Members Bajazz Posted January 26, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 26, 2009 In my mind, the answer is that work can make you competent - you can speak the language and make yourself understood -but isn't enough to make you excel. That takes talent. Neither alone is sufficient.I think that work + focus + joy will take you there. I don't believe there must be something magic. Unless you by talent mean the drive and love towards something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members strat2 Posted January 27, 2009 Members Share Posted January 27, 2009 And some people work for a lifetime and don't succeed. By succeed, I'm not talking about "making it", just succeeding at the chosen task. How many people move to a new country and even after decades of practice, can't speak their adopted language properly, while others pass as natives after only a few years? In my mind, the answer is that work can make you competent - you can speak the language and make yourself understood -but isn't enough to make you excel. That takes talent. Neither alone is sufficient. We are pissing in the wind, I think he just wants the argument....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted January 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2009 Because of work, of course. Those who don't make it, don't want enough to succeed. They learn the basics and are satisfied with that.Those that want to be better listen to small details, keeps trying and gets better.You need to want to go on to another level and do the things that will take you there.Keep doing what you already can is repeating your mistakes and this will not take you further. Those doing this are satisfied with their skills and have chosen not to work getting better.Then there are those that have adapted their learning process as a way to be. They keep learning in their chosen field(s) in a way that are very natural and keep going with the stream. This is making learning fun, and even don't realize it even is work. Work don't have to be boring, it don't even be anything nearby what you see as work right now. Doing this is also something that must be learned.I think that work + focus + joy will take you there. I don't believe there must be something magic. Unless you by talent mean the drive and love towards something. Neither I, nor anyone else I know of, has ever suggested that magic is involved. Why keep knocking down the same straw man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted January 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 27, 2009 Neither I, nor anyone else I know of, has ever suggested that magic is involved. Then exactly, what is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SevenString Posted January 27, 2009 Members Share Posted January 27, 2009 Then exactly, what is it? Science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted January 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2009 Science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Koehn Posted January 28, 2009 Members Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here are some questions (and my answers) I received at my www.vocalvision website concerning this subject. • I don’t like the sound of my voice. People keep telling me that I’m a good singer, and have a lot of talent, but when I hear myself on recordings, or through a PA system I sound really bad. Who’s right?A good pop, rock, country singer does not necessarily need a great voice, any more than a good guitar player needs a good guitar in order to create excellent, meaningful music. Give Steve Vai an old beat-up guitar withonly three strings and he can still give you great music. Of course, a better instrument–guitar, trumpet, voice, or whatever–will improve the sound, and just as importantly, inspire the performer. • Are you saying that anyone can be a professional-quality singer?I’m saying that the secret to good pop-rock-country singing lies in the personality and “spirit” of the singer. THIS IS WHAT I FEEL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT "TALENT" DEFINING A GOOD SINGER. If you can reach people with your singing…make them feel something (other than nausea) youpossess the primary skill (talent) for singing. Of course, a better quality voice with a wider range, good vibrato and breath control will improve your performance, but there are many famous singers with faulty voicesand the ability to express feeling and emotion. There are very few famous singers with wonderful voices and no ability to tap into their emotions and those of the listener.al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SevenString Posted January 28, 2009 Members Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here are some questions (and my answers) I received at my www.vocalvision website concerning this subject. • I don’t like the sound of my voice. People keep telling me that I’m a good singer, and have a lot of talent, but when I hear myself on recordings, or through a PA system I sound really bad. Who’s right? A good pop, rock, country singer does not necessarily need a great voice, any more than a good guitar player needs a good guitar in order to create excellent, meaningful music. Give Steve Vai an old beat-up guitar with only three strings and he can still give you great music. Of course, a better instrument–guitar, trumpet, voice, or whatever–will improve the sound, and just as importantly, inspire the performer. • Are you saying that anyone can be a professional-quality singer? I’m saying that the secret to good pop-rock-country singing lies in the personality and “spirit” of the singer. THIS IS WHAT I FEEL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT "TALENT" DEFINING A GOOD SINGER. If you can reach people with your singing…make them feel something (other than nausea) you possess the primary skill (talent) for singing. Of course, a better quality voice with a wider range, good vibrato and breath control will improve your performance, but there are many famous singers with faulty voices and the ability to express feeling and emotion. There are very few famous singers with wonderful voices and no ability to tap into their emotions and those of the listener. al I agree with what you're saying, and let me add that I believe there are singers with varying levels of "emotional" talent, or the latent ability to reach other people with their singing, and varying levels of "technical" talent, or the latent ability to rapidly develop a world-class technical singing ability.I also agree that purely technical singers will tend to have limited success, outside of certain limited domains of music that seem value technical proficiency over emotion.Personally, it is when the two types of talent come together, both emotional and technical, that is the magic formula for me.For instance, Geoff Tate started getting notoriety back in the early 80s for his technical ability, but it was really his soulful aspect, especially evident in "Mindcrime", that made him such an icon for rock/metal/progressive singers. And it is this soulful aspect COMBINED with his technical mastery that makes it such a joy for me to listen to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted January 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2009 I’m saying that the secret to good pop-rock-country singing lies in the personality and “spirit” of the singer. THIS IS WHAT I FEEL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT "TALENT" DEFINING A GOOD SINGER. If you can reach people with your singing…make them feel something (other than nausea) you possess the primary skill (talent) for singing. Of course, a better quality voice with a wider range, good vibrato and breath control will improve your performance, but there are many famous singers with faulty voices and the ability to express feeling and emotion. There are very few famous singers with wonderful voices and no ability to tap into their emotions and those of the listener.alYup. I would say that the spirit is what drives the music. Just like current/voltage. Voltage drives the current and the end resulting power is what counts. Power=current*voltage --> Music=technique*spiritBeing a musician is mastering many skills: technique, emotion (improvisation), presence, delivery, business, communication etc... All of this is learned, and the level of all the skills defines your musician type at the moment.Your spirit is however the master drive that pushes you. It's also what can drive you towards working on and developing the other skills. I've seen lot of spirited musicians who never got out gigging. Many being seen as "talented". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted January 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2009 Personally, it is when the two types of talent come together, both emotional and technical, that is the magic formula for me.I agree. But the real problem is that emotion is harder to define, judge and agree on than technique. So this will always be individual taste. I believe when you've followed the 10 000 hours rule, it is totally impossible to only have developed pure technique and none emotional development. When you play music you need to want to do it. (see spirit drive above) You need to put some emotion into it, even if you just play scales and arpeggios there must be some urge to do it. And especially learning tunes/songs is when you develop your emotional skills. When you have learned the song there is emotion that drives you when you perform it. One thing I often will do is to first listen, then learn, then play a song till I puke. After a few hundreds/thousand times the song is totally glued to your muscle memory. Then I taker a BIIIIG break from the song. Days or Weeks, and even on occasions over a year. When you then perform this song you will have 0% focus on technique or memorizing melody or lyrics. That's when you really can concentrate on emotions, delivery, communication etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SevenString Posted January 31, 2009 Members Share Posted January 31, 2009 Natural ability without education has more often attained to glory and virtue than education without natural ability. - Cicero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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