Members chris-dax Posted November 19, 2007 Members Share Posted November 19, 2007 Let's break it down.... Since the topic can be kind of confusing, I'm gonna try to explain it in a way that normal people can understand.... - What is a tri-tone..? The tri-tone of any note is that note which is 3 full tones away from the starting or original note. For the note G, the tri-tone is Db (aka C#) as follows: 3 whole tones up from G = 1 A, 2 B, 3 C# 3 whole tones down from G = 1 F, 2 Eb, 3 Db - Every dominant 7 chord contains 2 notes that are a tri-tone apart. These are the 3rd and 7th degrees of the chord. G7 is spelled G, B, D, F. The B and the F are the 3rd and 7th degrees of the chord, and are a tri-tone apart. (B and F in this example.) - Also note that the 3rd and 7th chord tones have a strong tendancy to resolve in a particular direction. Too much detail will distract...just know the 3rd and 7th are strong and active... - The tri-tone substitution is formulated by starting with a dominant 7 chord (let's use G7) :cool:determining the tri-tone of the root (per above, tri-tone of G is Db (or C#) and then building another dominant 7 chord with the tri-tone as the root (in this example that would be a Db7) Db7 is the tri-tone substitute of G7. - So..? Please note that every dom7 chord contains notes (the 3rd and the 7th) that are a tri-tone apart. Also note that the original dom7 chord (G7) and its tri-tone substitution (Db7)share the same 2 notes that are their respective tri-tone notes. We spelled the G7 and discovered that the 3rd and 7th are B and F. When we spell Db7 (Db, F, Ab, Cb)we discover that the 3rd and 7th are F and Cb....which is enharmonically F and B.... The 3rd and the 7th of the original chord (G7) are the same notes as the 7th and the 3rd of it's tri-tone substitute. That's why the 2 chords are often substituted...because they have 2 of the 4 chord tones in common. Also please note that if you flat the 5th of the substitute chord (Db7 - 5th is Ab. Db7b5 has a Abb or G as the 5th) the original chord and its tri-tone substitute then have 3 tones in common. G7 and it's tri-tone substitute Db7 have F, G and B in common.... G7 = G, B, D, F Db7b5 = Db, F, Abb, Cb = Db, F, G, B the 3 common tones are the root, 3rd and 7th of the original and the 3rd, 5th and 7th of the substitution. So that's the basic theory.... The application (in jazz) comes in during the omnipresent ii / V / I progression. For those not familiar, this progression is everywhere....you've heard it a million times, at least. And because it is truly ubiquitous, it's good to have some kind of variation to keep things interesting....ergo the tri-tone substitution. one very prominent feature of the tri-tone substitution in the ii / V / I is the half-step descending bass line.... Key of C, the ii chord is a Dmin7, V is a G7 and I is a C in the tri-tone sub, your substitute a Db7 for G7 and there it is..... ii / V / I = Dmin / Db7 / C.....instant jazzy coolness.... More jazzy coolness comes from how the other notes of the substitue chord resolve.... since this thread is already too long let's just leave it there for now... questions....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bbl Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 questions....? Yeah, why does a great thread like this sink like a stone? Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted November 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2007 I'll help keep it alive. I think you did a great job of explaining a cornerstone of chord substitutions that many people have a hard time grasping. I'd like to hear from people with less theory background as to whether this makes sense. I'd also ask you to provide more examples of how YOU personally would use this concept in a specific chord progression to add complexity to the harmony without destroying the progression and sounding like random note playing. Give a progression, a typical bassline and a bassline utilizing the sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GRANKOR Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 diabolus in musica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 ....More jazzy coolness comes from how the other notes of the substitue chord resolve....since this thread is already too long let's just leave it there for now...questions....? Good info. How does this apply to playing bass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hanky Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 thanks!you deserve a "usefull post of the month (at least) award" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oldtimer Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 "questions....?" Nope! Nicely done.__________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bassius Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 good job... now tell us what happens when we tri tone sub dom13th chords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Nice thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Undead Sycip Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 I too am going to pretend that I understood it by saying Good Job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xdamagexx Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 I too am going to pretend that I understood it by saying Good Job! i second that.. can u rewrite that so i can read it in TABS???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rummy Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 I too am going to pretend that I understood it by saying Good Job! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t3ch Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 I have no idea what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Thanks for the memories da da dada da..... da da dada da.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Captain Fathead Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 That's really helpful. I'm gonna play around with it when I have some free time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris-dax Posted November 20, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 good job... now tell us what happens when we tri tone sub dom13th chords Dood - I just figured this out yesterday.... But I'll give a shot today over lunch and see what I come up with - this time without the great interwebs to tutor me...it will be mano a tri-tone....cage match...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris-dax Posted November 20, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Good info. How does this apply to playing bass? You'll have to ask a real bass player... Actually, this thread came up because I have a new project cooking....it's gonna be a quartet playing a style I think I'll call latin jazz hop.... bass, drums, keys and sax with as many vocals as possible, but the band will have more of an instrumental personality than featuring vocal... we'll do lots of the greatest American music from the 40s on up but drop a latin/hop rhythm section on it.... The way that the Fugees dropped Killing Me Softly and You're Just Too Good To Be True....a jazz/pop/hop fusion that really knocks me out... That's kind of the direction we'll be exploring...add some latin rhythms and compositions and bam...! Anyway, since it's going to be a quartet, we'll have to do a lot of arranging to keep it interesting so that's why I decided to study the tri-tone....I've heard of it and even looked into it somewhat but never really "got" it.... So now at least I understand it from the theory side....next step is how to apply it in context as Kindness and Bassius have said.... Also Kindness said one of the cornerstones of chord substitution....hmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Can you explain how the following chord progressions can be substitutes for each other? 1st....Eb7#9, Ab7(#11), Eb7#9, Bb7#9, Eb7#9 and the substitute chords....Cmin, Fmin, Cmin, Gmin, Cmin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris-dax Posted November 20, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Can you explain how the following chord progressions can be substitutes for each other? 1st....Eb7#9, Ab7(#11), Eb7#9, Bb7#9, Eb7#9and the substitute chords....Cmin, Fmin, Cmin, Gmin, Cmin My alert, uniformed staff is working on it right now... wait - as I was writing them down I realized that the first is just a I, IV, I, V, I in Eb with extensions... the second progresion is the same as the first but in the relative minor key of C minor... major keys and their relative minors are related in this way... Let's use G and E minor as our example... G = Emin/G.... in your example Eb = Cmin/Eb so in your example, all you're doing is removing the major key roots (Eb, Ab, Bb) from the original progression.... the extensions in each progression are there for color/flavor....you have to pay attention to the melody to know when to lay off the extensions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WillPlay4food Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Thanks for the intro to tritone subs. Finally someone (you) described this in a way I can grok. I'm fooling around with Blue Bossa for now, I should try this tritone in that and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 My alert, uniformed staff is working on it right now...wait - as I was writing them down I realized that the first is just a I, IV, I, V, I in Eb with extensions...the second progresion is the same as the first but in the relative minor key of C minor...major keys and their relative minors are related in this way...Let's use G and E minor as our example...G = Emin/G....in your exampleEb = Cmin/Ebso in your example, all you're doing is removing the major key roots (Eb, Ab, Bb) from the original progression....the extensions in each progression are there for color/flavor....you have to pay attention to the melody to know when to lay off the extensions.... Ding Ding Ding!!! The 1st is how Blue Train is written in the jazz Fake Book and the substitutes are how I cleaned it up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Derek5272 Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Yeah, why does a great thread like this sink like a stone? Bump. You've heard people say that nature abhors a vacuum? Well, HCBF abhors knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bassius Posted November 20, 2007 Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 Dood - I just figured this out yesterday.... But I'll give a shot today over lunch and see what I come up with - this time without the great interwebs to tutor me...it will be mano a tri-tone....cage match...!! ROCK! and if your brain hurts....tag me and i'll jump in (when you figure it out IT'S THE {censored}!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris-dax Posted November 20, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2007 ROCK! and if your brain hurts....tag me and i'll jump in (when you figure it out IT'S THE {censored}!!) Yeah, my brain already hurts....at first I thought "trick question" because the subdominant is a maj7, not a dominant 7 and when I started crunching notes I got all kinds chromatics.... then I thought....B does not clown when it comes to the theoryz....so I better keep digging.... I've got a question for you....on a 13 chord, often times the 5th and 9th are omitted....should I be looking at the 5th and 9th in my analysis or not..? Give me a little hint and I'll see what I can come up with.... And I am not afraid to fail in front of the whole interwebs, if it will help even one poor widow or homeless meth addict to become a better bass player... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted November 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2007 And I am not afraid to fail in front of the whole interwebs You're already kicking ass and demonstrating that potential failure should never be a reason to clam up. Failures happen and they teach us as much or more than successes. I don't know the answer to Bassius's question myself and don't have the time/brain power available at the moment to figure it out. So just by trying you are already a step ahead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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