]

I'm working on SRV's cover of Little Wing, and I'm completely flummoxed by a couple of insanely quick descending runs where he squeezes ~64 notes into the space of two bars (the first playing open string licks over Bm7-Bbm7-Am7-C at 3:50; the second over G-F-C-D at 4:50). No matter how much I slow the track down,work on a light touch etc, I just can't cram all the notes in with any sense of phrasing. Any advice, please? I really want to nail that song...

 

there's this thing that is called Speed Trainer. You find a tempo, at which you play given passage cleanly, and practice at that speed. Then, Speed Trainer begins to add like 1 or 2 bpms each time it starts the loop over. Works wonders, really. It's a feature in Guitar Pro, you can probably look up some kind of free software, too, taht will speed up tempo after certain number of bars. You can achieve the same effect by adding 'manually", so to speak, =1 bpm every couple of times you play the passage to a metronome

 

Edit: I guess I should add also, that it is extremely important to start slow and play the lick correctly with every repetition. I have a violinist friend, who's got classic traing and all that - he's a conservatory graduate - who used to say, when you learn a fast run, and while playing it over and over you once get distracted, and play it wrong, or fluff it some other way, it renders a lot of previous effort useless. So start slowly and really make a point in hiting your notes correctly ALL THE TIME, on time and the way they were supposed to be arranged

[Urban Ghandi]

Here's a video of someone playing it note for note...perhaps seeing someone play it will help!

 

 

[AlexMC]

I agree - I always like to learn things in a purely mechanical way first, and then as I can begin to play them comfortably, start thinking about how the notes fit with the underlying chords and song, and how I could fit that lick or a variation of it into my own toolbox of licks/vocabulary Everyone has their own approach, but I tend to dislike thinking in scales. My entire goal is to internalize things so I'm NOT thinking and the music flows. But I consider myself a very improvisational player and on the guitar my training isn't exactly formal. For me, learning the underlying theory and shapes are a way of teaching my ear to hear new things. But I'm going off topic...so what are the actual times of the parts you're working on?

 

I'd just added that info: 3:35 and 4:27.

[mosiddiqi]

I just had a listen to the first bit you mentioned and the main thing I think you need to do is BE CONFIDENT about landing strongly on the beat after the fast flurries..it's not really that fast but sounds rhythmically displaced and "rushed" which gives it momentum. It's obviously good to learn it really slow as others have said, but you're going to have to just attack the hell out it!. Go for it!

[onelife]

 

OP, I'm having the same issue with Flying High Again. There is an ascending lick Rhoads plays in there that I have been working on/off for probably a month and I still can't play it up to speed. There's no extreme finger stretching and it is straight out of the F minor scale.... nothing too difficult. It's just awkward for me to finger. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------14h15-14h15p- --------------------------------14-16--------------- --------------------14----16-14--------------------- --------14----16-14----16--------------------------- 17--14----17---------------------------------------- I've sat on it for about 5-6 days, but will probably start working on it again today.

 

 

May I suggest that the particular fingering presented in the TAB may not work for you?

 

Maybe if you try to find some of the notes in different positions, you will find a fingering that is more natural and comfortable for you to play.

[jrockbridge]

 

May I suggest that the particular fingering presented in the TAB may not work for you? Maybe if you try to find some of the notes in different positions, you will find a fingering that is more natural and comfortable for you to play.

 

 

That's an excellent point and a great suggestion. I find that happens quite a bit with TAB. I'll sometimes find it's much easier for me to play a phrase in a different position than is presented in the TAB. In some cases, I'm convinced the person who created the TAB may have gotten the notes correct but was wrong about the position anyway. I defer to the KISS principle whenever possible. As long as it flows and sounds correct, I favor the easiest option for playing the notes.