talent or work? Case closed!

[MusicalSchizo]

Oh man, you totally beat me to it - that is the very first thing that came to my mind.

I think Bajazz means well, I mean, his focus has been not on crapping on people's dreams - that anyone with the physical ability (some people call it "talent") and time can master a task, which is basically what the article said.

But I don't know why he kept insisting that there's no such thing as aptitude or being gifted, because that's just horse{censored}. I'm living proof (as I detailed in my voice class audition story in a previous post). Early on, I had a good friend who also played guitar. This friend, Dave, practiced guitar more than I did (A LOT more), and I could do everything he practiced better than he could almost immediately upon hearing it. It used to drive him nuts because he worked so hard and it came so easy to me.

It's not that these anecdotes really matter, except for self-confirmation. It's that there are decades of research into the field of aptitude and "giftedness" that contradict his assertion than talent means nothing, and that it's "case closed" because it most certainly is not.

Brian V.

[isaac42]

Nor does any of this take away from the fact that having talent is not, by itself, enough. One needs to work, long and hard, to master technique. Talent might make it easier, might even be necessary to make it possible, but it's only a start.

[Bajazz]

 

No matter how much I try, I am not going to sing like JSS. You know why? Because he has a different shaped skull than I do, he has wider nostrils, and probably has a much bigger sinus cavity than I do based on his tone. No matter how much I practice, I will NEVER be able to sound like JSS. Ronnie James Dio, is the same thing - I will NEVER be able to sound like Dio, even though I use the same techniques that he does. So, I don't understand why you can't seem to grasp it.

Why would you want that? It's not needed as a singer. About it being impossible, check out this:

[YOUTUBE]Ci9ajQgdSL4[/YOUTUBE]

and other videos of this one. He is one of many impersators that can copy anyone. You hear him in the clip saying that it has taken him 20 years of hard work.

 

Unless you are gonna be a impersonator I don't see copying as necessary.

 

Some people are just more talented in some areas than others, and some people have a genetic advantage over others. I'm 6' tall. A guy who is 6'9" is going to have a GENETIC ADVANTAGE when it comes to dunking a basketball.

Since when was basketball=dunking?

[MusicalSchizo]

Ironically amusing that the "talent doesn't exist" guy posts a clip from "America's Got Talent".

 

Brian V.

[Bajazz]

Ironically amusing that the "talent doesn't exist" guy posts a clip from "America's Got Talent". Brian V.

:confused:Where do I say that talent doesn't exist?:poke:

[MusicalSchizo]

:confused:Where do I say that talent doesn't exist?:poke:

It's a semantic consideration...meant as a joke.

If you didn't get the joke, you need to get over yourself.

Actually, you need that anyway, based on your insistence that the case is closed.
Brian V.

[AzraelsWings]

It's a semantic consideration...meant as a joke. If you didn't get the joke, you need to get over yourself. Actually, you need that anyway, based on your insistence that the case is closed. Brian V.

On the topic of jokes, here's one of my personal favorites:

Ways to improve as a singer:
1. Vocalizing
2. Learning new and challenging songs
3. Ear training

Way not to improve as a singer:
1. Engage in a long and drawn out semantic forum battle with a non-native English speaker about the nuances of the language used in his argument for the value of practice and the psychologically limiting effects of the talent notion.

Cracks me up every time.

Brian—I hope that didn't come off as picking on you, your post just seemed to set it up nicely.

[Bajazz]

Oh, I can join in making jokes of each other. But is it only me that thinks MusicalSchizo just changed his comment into a joke after he read all posts again and still didn't find that I said what many here accuse me for?

I hope you have room for the non-natives on this forum. I'm sorry if I misunderstand a few details, but I think that most of my thougths, views and theories are summed up so far in this thread. And I try to read over what I've written to ensure I make a minimum of mistakes.

But anyway:

- So is there anyone that can explain this guy Terry Fator's skills? (see clips on youtube)

I mean, he clearly states that because of years of hard work he is able to impersonate anyone, women included. And the clips clearly shows it. And it has nothing to do with sheer dull technique, his impersonations are very soulful. How can one explain inborn ability and "never be able to sing like nn because of the physicque I'm born with" statements etc? Is Terry born with several sets of vocal cords? And can he alter the size and volume of his body/skull cavities?

[Bajazz]

Way not to improve as a singer: 1. Engage in a long and drawn out semantic forum battle with a non-native English speaker about the nuances of the language used in his argument for the value of practice and the psychologically limiting effects of the talent notion. Cracks me up every time. Brian—I hope that didn't come off as picking on you, your post just seemed to set it up nicely.

If it only was that simple... Many people see it as a right to be defensive about their loss of faith in themselves...and then they have their right.

[strat2]

You've brought up some good issues bajazz, but your never going to convince people here that there is no such thing as people being born with abilities way beyond the abilities of others.

Practice is the way to Carnegie, but we are all not created equal.

Those of you that aren't born with incredible abilities go for what you love most in life, and most likely it will eventually work out for you.

I think what bajazz is trying to say partly is that even losers like me can overcome circumstance, bad teachers and being born without turn key talent, I'd agree to that much........

[AzraelsWings]

Are you so shure this is something that people in these boards really believe in? And I mean REALLY? Don't you think lot's skip these steps cause of they doubt the value of it? If it only was that simple... Many people see it as a right to be defensive about their loss of faith in themselves...and then they have their right.

 

 

Indeed, I'm sure many do. Truth be told I would likely side closer to your end of the spectrum, Bajazz. (I say likely because frankly, I read the bulk of this thread some time ago and have no intention of rereading it to determine the particulars of every respondent's position.)

 

My thought, is that while latent or in-born talent may exist, it is very difficult to determine. Particularly by a layman still trying to develop a technical craft. The only people I would consider qualified to determine talent would be those with extensive experience observing persons' development in any given field. Let's take, for example, Tom Brady. Or, rather, any given professional athlete. Suppose that they have some level of latent talent. Now, suppose that rather than being raised playing football, Brady (or anonymous pro athlete X) was raised by a lawyer became a tax accountant. If that talent is truly latent, it would be absurd to state that Bizarro-Brady does not have the necessary talent to play professional football. It would be equally absurd to suppose that Brady would not realize the full potential of his talent without years on the field.

 

Yes, I would agree that it's easier to say, "I don't have the knack" than to put in the hours. But honestly, I do not have the level of ability to convince anyone of my argument. Neither do I have the time or the inclination to convince people to dream big if they'd rather write themselves off as talentless.

[Bajazz]

Being created differently only makes us developing our craft in our own way, which makes the world a lot more interesting. It's fun to look at tall basketball players dunking, but it's more fun to look at the short ones dunking. A friend of mine could leap over me if I bent my head down, but still stood standing. He also smashed the big guys in rugby. He really brought entertainment into the school gym.

My thought, is that while latent or in-born talent may exist, it is very difficult to determine

I'd say that talent, even if it's developed is hard to determine. Being very good at one tiny piece of the music arts can fool most people to believe you are the next big hit. I see this all the time, everyday.

Example, at a party a friend put on a CD and wanted to test me if I could "learn the song". It was a D-maj 4-chord vamp with some coloring and few easy licks and a variation on the chorus. This repeated tru the song, but peoples jaws dropped when I played along note-for-note the complete song after round 2 of the vamp. I tried to explain that any guitar player playing along to music can do this after a few years. But everyone on this party still today won't believe this. They all insist that I must be born with this ability. Then why had it been hiding till I was in my 30's??? No one of them (several plays guitar) had any faith that they could do it themselves. And of course, then it makes it true...

I don't have the ability to convince anybody either and won't start long disussions anywhere about this. I chose this board as this after all is a place that people go to discuss vocal technique, and you need at least a bit of faith in good'ole practice. But I still thought that too many was obsessed of this "you either got it or not"-thing. So this was the reason for linking to a article that showed us all how we could "get it" by working.

[flemtone]

I'd just like to break in here and say that I won't be posting in this thread.

Sorry. Carry on.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Everybody is born with some form of talent...after that, it's merely a question of how hard you're willing to work to develop your skills in that talent.

[MusicalSchizo]

On the topic of jokes, here's one of my personal favorites: Ways to improve as a singer: 1. Vocalizing 2. Learning new and challenging songs 3. Ear training Way not to improve as a singer: 1. Engage in a long and drawn out semantic forum battle with a non-native English speaker about the nuances of the language used in his argument for the value of practice and the psychologically limiting effects of the talent notion. Cracks me up every time. Brian—I hope that didn't come off as picking on you, your post just seemed to set it up nicely.

No, that was good. I deserved it. Sometimes I'm a foolishly arrogant prick, and it's important that it's pointed out to me so I can recognize it.

I still mantain the non-joke points, like him saying the case is closed shows a complete dearth of understanding on how scientific studies work.

But you're right. It wasn't funny.
Brian V.

[MusicalSchizo]

Oh, I can join in making jokes of each other. But is it only me that thinks MusicalSchizo just changed his comment into a joke after he read all posts again and still didn't find that I said what many here accuse me for?

 

Well, if anyone else thinks that, they're wrong. It was a joke from the start. I thought it was funny. It wasn't. Mea culpa.

 

And you have been quoted clearly as saying that inborn talent doesn't exist. Green As Jade did it.

 

 

I hope you have room for the non-natives on this forum. I'm sorry if I misunderstand a few details, but I think that most of my thougths, views and theories are summed up so far in this thread. And I try to read over what I've written to ensure I make a minimum of mistakes.

 

Of course there's room for non-natives here - this is an international forum. I just dispute your assertion that there's no such thing as people having a knack for certain things - things coming easier to some more than others. I think that's a crock, and the title of this thread as "Case Closed" just shows how you seek to justify your STATED opinion that anyone can do anything with enough practice.

 

 

But anyway: - So is there anyone that can explain this guy Terry Fator's skills? (see clips on youtube)

 

He has a good ear for voices? He knows how to apply them to the structure he was born with?

 

 

I mean, he clearly states that because of years of hard work he is able to impersonate anyone, women included.

 

Yeah, so?

 

 

And the clips clearly shows it. And it has nothing to do with sheer dull technique, his impersonations are very soulful.

 

Debatable...but he is good.

 

 

How can one explain inborn ability and "never be able to sing like nn because of the physicque I'm born with" statements etc? Is Terry born with several sets of vocal cords? And can he alter the size and volume of his body/skull cavities?

 

These questions only show your ignorance about how the human voice works and how impressionists do what they do...and your continued insistence on being completely right, when it's pretty clear you're just engaging in endless self-justification.

 

Which makes for stupid, endless, circular arguments.

 

Like this one!

Brian V.

[MusicalSchizo]

Are you so shure this is something that people in these boards really believe in? And I mean REALLY? Don't you think lot's skip these steps cause of they doubt the value of it?

 

No. Some don't have the time, though, for sure.

 

 

If it only was that simple... Many people see it as a right to be defensive about their loss of faith in themselves...and then they have their right.

 

I've lost no faith in myself. Would I be this much of an arrogant prick if I had?

 

I just know my history with singing, and it was pretty easy for me, being a mimic since I was old enough to talk, and didn't take a ton of practice to get where I am (which is good enough to play professionally and be hired back repeatedly).

 

If I practiced more, I'd be truly great. I have complete confidence in that.

 

As of now, I get by, because I work full time and I feel spending time with my young children is much more valuable than practicing singing for two hours a day.

 

Time to go. Best of luck, Bajazz!

Brian V.

[Bajazz]

Which makes for stupid, endless, circular arguments.

But we still join in....

What about some more solid info on this topic? If any could share some links I'd be happy!!

[strat2]

Still have no idea what you're trying to say, but here's a statement I've heard that is complete bull{censored} to any of you noobs out there.........

"You either have it or you don't"


Don't ever believe that one, if you want it, go for it and make it yours.
It might take you longer than others but if you love it and devote your life to it , you'd be shocked at what you can achieve.

[Surrealistic]

I've come late to this thread and I haven't read through every post but I think I have the gist - and I simply can't agree that innate talent plays little or no part. If hard work were the main thing needed I'd be totally screwed

[Bajazz]

Still have no idea what you're trying to say, but here's a statement I've heard that is complete bull{censored} to any of you noobs out there......... "You either have it or you don't" Don't ever believe that one, if you want it, go for it and make it yours. It might take you longer than others but if you love it and devote your life to it , you'd be shocked at what you can achieve.

Well, it's pretty much the same I try to say. Only you choose to use a bit less words...

[Bajazz]

If hard work were the main thing needed I'd be totally screwed

Actually it don't have to be perceived as hard work. It can in fact be fun and playing/fooling around.

[Surrealistic]

Actually it don't have to be perceived as hard work. It can in fact be fun and playing/fooling around.

That's true but not relevant to the point. It seems clear to me that some people produce results with little effort that are way better than others who work their socks off.

[Bajazz]

That's true but not relevant to the point. It seems clear to me that some people produce results with little effort that are way better than others who work their socks off.

I used to think so too. I was always the one that seemed to work harder than others. But once I got to a certain point, things were evened out. After a few thousand hours you start to get a much more oiled and tuned machinery.

 

A friend of mine seemed to be born guitar player and he didn't practice. Ever. But somehow whenever possible, he always had a guitar in his lap, noodling around. And it struck me that he probably played guitar many hours a day. So adding up all the hours he played, it was completely logical that he was a good guitar player.

[isaac42]

And some people work for a lifetime and don't succeed. By succeed, I'm not talking about "making it", just succeeding at the chosen task. How many people move to a new country and even after decades of practice, can't speak their adopted language properly, while others pass as natives after only a few years?

 

In my mind, the answer is that work can make you competent - you can speak the language and make yourself understood -but isn't enough to make you excel. That takes talent. Neither alone is sufficient.