When to say "Screw it, I'm getting a modeler"

[cooterbrown]

 

I want the rig that Darth Vader would play. Jingly for his personal cocktail get-togethers, and death-tone for his Ipod in the Tai Fighter.

 

 

Darth Vader plays a baritone Les Paul into a Diesel VH4...no effects, except for a wah and an Echoplex...and it's TIE fighter. :poke:

[germanicus2112]

But it's not the real thing, is it? I can honestly say it doesn't surprise me that a person with "2112" in their name is ga-ga over digital modeling.

How is it not 'real'?

Am I imagining the sounds coming out of my amp? Am i not playing my guitar to make those sounds come through?

eh 'Cooter'?

[Roy Brooks]

I get all the sounds I need for the gigs I play with a couple guitars, one 1x12 or 2x10 tube combo, a tuner, and the cables to hook them up. I can carry my entire rig from my car to the stage in one trip. I like that.

[Gorgon90]

For the amp end, a Line 6 Spider Valve with a FBV Shortboard to control it should fit the bill. Knobs to tweak to dial in the tones and some basic effects if desired, lots of memory locations (certainly > 20) to store it all, all accessible from the Shortboard. You can either mic it up or DI it direct to the PA using the POD cab emulation as appropriate to the venue. I'm giving it serious thought myself.

I've not played one but guitar wise a PRS 513 should do anything you want in terms of single coil and humbucker sounds all in one guitar if I've read the specs right.

Good luck with it anyway.

[GreenAsJade]

I'm actually heading in the opposite direction to "Screw it I'm getting a modeller".

 

I've been playing my modeller through my Peavey combo mostly 'cause the combo is so loud I can't use the overdrive on it.

 

Then I realised I could do volume control in the FX loop of the Peavey, now I can use the tube overdrive at sensible volumes

 

So I have a patch in the modeller that just does compression and chorus if I want, but other than that nothing, use the amp for crunch.

 

Then I've gradually begun to find that I switch away from the "just use the amp" patch for some special song sound less and less. Playing the right notes well is mattering more and more than having "just that tone and set of FX".

 

I can anticipate that the modeller is heading in the direction of becoming a nicely packaged pedalboard (all in one box) for my amp

 

What next ... I suppose I'll be buying individual pedals next

 

GaJ

[stratotastic]

Yeah, it baffles me too how someone can need so many different sounds when playing live. "Need" is the key word there--it's a total judgment call. Somebody mentioned about the audience not being able to notice, which is absolutely true. The only reason you "need" 50 different sounds is because you think you do. If you're a good player in a good band, you're gonna blend with everybody else anyway so there's even less chance that some random drunk hardhat in the audience is gonna be thinking "wow, I'm really enjoying how his tone has a slight 3k scoop with a soup

[wades_keys]

Just go get a damn modeler already if that's what you want.

Play it - if you like it, buy it and use it.

The guitarist in the Broadway production "moving out" used a pod pro to get all of the different guitar tones from various Billy Joel albums.

Last time I checked, no one was leaving the venue because of {censored}ty tone.

Also, Steve Howe uses the Line6 Variax for some things, and Peter Frampton's former guitarist Bob Mayo (RIP) used a Pod as well.

So you're in good company if you choose to go that route - it's completely up to you.

One tip - get a good clean power amp -DON'T GO DIRECT TO PA, you'll regret that...

[wades_keys]

Yeah, it baffles me too how someone can need so many different sounds when playing live. "Need" is the key word there--it's a total judgment call. Somebody mentioned about the audience not being able to notice, which is absolutely true. The only reason you "need" 50 different sounds is because you think you do.

 

Horse{censored}.

 

I could just as easily slam you for using one tone all night long, but I won't.

 

You're right, it is a judgement call - it's his to make.

[GreenAsJade]

 

One tip - get a good clean power amp -DON'T GO DIRECT TO PA, you'll regret that...

 

 

Why is that?

 

Not questioning that it's true, just wondering why it would be.

 

A PA should be a hi fi reproduction of what goes in from the modeller. So should an amp. Why does it make a difference?

 

Thanks!

 

GaJ

[Coustfan'01]

I have a vetta II. They really do anything you want , and more. You do get comments like" oh , it's a line 6... change that for a mesa" from time to time, but it sounds great , and just try to find with another amp with direct outs , tuner , wah , 64 user saved patches, etc... all of which are usable live.

[wades_keys]

Why is that? Not questioning that it's true, just wondering why it would be. A PA should be a hi fi reproduction of what goes in from the modeller. So should an amp. Why does it make a difference?

 

I'm not sure why, but it does.

 

I would guess it's the POD speaker sim, which you turn off when using as a preamp.

 

Mic'ing the cab through the PA results in a much better tone overall - it has more body and isn't as "compressed" and "direct" sounding.

 

The poweramp makes a difference too - sometimes a big difference!

 

Try to find an old Yamaha Natural Sound 200 watt - they're 4u and heavy but that amp has a character to it that's great for using with a POD.

 

Definitely DON"T use a cheap or "mushy" power amp - it won't cut well - one with a high sensitivity that "tracks" quickly is best.

[wades_keys]

If you're a good player in a good band, you're gonna blend with everybody else anyway so there's even less chance that some random drunk hardhat in the audience is gonna be thinking "wow, I'm really enjoying how his tone has a slight 3k scoop with a soup

[GCDEF]

Horse{censored}. I could just as easily slam you for using one tone all night long, but I won't. You're right, it is a judgement call - it's his to make.

 

 

He's right, and he's wrong. Although we're probably not aware of it, I would think most of us go through 20 or more tones a night, we just don't need a modeler to do it.

 

I can easily go from clean to crunch or crunch to roar just by changing pick attack. You can change the level of distortion or attack with your guitar's volume knob. A Strat with S1 switching has 10 different pickup combinations, all of which sound different. My amp has two channels with two different voices each, lead boost, scoop, and a bunch of tone controls. All of them can easily affect the sound. Add a fairly decent pedal board and you can have wah, chorus, vibe, delay, compression, OD, tremolo, etc.

 

There are quite literally thousands of possible combinations of sound with a decent guitar, a decent versatile amp, and a pedal board.

 

A modeler's an all in one tool that can accomplish pretty much the same variety although probably not quite as well, but it's easy enough to do, and to me much more satisfying to do the old fashioned way.

[backtoblue]

For what it's worth, 99% of our gigs I can get away with running my guitars through a Boss GT-8 just as a pedalboard (no modeling), then into a Vox Valvetronix 15 watt combo. The combo's line out straight into our PA. I think it sounds great. Maybe it's the fact that our mains are 15", but it sounds full and rich to my ears. I've even set up some patches on the GT-8 with amp sims and have had some success with it straight to the board. I use crunchy to mildly overdriven sounds though, so that probably helps. If you're one to use heavy distortion, probably stick to tube amps. I would recommend checking out the Valvetronix if you're looking for some versatile sounds.

[Hamer_Time]

I have a vetta II. They really do anything you want , and more. You do get comments like" oh , it's a line 6... change that for a mesa" from time to time, but it sounds great , and just try to find with another amp with direct outs , tuner , wah , 64 user saved patches, etc... all of which are usable live.

My other guitar player uses a Vetta (upgraded to the 2.whatever software) and it sounds great direct into the PA. I use a tube amp and the 2 different (but both pleasing) tones mix well and sound balanced and full together. It took him a long time to work out the Vetta tones, but now they are dialed in and sound sweet. .............I still like my tone better, but that's just me.

[6StringSling]

You know, if we're going to take an attitude of "the audience won't know and/or doesn't care" when it comes to tone and/or skill, then why bother with practices and rehearsals to get tight & right?

 

The public is so used to the {censored}ty quality of compressed music that studios are starting not to care either and are spending less time and money mastering tracks - ask sound engineers that have been around for a couple of decades about today's quality standards.

 

I personally cannot get with the "who cares, it's good enough" way of doing things; I find that in the long run, it stifles creativity and advancements.

[Lee Flier]

He's right, and he's wrong. Although we're probably not aware of it, I would think most of us go through 20 or more tones a night, we just don't need a modeler to do it.

 

 

I know that's the case for me. This is especially true if you have a guitar with P90's - they are the most sensitive, responsive pickups on the planet IMO. They can sound completely different with different fingering... as well as through different amps, etc.

 

I've had people mistake my LP with P90's for a Strat, and also for a humbucker LP, depending what I do with it. I love varied and subtle changes in tone probably moreso than the not so subtle changes, so it works for me.

[GCDEF]

 

You know, if we're going to take an attitude of "the audience won't know and/or doesn't care" when it comes to tone and/or skill, then why bother with practices and rehearsals to get tight & right?

 

 

Nobody said that. Skill, tone and tight are all important. What's being said is that for the most part, the audience won't know or care if you're playing an SG or a Les Paul, if your tube screamer has analogman or Kealey mods.

 

Non-musical audiences know in tune or out of tune, smooth or harsh, tight or not tight, energetic or lackadaisical. Nobody is going to walk out because the guy's playing a Roland JC instead of a modeler or he only uses 17 of his 20 required sounds unless something else bad is going on.

[Lee Flier]

 

Nobody said that. Skill, tone and tight are all important. What's being said is that for the most part, the audience won't know or care if you're playing an SG or a Les Paul, if your tube screamer has analogman or Kealey mods.

 

 

No, of course they won't. But they WILL know if YOU aren't inspired by what you're using, even if they don't consciously know why. If you choose the gear you use because you're too lazy to use what really inspires you, taking the attitude that "the audience won't know the difference," they WILL know the difference. That attitude betrays a contempt for the audience and a lack of caring about your own craft - and if you don't care about it you can hardly expect anyone else to.

 

Play whatever gear gets YOU off - even if it's a pain in the butt to find it, bring it to the gig and set it up. The audience won't know what gear you're using but they will know the joy in your performance when you've got everything dialed in. And when you're using the right rig, you don't care that it might've been a pain to set up - it feels too good when you start playing to compromise.

[doubleR]

I know that's the case for me. This is especially true if you have a guitar with P90's - they are the most sensitive, responsive pickups on the planet IMO. They can sound completely different with different fingering... as well as through different amps, etc. I've had people mistake my LP with P90's for a Strat, and also for a humbucker LP, depending what I do with it. I love varied and subtle changes in tone probably moreso than the not so subtle changes, so it works for me.

You are very wise, grasshopper.

[Lee Flier]

LOL yeah....

 

 

 

Well just to illustrate my point... here are 3 different tracks of me playing the same guitar (the '52 LP) thru 3 different amps. They are all combos, none of them have separate clean/dirty channels, and I'm using no pedals.

 

Reverend Goblin

 

Ampeg VT-40 (lead parts)

 

Blackface Fender Pro Reverb

[doubleR]

LOL yeah.... Well just to illustrate my point... here are 3 different tracks of me playing the same guitar (the '52 LP) thru 3 different amps. They are all combos, none of them have separate clean/dirty channels, and I'm using no pedals. Reverend Goblin Ampeg VT-40 (lead parts) Blackface Fender Pro Reverb

I literally spent years trying out different guitar and amp combinations trying to get the tones I was after.

The day I picked up that LP Special in the photo of me, the search was over. I run it through a Peavey Classic 30, and have a Boss ME-30 effects board (which I sparingly for a few songs that I want a chorus or phase or echo effect). My other guitars now gather dust in their cases......

[MusicalSchizo]

I know that's the case for me. This is especially true if you have a guitar with P90's - they are the most sensitive, responsive pickups on the planet IMO. They can sound completely different with different fingering... as well as through different amps, etc. I've had people mistake my LP with P90's for a Strat, and also for a humbucker LP, depending what I do with it. I love varied and subtle changes in tone probably moreso than the not so subtle changes, so it works for me.

 

 

I LOVE P90s. I also love my modelers.

 

Most people that have heard me play live haven't been able to tell I even use modelers because I always treat them like amps first. I've had nothing but compliments on my tones live from people (including MANY musicians), and they're almost always shocked when they see that I'm just using a POD (or my Vetta).

 

It's all in having good ears, patience, a good PA system, and knowledge of how to get truly musical tones out of anything. The key is finding the most responsive models on whatever modeler you're using, and start with those to get your tones...they usually give the most "realistic" experience, in terms of tactile response.

 

Running the modelers through a clean power amp and a speaker cab is fine, and can improve the tone in the sense that it's much more like a "regular" guitar playing experience, with a speaker response that is "familiar". That approach works for a lot of people. Ty Tabor from King's X was a notable user of this particular method in the early 2000s - I was at a few of those shows, and his live tone always RULED - POD Pros through Mesa power amps and cabinets.

 

I find that just making sure you always have a good powered full-range monitor on hand (keyboard amps work, too) to amplify your sound and (this is important) making sure you always tweak your sounds at volume can make all the difference in getting a "real" tone from a modeler or not.

 

I will say that I only use about 12 patches live - and really, on my Vetta, it's pretty much just five or six max (though I have stomp boxes assigned for different textures, lead boosts, etc.).

 

In my last guitar-gigging band (I mostly play bass now), my Vetta patches consisted of:

1. A Hi-Watt model for medium, touchy crunch sounds (lighten the touch and it's clean, lay into it and it is a nice distortion) with a Tube Driver stomp model for more crunch and other song-specific effects box models available.

2. A Vox AC30 model for jangly cleans

3. A Marshall JCM2000 model for higher-gain rhythm parts and some leads (though I later changed to the JCM800 model because it improved significantly with the 2.5 update of the software)

4. A direct patch for running my Variax "acoustically"

5. A hybrid Fender clean patch (Vibroverb model mixed with Bassman) for warmer cleans.

6. My favorite Vetta Model - the Line 6 Sparkle (not Super Sparkle and not Sparkle Clean), which basically I could use all by itself for everything it sounded so damn good...I had the same Tube Driver model stomp on it for thicker distortion, but it was a very touch-responsive model.

 

Sorry to go off on a tangent there...but my point is, if it works, it works.

 

If you are inspired by your tone and people like it out front, you can't lose.

 

No matter what path you take to get there, if you get there, it doesn't matter.

 

Brian V.

[germs]

I run a GT-6 into a solid state 2x12 combo with no problems at all. Granted, I use the JB/Jazz p/u combo as first choice, and that has a lot to do with it. From there, we mic straight into an assigned channel in the board using the tried-and-true SM57. However, one band I play in is all covers, and we play approximately 4 hrs. a night.

I find that through it all, there are some specific patches that I use to get special tones (i.e. Audioslave, Breaking Benjamin) that require effects heavy parts. That's the long and short of it. Yes, a vast majority of songs are simply "clean-dirty repeat..." but the ability to accurately and consistently pull up tones on demand is a luxury I've become used to.

So, if you're like me (inherently lazy), go ahead and get a good modeler. You'll have more time to relax, drink, smoke, talk to chicks, whatever.

[crossways]

Also, like Lee said, a modeller won't make a single coil sound like a humbucker. They don't even claim to do that, for that matter.

Well not exactly... The Boss ME-50 has a switch on it that is basically an eq that "claims" to make the tone go from humbucker to Single coil or vice versa.

I won't argue whether it does what it claims, however!

I am wondering if a coil tap would be enough to get the umph for the overdrive he wants. My Carvin AE-185 has Humbuckers with the coil splitter. I get a wide range of tones from that guitar alone.

Though I do like my ME-50, but generally use it sparingly