Members Nobodeesbidness Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 Does anyone know the real story on Chris Squires amazing tone from the early to mid 70s Yes recordings? For years I thought this tone was supposed to characteristic of 4001s and the Ric-O-Sound input. To the best of my understanding via first hand experience, it is not. I admit that the Squire signature 4001 slightly gets it, but nothing like those old Yes recordings that have that full round bottom frequency with that perfectly brutal crunchy, not fuzzy, texture on top. Man that guys playing and tone are just so magical and amazing on those early recordings. It seems that it must goes beyond his personal playing too. Personal style string attack in and of itself, or fingers vs. pick, is not it either it seems because I have never heard anyone but Geddy really come close to getting it and I am confused as to whether he even used a Rick to get it. Geddy definitely used a 4001 at one point however because I have seen plenty of photos through the years with him playing one. Of course Squire's tone has nothing to do with his live set up because it's only the recorded tone I am referring to here. The 4003s don't even come close to modeling it electronically IMO. It's a fascinating thing for the old and young bass dogs to yap about. One thing I have always wondered is whether my active electronics prevent me from getting close through my Tech 21 RBI or not. Maybe it's all in the stereo wiring. Maybe Chris was from another planet and recorded these bass lines in a flying hot saucer? Any thoughts? I think I'm close to the edge of my sanity trying to figure this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 23, 2012 Maybe it's in the studio. Lots of things can be done in the studio that can't (or couldn't then) be done on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members perrydabassman Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 From what I understand, he leans heavily on one of those old ART Nightbass rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nobodeesbidness Posted November 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 I have been reading a bit on the Inet today because we are kind of slow at work. As a result I have some questions I would like to ask the Ric users here. Are Rics wired stereo so that the neck pup is on one channel and the bridge pup on the other?A Ric has two input jacks. Is one the right side and the other the left or is the pick up marked ric-o-sound a stereo trs jack input in which individual pups are split up and designated right and left, whereas the other input is a mono input in which both pick ups are combined? When running a Ric into a recording console/interface, do you have one side in one mono channel, and the other in another, or do you combine both panned hard in the same stereo channel?Apart from Chris' playing style which includes a muting/deadening action of his picking hand's thumb to string, just post the pick tip's string attack, I think it's in the fact that he seemed to use a guitar head for one pick up, and a bass head for the other. If I am reading between the lines here, it would seem that these basses are wired stereo so that one pick up is on one channel and the other on another. This would mean that all these 4001s I have tried would have been incorrectly demoed by me. They weren't being run in true stereo. Oh the humiliation of it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 23, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 23, 2012 Originally Posted by Nobodeesbidness I have been reading a bit on the Inet today because we are kind of slow at work. As a result I have some questions I would like to ask the Ric users here. Are Rics wired stereo so that the neck pup is on one channel and the bridge pup on the other? Yes. A Ric has two input jacks. Is one the right side and the other the left or is the pick up marked ric-o-sound a stereo trs jack input in which individual pups are split up and designated right and left, whereas the other input is a mono input in which both pick ups are combined? Those are not input jacks, they are output jacks. One is mono, both pickups or either, as in most other basses. The other is TRS. Tip is the bridge pickup, ring is the neck pickup. When running a Ric into a recording console/interface, do you have one side in one mono channel, and the other in another, or do you combine both panned hard in the same stereo channel? Whatever you want to do. When I was using the Ric-O-Sound output, I ran each into a separate channel, panned hard. Others use the neck pup as the bass, the bridge for effects. Apart from Chris' playing style which includes a muting/deadening action of his picking hand's thumb to string, just post the pick tip's string attack, I think it's in the fact that he seemed to use a guitar head for one pick up, and a bass head for the other. If I am reading between the lines here, it would seem that these basses are wired stereo so that one pick up is on one channel and the other on another. This would mean that all these 4001s I have tried would have been incorrectly demoed by me. They weren't being run in true stereo. Oh the humiliation of it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sunburstbasser Posted November 24, 2012 Members Share Posted November 24, 2012 The 4003 has slightly different pickups than the 4001. The 4001 uses a toaster pickup in the neck and a horseshoe pickup in the bridge. On a 4003, both pickups use individual polepieces. This is the big difference between the two electronically. Listen to some of those old recordings again, notably Roundabout. Chris runs his action really low and gets a LOT of fret buzz, which is actually part of his tone. Supposedly, he uses a coin instead of a plastic pick as well. I can't really make out his pick in any video I've ever seen. And of course, a big part of his tone really IS in the way he plays. He used a Fender Jazz for Parallels off of Going For The One, for instance, and a Mouradian for Tempus Fugit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 24, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 24, 2012 Depends on what year. My 4001 (the one with the original pups) has the high gain pup, the one with pole pieces, in both positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 24, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 24, 2012 A bit of research tells me that Rickenbacker started using the high gain pup in '69 or so. The 4003 didn't replace the 4001 until 1981, and some people say they bought 4001's as late as 1983. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 24, 2012 Members Share Posted November 24, 2012 Eddy Offord was the main reason why the bass sounds so good on Squire's stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny Crab Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Joe Macre(Crack the Sky, Wild Cherry) got a VERY similar tone live with Crack the Sky in the early days using a 4001( http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f28/wh...ck-sky-306019/ ). If you can find a boot of the Live from Jazz City Studio in New Orleans with the genius Cosimo Matassa mixing, you'll hear it loud and clear. Cosimo's genius lie in the fact that he would walk into a room, ask the band to play something, and then he would duplicate what he heard in that room on tape(or for live broadcast as the CTS stuff was). PS: Sometimes things are not what they seem, perhaps Chris did something completely different to capture that sound. I've read of more than one well-known bassist using a cheap, pushed-to-the-edge never-heard-of-brand amp in the studio to get a particular sound recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 25, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 25, 2012 Along that line, I don't remember who it was, but some famous guitarist said that tube amps were fine and all, but "the best tone is a Sunn Concert lead turned all the way up." He went so far as to have several Marshall stacks on stage, but the actual sound came from a Sunn Concert Lead, miked, in the back where no one could see it. Kept the stage volume really low, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lz4005 Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Originally Posted by isaac42 Those are not input jacks, they are output jacks. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nobodeesbidness Posted November 27, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2012 Originally Posted by lug Eddy Offord was the main reason why the bass sounds so good on Squire's stuff. I'm thinking you pretty much nailed it lug. Truth be told, this tone does not exist as far as Squire is concerned apart from those few classic Yes albums IMO. The best example I hear being The Yes Album. Squire doesn't get the tone I am referring to here live apart from sound like a typical hard/sustaining 4001 does, and whereas his signature playing I'm certain obviously contributes on the recordings, it's not the big picture here in terms of his achieved recorded tone on these few albums. I've listened to those youtube guys that supposedly duplicate his tone with Sansamp stuff, and whereas they do come close to a classic Ric's tone or Jazz Bass growl, it's a case for "sorry, you don't win the Squire's class Yes album recorded designer tone cigar" IMO. Sorry about the input/output jack confusion. Didn't mean to ruffle any skirts or feathers via my quick responses. Over the last 35 years of my life as an active bassist I've just always thought of it as the place where I plugged the cord into my bass. Technically of course it's where the output of the bass comes from. I guess it's a case for "in through the out door". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted November 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted November 27, 2012 No offense taken. I can be a bit obsessive about details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heatheroo Posted November 28, 2012 Members Share Posted November 28, 2012 As I recall, Squire's 4001 also had a fair amount of wood routed out of the body. Supposedly this had a marked effect on his tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted November 29, 2012 Members Share Posted November 29, 2012 Originally Posted by heatheroo As I recall, Squire's 4001 also had a fair amount of wood routed out of the body. Supposedly this had a marked effect on his tone. Not routed out, stripped off the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Radar-Love Posted December 1, 2012 Members Share Posted December 1, 2012 Originally Posted by Nobodeesbidness I think it's in the fact that he seemed to use a guitar head for one pick up, and a bass head for the other. Even though you can use the Ric-O-Sound output to send each pickup's output to a separate amp or separate amp channel, the Chris Squire studio bass sound was done using only the neck pickup on his 4001 and routing that signal to a cross-over filter which in turn routed the high frequency content of the signal to a Marshall Plexi guitar head and the low frequency content of the signal to an Ampeg SVT. The speaker cabinets these amps were connected to were mic'd for the recording. There was also some tone capacitor trickery performed that I don't recall the details of. However, I don't believe it was changing the treble bleed capacitor value but possibly eliminating the capacitor entirely from the tone circuit of the 4001. PS: This is basically what I recall reading in an article on Chris Squire in Guitar Player magazine back in the 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhetoricjams Posted December 12, 2012 Members Share Posted December 12, 2012 more than make and model, I think Squire's attack + playing with a pick + low action/great percussive muting technique create this sound more than anything. I have gotten comparisons to squire just by attacking my low-action p-bass with a resonator over the bridge and the tone knob dialed up....(Relayer type tone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reverse Entropy Posted December 13, 2012 Members Share Posted December 13, 2012 Check out the Wikipedia article for Chris Squire, in the section under 'Style" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Squire Basically it explains he had a 'budget' model 4001, the RM1999, which he rewired into a stereo-split and used two separate amps for a fuzzed (guitar amp) neck pickup and a clean (bassy) bridge pickup sound. So, the opposite of what I'd normally expect from each pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boofin Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 My two cents. I play a 4003 Rick with a pick. Since Squires bass has a 'horseshoe' pickup, he only has two choices of where to pick. Either way in front of the pickup, with his hand resting on the pickup or behind. Most of the time I see him, he is playing behind the pickup and this is very close to the bridge and therefore gives him an especially twangy tone. I don't hear people mentioning this much. Also, I feel he still got his tone live in the late 60's and 70's. The BBC live recordings, which were always done very quickly - in a few hours, have Squires famous tone all over them. And YesSongs as well. I can pretty easily get a tone like that even playing through software. If you want, I can send you a short mp3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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