Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 What bnyswonger said. The Bbb is more correct. The advantage is theoretical and notational, for the most part. If it were written as an A natural rather than a Bbb, then the chord would be changed, even though the actual pitches played remain the same. Yup, it would be a raised 4th if it were A natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 20, 2008 Along these lines, I was analyzing a song I wrote a long time ago. It starts off with an E minor, then the E lowers a half step, then it resolves to a D# major. But what was that middle chord? E minor, maj7? Eb augmented? G augmented? It all plays the same on the guitar, but it would affect any other instrumentation I might add to the arrangement. Reasoning that, since diminished intervals resolve inwardly, that augmented intervals resolve outwardly, I looked at the second to third chord transition, and saw that, considered as an Eb augmented, it resolved nicely to the D#. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 78pbass Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 After reading this thread, I feel confused, augmented and diminished...I feel stupid...and contagious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 Along these lines, I was analyzing a song I wrote a long time ago. It starts off with an E minor, then the E lowers a half step, then it resolves to a D# major. So the notes of the second chord are: Eb, G, B? That's a strange one - major 3rd, followed by a flat five..... That's not an Eb flat diminished, nor an Eb Augmented. The notes are the same as a G diminished, but I'm not sure what the bass note is underneath it all. Might need Bassius for this one....If you can, post a thread to Bassius with this question, I'd love to see his analysis of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnyswonger Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 Assuming that the 1/2 step moving note is the root and resolves to D#, I'd think the second chord would be a D#aug. In music sometimes there is more than one correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 20, 2008 So the notes of the second chord are: Eb, G, B? That's a strange one - major 3rd, followed by a flat five..... That's not an Eb flat diminished, nor an Eb Augmented. The notes are the same as a G diminished, but I'm not sure what the bass note is underneath it all. Might need Bassius for this one....If you can, post a thread to Bassius with this question, I'd love to see his analysis of this. Where are you getting a flat five? E to B is a perfect fifth. Eb to B is an augmented fifth. Eb, G, B is an augmented chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 20, 2008 Assuming that the 1/2 step moving note is the root and resolves to D#, I'd think the second chord would be a D#aug. In music sometimes there is more than one correct answer. Actually, I think I changed it all in my head. It's not an Eb augmented, but a B augmented. Or maybe a G augmented...From the E minor, the E goes down to a D#, giving me B, D#, and the G magically musically transforms to an F##, an augmented B chord. Then the B lowers a half step to an A#, for a D# major (D#, F##, A#). Or maybe it's an Eb major (Eb, G, Bb). Anyway, from there, the Eb lowers to a D, and it goes to a G minor chord, then repeats.Sometimes the theory is easier than actually playing something, sometimes it's the other way around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 20, 2008 How do I post a sound file on here? It's a .wma file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 Where are you getting a flat five? E to B is a perfect fifth. Eb to B is an augmented fifth. Eb, G, B is an augmented chord. I did it again - moving in the wrong direction by a half step. Good lord....see what dyslexia can do to a person... You're right of course, raised fifth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hi.flyer Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 b5 in Eb would be Bbb, B? is +5 (augmented). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 b5 in Eb would be Bbb, B? is +5 (augmented). Well yeah, seeing as the whole "lesson" above talked about just that, and Bb is already in the key sig. Good catch though - like I said, I can't believe I moved in the wrong direction mentally twice in a row; I've gotta write this stuff down sometimes or my dyslexia can really make me look more stupid than I really am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 Actually, I think I changed it all in my head. It's not an Eb augmented, but a B augmented. Or maybe a G augmented...From the E minor, the E goes down to a D#, giving me B, D#, and the G magically musically transforms to an F##, an augmented B chord. Then the B lowers a half step to an A#, for a D# major (D#, F##, A#). Or maybe it's an Eb major (Eb, G, Bb). Anyway, from there, the Eb lowers to a D, and it goes to a G minor chord, then repeats.Sometimes the theory is easier than actually playing something, sometimes it's the other way around... What bass note are you playing underneath that second chord? D#/Eb, or B? Just curious... Plus I assume you're in the key of G, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hi.flyer Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 It's not an Eb augmented, but a B augmented. Or maybe a G augmented... It's all three at once. Maybe a certain voicing would be more suitable than others, but all three are just different names for the same enharmonically equivalent chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 20, 2008 Members Share Posted October 20, 2008 It's all three at once. Maybe a certain voicing would be more suitable than others, but all three are just different names for the same enharmonically equivalent chord. Right - but to get closer to it's true tonal function, it helps to know the bass note played underneath. Of course, notational conventions don't always reflect tonal function....but I prefer to think that way when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2008 What bass note are you playing underneath that second chord? D#/Eb, or B?Just curious...Plus I assume you're in the key of G, right? It's never been played other than just me and an acoustic guitar. Key is E minor. Still one sharp, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2008 It's all three at once. Maybe a certain voicing would be more suitable than others, but all three are just different names for the same enharmonically equivalent chord. I'm well aware of that. But, as wades_keys says, the harmonic function within the song structure will determine which chord it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members someotherguy Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 ...Reasoning that, since diminished intervals resolve inwardly, that augmented intervals resolve outwardly... I've basically understood everything in this thread except this description. Anyone care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 So the notes of the second chord are: Eb, G, B? That's a strange one - major 3rd, followed by a flat five..... That's not an Eb flat diminished, nor an Eb Augmented. The notes are the same as a G diminished, but I'm not sure what the bass note is underneath it all. Might need Bassius for this one....If you can, post a thread to Bassius with this question, I'd love to see his analysis of this. Those chords are used in jazz. A7b5 for instance...pretty common actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 The easiest was to remember augmented and diminshed is......... an augmented chord is a major chord with a sharp 5th and a diminished chord is a minor chord with a flat 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 The easiest was to remember augmented and diminshed is......... an augmented chord is a major chord with a sharp 5th and a diminished chord is a minor chord with a flat 5th. I know - what happens to me sometimes is I'll visualize a keyboard with the flat keys in the wrong spot (like between the B and the C note. ) I've got a mild form of dyslexia.... Anyway, I played those 2 chords on my bass last night and recognized that progression fairly immediately. It seems well suited for the harmonic minor scale, and I agree with Isacc that the 2nd chord really seems to function as a V chord.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted October 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2008 I've basically understood everything in this thread except this description. Anyone care to elaborate? Sure. Take a dominant 7 chord, like E7: E, G#, B, D. The G# to D interval is a diminished fifth. Traditionally, the diminished fifth interval resolves inwardly, that it, the G# goes up to an A, and the D goes down to a C#. To complete the resolution, the E generally stays an E, or goes to A if it's in the bass, and the B can go either way, down to an A or up to a C#, or be left out entirely. Guitar chords don't always lend themselves to this kind of traditional voice leading, but that's the way it's most often done with voice, strings, brass, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 Sure.Take a dominant 7 chord, like E7: E, G#, B, D. The G# to D interval is a diminished fifth. Traditionally, the diminished fifth interval resolves inwardly, that it, the G# goes up to an A, and the D goes down to a C#. To complete the resolution, the E generally stays an E, or goes to A if it's in the bass, and the B can go either way, down to an A or up to a C#, or be left out entirely.Guitar chords don't always lend themselves to this kind of traditional voice leading, but that's the way it's most often done with voice, strings, brass, etc. Hence the reason to note a diminished as a flat five rather than a raised 4; it indicates that the diminished interval "wants" to resolve downward another half step (yielding the IV chord in your example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 21, 2008 Members Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm not sure how traditional harmony defines the usage of an augmented chord.... (since I've never studied harmony, only picked up a few little bits here and there) But I can use your example of a diminished interval wanting to resolve to the IV chord, and adapt it to an augmented chord: Take a I chord, say E major (E, G#, B) Build an augmented chord based 1/2 step below the IV chord: (G#, B#, E) Resolve to the IV: (A, C#, E) Billy Joel does this in "Movin Out" (but not in the same key, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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