When to say "Screw it, I'm getting a modeler"

[crossways]

Upper left hand corner the "tone modify" section.
the two settings that say H -> S and S -> H at about the 1 and 2 o'clock positions.

[Lee Flier]

Well not exactly... The Boss ME-50 has a switch on it that is basically an eq that "claims" to make the tone go from humbucker to Single coil or vice versa. I won't argue whether it does what it claims, however!

Yeah... LOL... I have to say I tried an ME-50 and returned it after a few days. It colored my tone and made it really brittle and awful even when no effects were turned on. And I didn't think any of the effects were that great. I really wanted to like it, it'd be nice to have that many effects in one box and there's a lot less fussing with LCD menus than other multieffects units... but it just didn't sound good.

[JAFH]

Modeling kick ass. Get a modeler. Use it with your amp (I always keep the same settings on the amp) or go straight to the PA. Ditch the pedalboard, that's what the modeler is for. I look at this way - the amp/cab/mic models are, in essence, just another pedal to give you a desired tone. The downside to a modeler is that if you think you're sick of fiddling with knobs now, wait until you get a modeler and start trying to create tones; it takes hours sometimes to dial up a good combination but at least you can save it and return to the exact same tone every time.

 

 

I tried Modeling, and found it just sounded so artificial. I guess, if you dig it, then it's good for you - I just couldn't get used to the feel. As far as "fiddling with knobs" is concerned, and Multi-effects unit should end all that. You just set up pre-set patches, save them and Bob's your uncle. I use the GT-10, but I'm sure that the competitor's work pretty much the same way.

[crossways]

Yeah... LOL... I have to say I tried an ME-50 and returned it after a few days. It colored my tone and made it really brittle and awful even when no effects were turned on. And I didn't think any of the effects were that great. I really wanted to like it, it'd be nice to have that many effects in one box and there's a lot less fussing with LCD menus than other multieffects units... but it just didn't sound good.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I use modelers in church on rare occasions and use a POD now for DI recording. I bet I have bought every modeler out there and they have all ended up on the 'bay. They just don't cut it for me live.

I was drawn to the ME-50 because it was NOT a modeler, but rather "every stomp box" Boss makes in one simple package. I hate "deep editing" so I liked the simplicity of "knobs" only.

But it obiviously isn't exactly what it was marketed as.



I don't think it is a useless tool though. But I am resigned that I am going the pedal board route. Especially since you can get very useful pedalboard cases, that eliminate set up. I am taking my time though, I want to try several pedals before I "commit" them to the board.

[Electric Catfish]

Well not exactly... The Boss ME-50 has a switch on it that is basically an eq that "claims" to make the tone go from humbucker to Single coil or vice versa. I won't argue whether it does what it claims, however! I am wondering if a coil tap would be enough to get the umph for the overdrive he wants. My Carvin AE-185 has Humbuckers with the coil splitter. I get a wide range of tones from that guitar alone. Though I do like my ME-50, but generally use it sparingly

I stand corrected.

The "every stompbox Boss makes" wouldn't really be possible, though. Most of Boss's pedals are analog, aside from delays, and some modulation. Analog effects (particularly overdrives/fuzzes/etc.) interact with the signal chain in a way that digital counterparts don't. I'd imagine the delays and whatnot are probably dead on though, aren't they?

Anything can be a useful tool, in the right hands. I'm not anti-modeler. I am anti-modeler-nazi, though. They're out there. I've been called a technophobe, before, which couldn't be further from the truth. I just dig what sounds good and does what I need it to do, and so far, my old, clunky, ratty analog gear is doing the trick, for the most part.

[elbow]

....I don't think it is a useless tool though. But I am resigned that I am going the pedal board route. Especially since you can get very useful pedalboard cases, that eliminate set up. I am taking my time though, I want to try several pedals before I "commit" them to the board.

+1

I use a pedal board and have maybe 5 stomp-boxes, including tuner, on the board. I have learned a few things about pedals in this regard too:

1. You can't rely on someone else saying "try this pedal, you'll like it". Everyone hears things a bit differently.

2. The pedal will always sound different in your rig than it did in the store. Be prepared for surprises, good and bad, and the possibility that you'll be bringing it back to the store.

3. Even if you are lucky enough to try the pedal on a similar amp and guitar, if it's going to be in a chain of effects, it will usually sound different too.

[germanicus2112]

I'm still confused about how, with the exception of effected sounds, 20+ variations on clean and dirty could possibly be necessary. Are you counting every subtle tonal change from one "tone" to the other? Also, like Lee said, a modeller won't make a single coil sound like a humbucker. They don't even claim to do that, for that matter.

 

 

Actually there are modellers that do this, guitar modellers. Some of which model different body styles and different pickup types and configurations.

 

The term Modeller as used on these boards is pretty expansive. It can apply to the guitar itself, effects, or amp.

 

The pods do amps and effects. The variax does guitars. The roland vg99 does all three.

 

I also think it depends on what type of music you are playing as per how many tones you need. One aspect not really brought up so much in these discussions, is that of Alternate tuning, which for me, is the biggest selling point with guitar modellers.

 

I could not do my current set without a guitar modeller unless I were to take at least 6 guitars with me on stage, and swapping them mid song would be near impossible (acoustic and electric Standard, DADGAD, CGCGCE, CGDGCD, BbFDFBbF). For those using alot of alternate tunings, they are wonderful tools.

[Electric Catfish]

Actually there are modellers that do this, guitar modellers. Some of which model different body styles and different pickup types and configurations. The term Modeller as used on these boards is pretty expansive. It can apply to the guitar itself, effects, or amp. The pods do amps and effects. The variax does guitars. The roland vg99 does all three. I also think it depends on what type of music you are playing as per how many tones you need. One aspect not really brought up so much in these discussions, is that of Alternate tuning, which for me, is the biggest selling point with guitar modellers. I could not do my current set without a guitar modeller unless I were to take at least 6 guitars with me on stage, and swapping them mid song would be near impossible (acoustic and electric Standard, DADGAD, CGCGCE, CGDGCD, BbFDFBbF). For those using alot of alternate tunings, they are wonderful tools.

I've already been corrected on the humbucker sim. I was thinking of "modellers" in terms of amplifiers, rather than including the other stuff, is where I went wrong.

For a LOT of alternate tunings (Joni Mitchell territory), I could see the benefit, even necessity, but it's still a compromise. When I use alternate tunings, particularly open tunings and DADGAD, it has more to do with the overall physical resonance of the tuning, and the way the guitar (yes, even electric ones) vibrate differently, than it does the fingerings.

For slide, for example, I simulate open G in standard sometimes by fretting the high E string two frets behind (and under) the slide, but it still sounds a little different from real open G, even though the strings are vibrating in key.
]
I'd imagine it'd get even further away from that if the string was vibrating in one pitch, and the digital stuff turned it into another. It won't resonate the same (though I guess they've probably put a synthetic version of that in there, too).

[ggm1960]

 

you've got offstage switching, or are using a midi device to send prog/bank change messages to it (a sequencer can do that easily, as can most any pro keyboard with split/layer capability.)

 

 

I have a MOTU Midi Timepiece AV-USB configured with patches, modifiers and midi cannons set up to respond to the jog wheel on my Roland XP-30 keyboard and do patch changes for me between songs. High tech and complex to setup but extremely cool!

[doubleR]

Upper left hand corner the "tone modify" section. the two settings that say H -> S and S -> H at about the 1 and 2 o'clock positions.

I haven't used those, but I have used the acoustic simulator setting. It's pretty decent....if you have your amp set correctly it sounds passably like a 12-string.

[JAFH]

At the risk of sounding like a BOSS salesman, you really have to check out the GT10.
It allows you to channel-switch your amp, which makes it easy to still use the amp and get a great tube tone, plus it gives you the things that BOSS does well, like chorus and delay (and about 1000 other effects that I'm likely to never use).
I use the effects sparingly, and use the patch output to gain control the amp, which makes it possible to switch patches from just a little overdriven to higher gain while still using the amp's gain channel. Set up one of the control switches for your boost and you're ready to roll.

[gtrjones]

At what point do you get sick of hauling around your 2x12 cab, head, ab box with another 2x12 combo, cabling, pedalboard, and constantly fiddling with the knobs and dialing in this or that sound, being frustrated, questioning your pickups, your amp, your pedal chain, questioning your own playing ability, and just say "Screw it" and sell it all and buy a pod or Roland Cube?

 

 

For me, it was when I found a modeler that responded to my guitar and pick attack like my tube amps did. I bought a Fractal Audio AxeFX, dialed-up a 'tweed deluxe', and a/b'd the modeler w/ my '53Deluxe. Then I sold the 53, and 2 other great tube amps, and have been gigging with the modeler direct to the PA for the last 6 months, and I'm not looking back.

 

*I* love it, and have had several people express amazement that my tones were coming from a modeler. It's expensive, but it's cheaper and easier to take a 2-rackspace unit that gives me 3 Fender, 2 Vox, 3 Marshall, and 2 other sounds (each great sounds, BTW) at the touch of a single switch, than buying and hauling even half of that to the club.

 

(For me, it's never been possible to get convincing Fender Twin, Tweed Deluxe, and Vox AC30 tones out of one amplifier with just pedals.)

[Spacehog26]

I have a couple of big valve heads and 4x12 cabs, but for rehearsals I've lately been using just my Digitech GSP1101 into the FX returns of a pair of Laney LC15R combos (so straight into teh EL84 power stages) and my rig's never sounded so good. I use a basic MIDI setup, and my Rocktron All Access has a bank of 15 patches for each band I play in... I'd say there's probably 7 or 8 basic sounds, and the rest are just specific effects. I can't imagine needing anything more than that. Yet to try it for gigging, but I'm certainly not averse to giving it a go!

[tubetonez]

For me, it was when I found a modeler that responded to my guitar and pick attack like my tube amps did. I bought a Fractal Audio AxeFX, dialed-up a 'tweed deluxe', and a/b'd the modeler w/ my '53Deluxe. Then I sold the 53, and 2 other great tube amps, and have been gigging with the modeler direct to the PA for the last 6 months, and I'm not looking back. *I* love it, and have had several people express amazement that my tones were coming from a modeler. It's expensive, but it's cheaper and easier to take a 2-rackspace unit that gives me 3 Fender, 2 Vox, 3 Marshall, and 2 other sounds (each great sounds, BTW) at the touch of a single switch, than buying and hauling even half of that to the club. (For me, it's never been possible to get convincing Fender Twin, Tweed Deluxe, and Vox AC30 tones out of one amplifier with just pedals.)

 

 

I'm on the list for one now, over the years I've tried most of the other modeling stuff and it never cut it live. It's a lot of money to throw down based on only online reviews, but so far the resale value is 100% if not more so it seems to be a good investment.

 

IMHO, as far as the basic tones from clean to dirty I can get it all from my JTM45 with just the guitar's volume and an OD for the higher gain. But, I seldom play anywhere that I can crank it up loud enough to get these tones. So I'm using more dirt & OD pedals instead with the amp at lower volumes, and this can be a pain as well trying to get consistent tone.

[teetop]

LOL yeah.... Well just to illustrate my point... here are 3 different tracks of me playing the same guitar (the '52 LP) thru 3 different amps. They are all combos, none of them have separate clean/dirty channels, and I'm using no pedals. Reverend Goblin Ampeg VT-40 (lead parts) Blackface Fender Pro Reverb

OMG!!! Love the Goldtop!!!

[GreenAsJade]

It is a real beauty to behold, eh?

 

I bet the first scratches were agony, but the collection tell a story that adds to the guitar rather than detracts!

 

GaJ

[Lee Flier]

Well, luckily it had already been well scratched up by the time I became its owner, even though that was... yipes, 24 years ago. Fine with me that it had already been well loved, seeing as it's older than I am!

 

But yeah, I'm in love, for sure... I have some other really cool guitars, but I rarely see any good reason to play anything else but the gold top.

[shmuck71]

I said screw it 2yrs ago with hauling way too much gear. At my age and current health, its much easier to go to a gig with guitar, GT-8, and a back pack. I may give up a little as far as sound goes, but not that much. No modeler is as good as the real thing, but with tweaking, a person can get it close. I guess one can't have it all.
If I ever get known enough to have roadies, then I will go back to the real deal!

[corbind]

I said screw it 2yrs ago with hauling way too much gear. At my age and current health, its much easier to go to a gig with guitar, GT-8, and a back pack. I may give up a little as far as sound goes, but not that much. No modeler is as good as the real thing, but with tweaking, a person can get it close. I guess one can't have it all. If I ever get known enough to have roadies, then I will go back to the real deal!

 

 

+1 Not as good, but the crowd is happy.

[cooterbrown]

 

How is it not 'real'? Am I imagining the sounds coming out of my amp? Am i not playing my guitar to make those sounds come through? eh 'Cooter'?

 

 

You missed my point.

 

Actually, what I meant was you are using a device that emulates and simulates various tube amps, cabs, and effects...with varying degrees of success.

 

I simply prefer to use the real thing...I've tried PODs and other modelers, and for me (and for my whole band -we have a "no modeler" policy) they've never cut it, live.

 

They always sound like bees in a can, to me.

 

And I'm not some amatuer bedroom player...I have over 3000 gigs under my belt over the span of 25 years. I do know how to get great sounds.

I don't think I've ever used stock patches on my keyboards, either...I make my own.

 

Like somebody else mentioned...those Pods, AX1500's and Roland VG8s all wound up on eBay, or in the consignment shop, or traded for something more useful, to me.

 

There are variables, transients, and acoustic phenomenae that happen with tube amps that just can't be recreated with digital modelers.

And I like those kind of things.

[DavidE2]

At what point do you get sick of hauling around your 2x12 cab, head, ab box with another 2x12 combo, cabling, pedalboard, and constantly fiddling with the knobs and dialing in this or that sound, being frustrated, questioning your pickups, your amp, your pedal chain, questioning your own playing ability, and just say "Screw it" and sell it all and buy a pod or Roland Cube? I'm pretty close to that point. I either buy 3 more guitars and 3 more amps to get the full range of sound I need, or just get a damn modeler.

 

 

 

Line6 Spider Valve. Finally good enough to gig with.

[toneforhire]

I know Im late into this thread but whats the difference between lugging a multi-effect unit like a gt-8 or a pedaltrain pro?? sure one might be a bit heavier but a pedaltrain pro is plenty big to get alot of pedals on there...including enough dirt to cover a few different tones/genres/sounds...

two guitars, a pedal board, a combo amp, and maybe a misc bag...maybe an ext speaker

[Lee Flier]

two guitars, a pedal board, a combo amp, and maybe a misc bag...

 

 

Yep, that's all I carry.

[wades_keys]

Yep, that's all I carry.

 

Sounds like a good, easy to carry rig.

 

I'm trying to convince my buddy to lose the power amp/4x12 rig in favor of an easy to lug 1x12 or 2x12 setup (easier load in/load out = easier, more fun gigs)

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I can't for the life of me understand why anybody'd bring an amp that was designed for arenas to a small club. Especially nowadays when there are so many great small tube combos on the market now that'll give you pretty much any sound you could want and sound great.