Gigs/Payment... What's fair?

[Mr. Smiley Face]

Hey, I have a few questions that hopefully some of you guys can help out with.

 

So basically there's a good handful of local bands (these are all younger bands, no touring acts or anything) that sometimes play shows together. Anyways, I play in probably the band that has about the biggest draw.

 

To make a long story short, there's a venue that is real cheap to rent out for the night. So one of the 'smaller' bands decided to host a show there (they're organizing it and have themselves as the headliner). That's fine, even though they'd have a smaller draw then the other bands.

 

However, I've found out that 'most' of the proceeds are going to this smaller band to buy them new equipment and such. We'll still get paid, but from what I understand it's going to be VERY minimal. So basically we'll be bringing most of the draw, only to the other band's benefit. Is this fair? How should I approach this situation? Thoughts?

 

Sorry, It's a bit of a rant I know, but I'd like your opinions as well.

[deepblue]

Nothing wrong with declining their invitation. Just book a real gig for real pay and help yourselves instead of them. Fact is they're the host, they're putting it all together, they're accepting all the liability and risk involved in such a venture, they're calling the shots. If the terms are unacceptable, decline. Who cares what they spend their money on?

 

Welcome the music biz.

[ggm1960]

Don't play the gig.

[Austincowbell]

Say that you're happy to play a gig where bands are paid per draw or split the overall proceeds evenly but otherwise you'll have to respectfully decline.

[Mr. Smiley Face]

Thanks for the input,

 

I understand where you guys are coming from but where the situation gets a bit sticky is the fact that I know them all personally and we have played many shows with them and hopefully will play more to come. While I don't think it's fair what they're doing, I'm not sure if it's the best course of action to refuse to play. Thoughts?

[Mr. Smiley Face]

 

Say that you're happy to play a gig where bands are paid per draw or split the overall proceeds evenly but otherwise you'll have to respectfully decline.

 

 

How is it that bands are paid per draw? How is it determined how big each bands draw is? Thanks

[SpaceNorman]

 

Nothing wrong with declining their invitation. Just book a real gig for real pay and help yourselves instead of them. Fact is they're the host, they're putting it all together, they're accepting all the liability and risk involved in such a venture, they're calling the shots. If the terms are unacceptable, decline. Who cares what they spend their money on? Welcome the music biz.

 

 

...and THAT is the bottom line! Deepblue is dead nutz on with his assessment.

[wades_keys]

 

How is it that bands are paid per draw? How is it determined how big each bands draw is? Thanks

 

 

It's determined by your confidence and skill in negotiating.

 

If you know with relative certainty that you can draw x amount of people, then that's how you negotiate your deal - from a position of strength and certainty.

 

Don't be shy - step up to the plate.

 

Take control of the process - your strength is your draw, so put that on the table.

 

Ask yourself how an inferior band (based on their draw) has managed to "host" an event.

 

Chances are the answer is that they are more confident and adept at negotiating than you are; at the very least, they are more proactive.

 

Don't wait for opportunities to come to you - be proactive and create your own opportunities.

 

If you have the draw that you say you have, then YOU should be hosting such an event.

 

Find out how, and go do it.

[capitalist]

I agree with DeepBlue. Negotiate a minimum amount that the "headliner" band will pay or split with your band. Say 60% for the headliner and 40% for your band or $50.00 per member, etc. Don't agree to play or play a note until you get this settled with the headliner.

[wades_keys]

I agree with DeepBlue. Negotiate a minimum amount that the "headliner" band will pay or split with your band. Say 60% for the headliner and 40% for your band or $50.00 per member, etc. Don't agree to play or play a note until you get this settled with the headliner.

To me I think the bigger issue is they aren't seeking these opportunities themselves.

 

It seems that this headliner band has some savvy to put together this event themselves, wouldn't you agree?

 

If the hall is for rent, they can rent it too.

[Mr. Smiley Face]

Yes I agree completely. We were originally planning on waiting until our ep is out and hold one as a release party of some sort.

[tim_7string]

Sounds like a screwjob to me, if your band would, in fact, bring in most of the crowd but you'd be basically playing for free.

 

Why not organize your own show? Then you can reap the rewards.

[Austincowbell]

 

How is it that bands are paid per draw? How is it determined how big each bands draw is? Thanks

each band has X number of tickets and sells them. Tickets are counted at the end of the night. But really... this is just a polite way of telling them "No"

 

-we got offered a private party where they would pay us in trade: massages. I said "no".

[Alex_SF]

 

I understand where you guys are coming from but where the situation gets a bit sticky is the fact that I know them all personally and we have played many shows with them and hopefully will play more to come. While I don't think it's fair what they're doing, I'm not sure if it's the best course of action to refuse to play. Thoughts?

 

 

Is this a gig you've already agreed to do and now want to back out? That could get sticky. Maybe take it as a learning experience and remember to get all details including monetary nailed down in advance, preferably in writing (a confirmation e-mail will do), in the future before taking the gig.

 

But if you're not commited to it yet, then you need to have the backbone to insist they make it worth y'all's while. In the music business, someone in your band or associated with your band has to be able to play the role of the hardass. You don't have to be Peter Grant -- there are ways of being firm and standing up for yourself without being an asshole or burning bridges -- but if someone can't be that guy, club owners and others will end up walking all over you down the road.

[axeman25]

If you already agreed to play for "x" amount, then I would play it. It sounds like (from your post) that you want to continue playing gigs with this band. They are using the money that you make them to buy some new gear, so what. The bars you play use the money they make to buy more alcohol and such.

 

I think it would be a cheap shot to have already agreed to play the gig for a certain amount and then try to weasle more money when you discover that they are reaping the benifits.

 

If your not already commited to it, then you have room to work with what you expect for pay. Then again, helping out a fellow band is not a bad thing (usually).

[kl285528]

 

each band has X number of tickets and sells them. Tickets are counted at the end of the night. But really... this is just a polite way of telling them "No" -we got offered a private party where they would pay us in trade: massages. I said "no".

 

 

Please forward their contact info to me immediately!!!!! LOL

[Austincowbell]

missed the part about agreeing to do the show. If you already agreed to play it, you can NOT back out. No matter the circumstances if you agree to play a show you are bound to do so. At this point it could be a matter of your band's reputation and you do NOT want someone saying "they backed out because they decided that they deserved more than the agreed upon amount" and being factually correct in doing so.

[davidM]

business and friendships don't mix in the music business. I know that its hard to accept that, but the fact is your friends are taking advantage of you if they aren't willing to give you fair pay after proceeds are counted. There is nothing wrong with them getting a little more then the other bands, because they have done all the leg work to get the show going, but if they are racking in 500 bucks and you only get 50, you got screwed.

 

Your friends may not even realize that they are being unfair to you. Perhaps approach it with opens hands, and say, "ya know guys, its kind of unfair that my band will be bringing in most of the people, and you are going to take the majority of the proceeds."

 

If they get offended, then they are screwing you,

 

if they are your friends, and value your friendship they'll work something out.

 

Good luck, I used to book these kinds of things all the time, and it is sticky, but you just have to cut through all the crap, and get to the point. Your band deserves a fair cut, because you are offering something the show needs, the draw you can bring.

[BlueHeaven]

I've been the smaller band who organized, setup and provided everything and had a bigger band headline. While we paid the other band, we took a larger chunk, simply because we did all the leg work and prep, provided all the sound, staging etc.

 

It sounds pretty fair to me. If they are doing all the leg work on top of taking all the risk if turn out sucks and they will lose money, they should be getting the larger share. I don't know your exact situation or percentage or set price you agreed on, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the hosting band taking a bigger share at their own organized event than the headliner.

[chevybusa]

 

business and friendships don't mix in the music business. I know that its hard to accept that, but the fact is your friends are taking advantage of you if they aren't willing to give you fair pay after proceeds are counted. There is nothing wrong with them getting a little more then the other bands, because they have done all the leg work to get the show going, but if they are racking in 500 bucks and you only get 50, you got screwed. Your friends may not even realize that they are being unfair to you. Perhaps approach it with opens hands, and say, "ya know guys, its kind of unfair that my band will be bringing in most of the people, and you are going to take the majority of the proceeds." If they get offended, then they are screwing you, if they are your friends, and value your friendship they'll work something out. Good luck, I used to book these kinds of things all the time, and it is sticky, but you just have to cut through all the crap, and get to the point. Your band deserves a fair cut, because you are offering something the show needs, the draw you can bring.

 

 

 

+1,000,000!!! Absolutely spot on. I feel your pain Mr. Smiley Face...it's a very difficult situation to be in when you are friends. I guess how you handle it all depends on the exact circumstances of how everything came about and the true intentions of the band at the center of the issue. I've gotta be honest, it's always good to have compassion (unless you're getting screwed, obviously) but that's something I've never had when it comes to dealing with other musicians...On several occasions years ago I was approached about doing gigs similar to the one you're describing, as well as several BLATANT "benefit" gigs, and every time I got mad that I was even asked. The way I looked at it, besides the fact that no one EVER helped out or handed anything to me or any band I was ever in, I was struggling just as much (if not worse!) than the bands that I was being asked to help out...it really got me heated. Oh well. Good luck, hope it all works out...

[sabriel9v]

 

However, I've found out that 'most' of the proceeds are going to this smaller band to buy them new equipment and such. We'll still get paid, but from what I understand it's going to be VERY minimal. So basically we'll be bringing most of the draw, only to the other band's benefit. Is this fair? How should I approach this situation? Thoughts?

 

 

My first question, do you really need the money? If so, don't play the gig. You could easily set something up at this same venue, draw in more people and reap all the benefits. If you really don't need the money, just play the gig and move on. It's free exposure and the best part is you lack accountability for 90-95% of the bs that could potentially come about.

[Sypher13]

 

How is it that bands are paid per draw? How is it determined how big each bands draw is? Thanks

 

 

have the door man ask who everyone is coming to see, he keeps a tally, whichever band has the most tallys gets teh most money. pretty easy

[keithtoxic]

business and friendships don't mix in the music business. I know that its hard to accept that, but the fact is your friends are taking advantage of you if they aren't willing to give you fair pay after proceeds are counted. There is nothing wrong with them getting a little more then the other bands, because they have done all the leg work to get the show going, but if they are racking in 500 bucks and you only get 50, you got screwed. Your friends may not even realize that they are being unfair to you. Perhaps approach it with opens hands, and say, "ya know guys, its kind of unfair that my band will be bringing in most of the people, and you are going to take the majority of the proceeds." If they get offended, then they are screwing you, if they are your friends, and value your friendship they'll work something out. Good luck, I used to book these kinds of things all the time, and it is sticky, but you just have to cut through all the crap, and get to the point. Your band deserves a fair cut, because you are offering something the show needs, the draw you can bring.

 

Aren't friendships and "who you know" one of the strongest weapons you have in the music busienss

[stanfic]

If your band is drawing the majority of the crowd, sell lots of merch. That would be your own way to still make money at the gig, without always having to rely on your cut from the door money, or whatever.

 

Then the portioning should be right as well, the more people, the more is made at the door, and the more the host band gets. BUT, the more people that are there for you, the more merch you sell, and the more you make, in addition to your cut from the door.

 

So, if you don't have merch, GET SOME. Even if it's just 20 Cds/Demos at $10/$5 a pop. That's $200/$100 right there.

 

Or you could make shirts. Pick a super cool design, buy about 5 shirts in each size, and sencil them with spray paint. You could even get creative with an exact-o knife, and put "new wear" on the shirts in the shoulder and lower sides by making small holes, and stretching them to about a cm in diamater with your finger (which also rolles the edges of the holes, making it harder for the holes to continue growing).

 

So, anyway, play the gig.

[boxorox]

It's not that unfair soundng to me. They line up the venue, lights, sound, techs, talent, security, concessions, promotion, publicity, taxes, insurance. They pay out of pocket for deposits and contractually obligate themselves to pay for sevices regardless of the outcome. They take the risk that the show might tank due to weather, a spike in gas prices, other available entertainment. And they play a show. As said before, if you accepted already, play the job. You don't want to look like curmudgeons. If not, and for the future, evaluate it as any other job. Do the benefits to the band justify the time and effort? Consider intangibles as well. Bankable good will of other bands, a chance to make stronger contacts in your musical community or expand your fan base. And fun. Playing for fans and other musicians can be more satisfying than playing for a bar owner. Whatever you decide, have fun.