Electric Guitars: Rules and Discussion

[Verence]

I just read like, the last 10 pages of this thread for the first time. And brother, does my brain hurt.

Stop debating and playing devil's advocate just so you can excercise your huge brain, Roy. Get a rubix cube or somethin'.

[DRPool]

Roy, you've turned this into a debate simply for the purposes of debate.

You claim you have no issue but continue to defend some mystical position of tolerance. We have several very active forumites in HCEG that clearly state their anti Christian position in their user name. Why aren't you suggesting that Book of Lies77 be more considerate of his choices. By quick count there are 6 forumites that use the term 666 as the prefix to their user name. Used666 is a regular poster and contributor as well. No telling how many satanic links or references are made in these and other signatures.

Do I agree with them, no way. Do I think something official needs to be done about it, hardly. If one of those folks was asked to be a mod, that's fine with me. It's a guitar forum crap's sake.

So what do we do? Who is intolerant? Intolerance is a choice, you should respect that and move on, the rest of us in this silly debate seemed to have done so.

[Roy]

Putting any view that disagrees with someone elses views can probably be seen as offensive to the person holding the opposing viewpoint

 

[Roy]

I just read like, the last 10 pages of this thread for the first time. And brother, does my brain hurt. Stop debating and playing devil's advocate just so you can excercise your huge brain, Roy. Get a rubix cube or somethin'.

well, the purpose of this debate was not to simply give the old brain a workout, but I do believe the debate IS over. I asked a question, it has been answered, debate over.

[Roy]

So what do we do? Who is intolerant? Intolerance is a choice, you should respect that and move on, the rest of us in this silly debate seemed to have done so.

 

 

Sorry, for the life of me I cannot respect intolerance, but I have moved on. As I've said, I believe the debate to be over and now I'm only responding to posts directed at me.

[UllyssesSB]

SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!!1

[Roy]

Ah {censored} it. I exercise the right to change my mind. This debate is not over without a summary.

Is it okay to post your religious beliefs or anti-religious beliefs in your sig? Not exactly a thread so not really against the rules but doesn't it risk offending someone who has different beliefs?

The answer I got to both these questions was Yes. Both Mazi and Frets have indicated that it is okay to post religious beliefs on this guitar forum. The reason I included anti-religious beliefs was because it is 2 sides of the same coin. As I've said before, being against religion is also a religious viewpoint. I never said I had an anti-religious viewpoint but it certainly was perceived as such. This perception offended many. That, coupled with Frets' own statement, gave me the answer to the second question. One of Frets' justifications for posting his beliefs is that he doesn't see how it could possibly offend anyone. This debate has made it obvious that opposing religious viewpoints (even if it's only a perceived viewpoint) does indeed offend people.

We all have different values that color the way we see things. Some value their religion uber alles. I value ethics so I think a Yes answer to the second question would automatically make the answer to the first question, No. It is not okay to post religious beliefs since it does risk offending others. I think compassion and concern for others supersedes the right to promote one's own religion with each and every post. This is perceived as religious intolerance. Not so. As I've said before, I believe every man's beliefs to be as valid as the next guy's. Everyone is free to practice whatever religion they see fit. Hell, you can go dance naked around a kettle of goat's head soup if you want to. I could give a rat's ass. I just don't think it is necessary to constantly voice one's beliefs in light of the severe consequences, that of offending others with an opposing belief.

Imagine a kid who has an Islamic faith, a fundamentally different religious belief than the Christian faith. He buys a strat and wants to learn more about electric guitars so he searches the internet. His search lands him here. What he finds is that one of the leaders of the community promoting Christianity with every post. I have to think that it would be very intimidating and probably scare him away. I recall when Warriorpoet posted a guitar that his religious college had just received. When a few people with opposing beliefs found out about the college they started to rip on his faith (I bailed on the thread as soon as it started getting ugly) and intimidated him right off the forum. That was a sad day indeed and I'm glad he decided to return. I value everyone's viewpoint, even that kid with the strat. Constantly affirming a religious belief shows a lack of concern for the consequences. There is an appropriate time and place to voice religious views and this forum is not it.

A schoolyard bully is beating up on some kid. A crowd gathers. Nobody in the crowd tries to stop the bullying because they know if they do, they too will get the {censored} kicked out of them. Some even cheer the bully on to gain acceptance in the community. It's unethical. The ethical thing to do would be to try and defend the kid and stop the bullying. Yes, it is likely that doing so will get you beaten up also, but if one is to be ethical, what choice do you have? There are several capacities that one must possess in order to behave ethically, one of them is courage. I've clarified all misunderstandings, asked a few more questions and made several ethical points during this discussion. None of the questions in my responses were answered. None of the points I made were directly addressed. Instead, the issues I raised were dodged and I was accused of being religiously intolerant, even after I had explained and clarified my thoughts on the matter. I believe my arguments to be logical and motivated by ethics, yet not one person has agreed with anything I've said. This thread sat dormant for a day now. It would appear that people just want this issue to go away so they can continue promote their beliefs and ignore the consequences.

Shame on you all.

[Cletus Spuckle]

I don't understand why you think religious beliefs are offensive.

[Verence]

Frets' link isn't intrusive in the least. To actually be exposed to ANYTHING *gasp* Christian you'd have to actually click on the link. If some easily offendable dumbass clicks on his link and gets offended it's his own damn fault for clicking.

Would I be "uncomfortable" or "intimidated" posting on this board if every single person on it was Muslim, and had Muslim links in their sigs? NO. Neither would anyone else with common sense and even the slightest security in their own religious beliefs and faith therin.

IF someone gets offended we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, though I doubt we ever will. Until then, don't worry, be happy, etc.

[Roy]

I don't understand why you think religious beliefs are offensive.

 

 

I don't understand why you think that I think religious beliefs are offensive. I've made it abundantly clear that they are not.

[Verence]

I don't understand why you think that I think religious beliefs are offensive. I've made it abundantly clear that they are not.

 

 

Maybe if you paraphrased your thought in a sentence rather than several paragraphs.

 

Hard to do when you have a lot to say, I know, but still...

[Roy]

IF someone gets offended we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, though I doubt we ever will. Until then, don't worry, be happy, etc.

How would you know? Remember that Islamic kid with the strat? I don't see him anywhere here. Maybe he felt intimidated and split without registering any formal complaint. The mere possibility that this could happen is sufficient cause for concern. I think you need to worry about offending people before you offend them, not just behave any way you feel like and say sorry later.

[Verence]

People who get offended easily will invariably be offended. That is their responsibility, not the responsibility of rest of the world.

[Roy]

People who get offended easily will invariably be offended. That is their responsibility, not the responsibility of rest of the world.

 

 

A very good point.

 

I can only respond with, religious beliefs are often very deep so I think great care should be given to respect these beliefs and I question if it's really necessary to use this forum as a forum for religious beliefs at all. It is every man's responsibility to be considerate of others.

[Verence]

Necessary? No, of course not. But there's no reason to disallow such things either.

No one in question is using this forum as a forum for religious belief, so the point is moot, isn't it?

[Roy]

Necessary? No, of course not. But there's no reason to disallow such things either. No one in question is using this forum as a forum for religious belief, so the point is moot, isn't it?

 

 

Verence, I think you just became my favorite forumite. You debate very well and you make no personal attacks. I finally understand why everyone feels it would be religious censorship thanks to your intelligent arguments.

 

I do think Frets is using this forum as a forum for religious beliefs since he makes a religious statement every time he posts and I think it shows poor judgement, however, you're right, to disallow it is probably too severe.

[Verence]

Though I still say that your prime reason for debating matters like this is just so your brain doesn't atrophy.

Good luck keeping your brain fit, I let mine get all out of shape after college, now when I try to use it I smell smoke.

[Roy]

Though I still say that your prime reason for debating matters like this is just so your brain doesn't atrophy. Good luck keeping your brain fit, I let mine get all out of shape after college, now when I try to use it I smell smoke.

Most everyone is far too self centered so I understand why you don't think that there is anyone who could actually be concerned about others and doubt my motives.

[BlackHatHunter]

Bottom line: Brother Frets is a great guy. He would still be a great guy if his religious beliefs were different. It has no impact on anything relevant to this forum. The guy is well-respected, knowledgeable, fair and dedicated. If that's not mod material, then I don't know what is. Now stop wasting his time with this bull{censored} and go play yourself some mean ole blues.

[adlo76]

Most everyone is far too self centered so I understand why you don't think that there is anyone who could actually be concerned about others and doubt my motives.

 

 

Do you mean that you're policing this forum because you're watching out for others?

[Roy]

Bottom line: Brother Frets is a great guy. He would still be a great guy if his religious beliefs were different. It has no impact on anything relevant to this forum. The guy is well-respected, knowledgeable, fair and dedicated. If that's not mod material, then I don't know what is. Now stop wasting his time with this bull{censored} and go play yourself some mean ole blues.

 

 

You're right, it has no impact on anything relevant to this forum but it does have an impact on how some people may feel. He claims that he doesn't understand how religious statements could offend anyone but I think my arguments are perfectly clear and the supporting evidence just as perfectly clear. If he still doesn't understand it than it would have to be because he refuses to understand it so he can continue to promote his religion. I don't see that as fair but I do see it as his right. I don't see ethical behavior as bull{censored}.

 

To achieve truth I try to maintain objectivity and examine issues from all angles. I may not always succeed but I do try. I've played my own devil's advocate before even entering into this debate. There actually is an ethical argument to mine that nobody has yet made. The reason I haven't mentioned it until now is because I didn't think it was applicable in this case. If it was, the argument would have been brain dead obvious and have already been made.

 

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations...."

Matthew 28:19

 

There is one religion that I know of that interprets this passage to mean "spread the word of God with each and every opportunity", that of The Jehovah's Witnesses. I should know, I was one for 6 years (my brother still is after 30 years). The Witnesses tend to have some unique interpretations of the bible that other Christian faiths don't share (like interpreting 'don't drink blood' to mean don't get a blood transfusion, that's how my sister died). To disallow the preaching of religion on this forum would be in essence to deny them the right to practice their religious beliefs and would therefore be unethical. It would be unfair to allow one religion to preach here and disallow others simply because they interpret the above bible passage differently.

 

As I've already stated, I think constantly making religious statements shows a lack of concern for those that may disagree and unless you're a Witness, is unnecessary and inappropriate on a guitar forum. However, even though I don't think the argument is applicable in this case I respect Frets right to do so. I just don't respect the ethics.

[DRPool]

There is one religion that I know of that interprets this passage to mean "spread the word of God with each and every opportunity", that of The Jehovah's Witnesses. I should know, I was one for 6 years (my brother still is after 30 years).

Enough said, knowing this about your background requires no more explanation about you and your beliefs.

[Roy]

Enough said, knowing this about your background requires no more explanation about you and your beliefs.

 

Sorry Doc, not quite.

 

While I'm glad you no longer think that I'm some chicken killing Satanist, I've always thought that my personal religious beliefs were entirely irrelevant. This was a debate as to the ethics of posting religious beliefs on this guitar forum. If you must know, my concern was for those of Islamic faith. I confess, I don't know much about it but I do see what is happening in the world. I fail to understand why we can't all just live in harmony but I think it takes a bit of effort on everyone's part to be more considerate of each others faith and not provoke any ill will by constantly voicing one's own personal beliefs. I know that there are members with 666 in their names but I don't think it's ethical to point at others and cry "Well Billy's doing it, why can't I?" and I think a mod should be a little more responsible.

 

It has been my experience that once someone gets an idea in their head, you can't pry it loose with a jack hammer. It doesn't matter what arguments are presented, Frets will do what he wants. However, just as I think it's inappropriate to use this forum to promote one's own religious beliefs, I think it's also inappropriate to promote one's own ethical beliefs also. There's really nothing much else I can say anyway, it would be just as futile. Since we are all in agreement that Frets has the right to do as he sees fit.... enough said.

[adlo76]

I walk proud and express who I am at all times with all the honesty I can muster and wish everyone the same freedoms.

[tumbleweeed]

ne'er mind