lead singer still using music stand after over a year.

[josh3111]

Our lead singer uses a music stand. It annoys the {censored} out of me. I take all the time to learn guitar tabs and he just reads from the damn sheet. He is just lazy. I can't even get him to play a rhythm on an acoustic guitar that is four freaking chords. If he was an amazing singer, I don't think I would care about the stand as much. But he is just mediocre so I feel like he isn't doing his part to make the show more entertaining. Anyways, you guys are right, I think it is amateur bull{censored} laziness.

[Austincowbell]

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that it is a complete gender reversal of a very common band situation:

 

often times the guitarist or manager or drummer or SOMEONE has a chick who they are trying to bang or married to wants to sing and all of a sudden the rest of the band has to deal with the issue. I think this is the first time I've seen a man in that role.

 

I would take it up with the manager. Just be honest and cite the lack of showmanship involved with a music stand.

[Johnny_1Nut]

^ Only problem with that is the manager's biased...i.e. she's the dude's wife.

I've, once again somehow, had similar circumstances. I agree with a lot that's been said, but don't take it up with the...'manager'. That's just looking for trouble. See if you can ween him off the stand, but again, as it's been said already that's the least of your problems.

Are you good friends? Any singers on your local CL looking for work?

[Bajazz]

1. Music stand is lame. period. No excuse.
2. Harmonizer is lame. period. No excuse.
3. Forgetting to insert fresh batteries is lame. period. No excuse.
4. Not warming up is lame (unless you don't need it). period. No Excuse

Show your singer this:
----------------------

A real singer knows all lyrics inside out. He can sing any song at any time during the show. A real singer don't rely on any effects, only a good mic. A real singer checks his own gear before soundcheck and before going on stage. If he struggle with these issues, he need to work with them at once. He need to sing all songs 1000 times so he know them all by heart. He needs to sell his harmonizer. The only technique he need is vocal technique. He needs to make himself a checklist that he can tape to his mic case or something.
A vocalist job is to sing the songs, but also work the crowd and be the communication channel from the band to the audience.To be able to flirt and joke and fool around. When on stage it should look as this is THE place he belongs.
If he slouch over a music stand, pushing buttons on gear in front of him and things he can make ok as background music.

[wades_keys]

you got a whole bunch of issues. On the music stand issue, I've got a new perspective on them. For most bands, a music stand on stage is lame and amateur. I was at a party at a piano bar a few weeks back, and they happened to have a 5 piece band playing that night. There were FIVE music stands on stage, with little LED lights so they could see them. They'd played well, and the didn't spend the whole night staring at them. I asked a couple people around what they thought about the music stands. The response I got was "what music stands?" Basically, except for musicians, who expect a band to memorize their parts, nobody else cares or notices. They are there to party, and the band is the human jukebox.

A piano bar is a totally different scene from a rock band up on a stage.

Believe me, the crowd does notice the music stands.

More accurately, they notice that the frontman is not engaging them and inviting them to be a part of the show. In other words, such bands wind up not reaching out and involving the crowd, and wind up becoming the human jukebox you talk about.

Trust me, I know this from firsthand experience.

[coyote-1]

I'll try to keep that in mind next time I see my local philharmonic orchestra perform, or next time Wynton's heritage jazz ensemble comes to town

:poke:

Our lead singer uses a music stand. It annoys the {censored} out of me. I take all the time to learn guitar tabs... I think it is amateur bull{censored} laziness.

You're "learn(ing) guitar tabs" and you have the nerve to accuse someone else of LAZINESS?!?

How FASCINATING.

[pickinatit]

There are music stands & there are music stands. I used to play in a group that had a long stand (long enough for the four piece horn section to stand behind) that had the band name and logo on it, artistically done. It looked more like a sign then a music stand. The bass player and myself (guitar) each had a smaller version of it with just a logo on it. I doubt most people even realized that they WERE music stands. No one ever mentioned it to me; not audience, not other musicians....nobody. I never knew it was even a potential issue until I joined this forum.

If you are talking plain old fold up, steel music stands that's a little different.
I think that would bother me as both a participating band member OR an audience member.

Was watching an Elvis retrospective (mostly of his Vegas comeback tour back in the ??early seventies?? The were going to play "Burning Love" live for the first time ever. Elvis held a sheet of paper with the lyrics in his hand & read off of it while he sang. I know he was the King and could therefore get away with stuff that others couldn't......just saying.

[wades_keys]

You're "learn(ing) guitar tabs" and you have the nerve to accuse someone else of LAZINESS?!?

 

But he's actually got a point.

 

The tab is "scripted" out - all parts.

 

So are lyric sheets, which I bet are also downloaded from the Internet.

 

So if the guitarist can memorize his part, why can't the vocalist?

[Johnny_1Nut]

It's one thing to use tabs to learn a song,...AT HOME.

It's a whole other ball park to be using a music stand on stage. No beuno.

[Austincowbell]

Everyone has their own view of what a frontman of a band does. I can't imagine Robert Plant or Axel Rose singing lyrics off of a music stand onstage. Its a concert, not a symposium.

[Kramerguy]

I'll try to keep that in mind next time I see my local philharmonic orchestra perform, or next time Wynton's heritage jazz ensemble comes to town :poke: You're "learn(ing) guitar tabs" and you have the nerve to accuse someone else of LAZINESS?!? How FASCINATING.

I learn mostly by ear, simply because most tabs online are dead wrong.

However, are you saying there's laziness involved because the singer doesn't listen to the song and learn the vocals word for word? Tabs and vocals just help you to assimilate faster. You won't memorize it any faster though, quite the opposite IMO, tabs and printed words just end up being used as a crutch.

[herbie d]

our lead singer is still using lyrics with a music stand(full size) and it's been over a year for 90% of these classic rock cover tunes... tunes he put in the list. We get to the gig and he has replaced set 1 with set 3 because he needs to let his voice "warm" up....nope ,no way he can jump right into that...no word of this at practice of course ,so lights and sound are planned around the original set list. His wireless mic he plugs into a effect unit newly copped from ebay which he puts on milk crates in the front of the stage right next to the music stand.....it hums so loud thru the pa it has too be jettisoned.... then says we can't do songs that required his "harmonizer" even though drummer and I sing perfectly good harmonies... when I pressed him about the set list and why we could just change the first tune....he says all of his lyric sheets are in the order he has changed to his new setlist.... We are still trying to clear these ancient songs no one groove's to(I'm 18 anyone)and replace them with better stuff....and he suggests that song from "that thing that your do". I'm like oh yeah sweet emotion right into the "tom hanks" tune.(in my head, of course) Me and the other g player joined this band I don't think they played to much of a crowd... We've brought a completely different vibe and this guy is ; well I think it's his first project where there's an audience. I'm also having a hard time with trying to stop him from singing during solo's and forgetting to sing verses...then when I pick up singing it he jumps in on top of me.... He has no high range in his voice but insist on singing zepplin,billy squier,etc.. He's not a guy who can stand aside an let someone else in the band sing more than 1 song.... I like guy and he can sing most of the stuff ok, but he's got no clue on what songs to do,how to arrange a setlist etc. His wife is the manager of the band, so if he needs advice on how this or that song sounds in practice, he say his wife says this song good(his)this song not good(ours). The band just had the best gig it's had but it could of been ALOT better... I am fustrated with the situation,but I do like everyone involved. I hope I can find a solution.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I came back and looked at this thread. Let me hit the pro's and con's from my perspective. I am the singer in my band, but I am also the guitar player. This means I learn guitar parts and vocal parts. I generally retain the guitar parts easier than the vocal parts. The other guys are OK singers and can do harmonies fine, although they are sometimes inconsistent. I would never consider replacing them with a harmonize though. Hide the Harmonizer from him, or get someone to steal it. I would like to have one to screw around with at home. Tell me where it is... I'll steal it.
The set list... the singer has to be involved in the set list. The order of songs can't "only" come from what everyone thinks is good order for the show. I know if I do too many scream my ass off tunes in a row, I'll be trashed for the next scream my ass off tune. On my guitar... it doesn't matter. If I don't have an active part in the set sheet, my guys will kill me and not even realize they are. "I too have heard, if you can't do the songs in this order let us sing a few of them". I generally say that's fine, so don't take my tune, find one you can sing to add to the list that we can use instead of mine in that spot.
I think a stand up singer would have a fear of standing on the side, for 3/4 of the night, with his thumb up his a--, while everyone is taking over his singing.
Maybe "you" don't know how to arrange a set list with the singer in mind. He shouldn't wait till the gig to change the set list either. If he has already arranged his sheets in an order, he should have shared that order with you, before hand. Him not doing that is BS.
As far as warming up. Usually on my gigs, I'm in there setting up with everyone, we do a sound check, a very short pause then we play. I never have the chance to warm up. I could do it in the van on the way, but its kind of intimidating with everyone there to hear.
In that little section about his wife, the manager, and "his" songs, and "ours" tells me, the band is not one unit. You got,"him" and "us". I don't know if its an age thing, a talent thing, or a music direction thing, but if he can't be part of the,"us". You need to be playing with someone else.

[Fendercaster]

I played a couple jobs on Maryland's eastern shore years ago with a friend. He couldn't remember lyrics, so he had the dreaded music stand right next to him. What's worse, he didn't have a set list and would waste two minutes thumbing through his folder looking for the words to whatever song he picked to do next. I would get so agitated I'd just kick off a tune that I sing, just to keep things moving.

Learning the lyrics should be the first priority for any singer! You could tell that my friend was reading the words, there was no emotion in his singing at all.

[jacksplatz]

I've thought about it from alot of different angles.
I too used to be the lead singer and play guitar in my
prior band.
I was never too embarrased or felt awkward cranking
the radio a bit a warming up the pips along with the tune.
The tunes in order were:
first 3.
Sweet emotion
Double Vision
Hard to Handle

Like I said in my post,we rehearsed the set list 3 total
practices.Never a peep then.zilch.This is the setlist for the gig.
Any problems?.........crickets.......crickets.....
How can you be any better than that?
We got stuck opening to a packed house w/bad case of loving you.
thank you very much.
I never had a music stand when I was lead vox and guitarist.
reps over and over again,until I could sing and play the entire show
in the dark.
Sure it's another hour a day but it pays off.
As far as not having a chance to warm up...
proper warm up exercises can be done in minutes.
You just have to go and do it.Like tuning,etc.

Perhaps I'm wrong.After over a year!!! I would expect that all this
would be worked out???

Your first set at a packed house better come out swinging or you'll
have all the time in the world to warm up those cords at home.

How about singing over solo's(the same song,again and again)'
How about forgetting to sing at all?
How about you come in and then realizing his mistake for the millionth
time....proceeds to "take over for you"
As a professional you just don't come blaring back in!!!!
You at least wait until the end of the verse!Every time.
We've even tried to get him to give up just the higher parts
in songs....no

I don't think he had ever tried the vox unit at real gig before....(nice)
it was from the early 90's in a little rack unit. He set it on top of 2..
Milk crates into the dance floor....???
When it hummed and could'nt be used he had a "deer in the headlights look".

We don't have the time to fix this stuff suttle like...
we have a major gig in the city on feb 28.
we can't have this stuff happen then.


I guess I am expecting a certain level of competence.
When your 18 you don't know {censored},but nearly 40...

I think you guys are alot like me...I really have'nt said alot about this.
We've been suttle about this stuff.
I was noticebly upset about the list at the gig,but I let it go.
But things are starting to gather up.
I don't want to be a dick,but I also don't want any performance
I'm involved in to be half of what it could be.
It's like the whole band relying on 1 9v battery.
It does'nt have to be that way.

[Zon5string]

So...getting back to the original point....

I don't think the music stand is the real problem. The OP said that the guy CAN sing (most of the stuff).

Have you ever recorded a gig or rehearsal? You can point out (without any bias or "he said she said") any problems that way. I recently did this with one of my bands....on some songs I sing. I have a pretty good idea of what I can and can't sing. Nobody ever said anything at practice, but when I listened back, I was BUTCHERING one song, so I pulled it from our repertoire. The rest were OK. Recordings don't lie.*





*unless they're quantized, auto-tuned, cut-and-pasted, ProTools-bastardized

[josh3111]

I'll try to keep that in mind next time I see my local philharmonic orchestra perform, or next time Wynton's heritage jazz ensemble comes to town :poke: You're "learn(ing) guitar tabs" and you have the nerve to accuse someone else of LAZINESS?!? How FASCINATING.

It is laziness. After playing ten shows I feel he should have them memorized by now. Yeah I use tabs sometimes at practice to get the song right, but NEVER ABSOLUTELY NEVER during a show. It is not that hard to memorize songs. I only sing three songs in my band since I play guitar, but if vocals were my only job I would be sure to have ALL of them memorized.

[Lee Knight]

Hmm.

OK, the OP is a laundry list of things he doesn't like about the singer.
1
2
3
4
5...

I'm seeing this a lot. He doesn't... and then he...

My advice, I realize, is sometimes unwelcome around here due to my impatient demeanor, but I'll risk it.

Play with people you want to play with.

Why does everybody bitch about their band members? If they're not up to snuff, find people you share a goal and vision with and play with them.

Which brings me to the next point. Are you not good enough to find people more to your liking? Are you not good enough to attract the top talent in your area for your experience level?

No? Then why isn't the post about how you can get better?

[coyote-1]

Because the guitarist is playing the same set of chords under each verse in a given song, and those verses probably don't vary wildly from song to song to song. There are only so many formulas that work in pop, and bar bands usually use only a small subset of them. Meanwhile, the lyric content CAN vary wildly.

So if the guitarist can memorize his part, why can't the vocalist?

If you're doing ONE set, perhaps the criticism is valid. But a typical bar band plays 3-4 sets per gig, with lots of songs "in-pocket" for requests. That's a helluva lot of lyric to memorize.

Back to my other point: Someone using tabs to learn songs has NO business criticizing the professionalism of any other musician EVER.

[jacksplatz]

Point taken...but this is here and now,not some well just" play with people you like deal"
I'd say that's an oversimplification of the situation.
You see if you would have read my op clearly....you would have seen that I like everyone involved,and want to play with this guy,but his lack of professionalism is making it a chore.

"Are you not good enough to find people more to your liking? Are you not good enough to attract the top talent in your area for your experience level?

No? Then why isn't the post about how you can get better? "



You see...when you put in alot of work w/the same people....and over a period of time you find out at the crucial moments
that they need a "crutch" to perform...


having problems w/singer...fire him at once or you suck because you obviously can't get anyone better....nice
great post

[wades_keys]

Back to my other point: Someone using tabs to learn songs has NO business criticizing the professionalism of any other musician EVER.

Hard to argue with that one - I've seen too many people paint themselves into corners musically with tabs.

[rhat]

you got a whole bunch of issues. On the music stand issue, I've got a new perspective on them. For most bands, a music stand on stage is lame and amateur. I was at a party at a piano bar a few weeks back, and they happened to have a 5 piece band playing that night. There were FIVE music stands on stage, with little LED lights so they could see them. They'd played well, and the didn't spend the whole night staring at them. I asked a couple people around what they thought about the music stands. The response I got was "what music stands?" Basically, except for musicians, who expect a band to memorize their parts, nobody else cares or notices. They are there to party, and the band is the human jukebox.

 

 

 

 

Good observation. the slickest thing i saw a band do was to make a small square banner and they hung it off the music stand. It had their band name on it. It looked good on stage. A stage set up is visual , the idea to come up with visually pleasing way to hide the stand was slick. They are an acoustic duo.

[josh3111]

Yeah I know not all tabs are right but a lot of them are right. I am sorry but
I haven't been playing the guitar for the past ten years, so it is still hard for me to pick out chords and SOLOS with my ear, without having some idea where to start....you can make fun of me for using tabs but..I am not the one on stage with the damn stand.

[wades_keys]

Good observation. the slickest thing i saw a band do was to make a small square banner and they hung it off the music stand. It had their band name on it. It looked good on stage. A stage set up is visual , the idea to come up with visually pleasing way to hide the stand was slick. They are an acoustic duo.

 

That is slick.

[wades_keys]

Yeah I know not all tabs are right but a lot of them are right. I am sorry but I haven't been playing the guitar for the past ten years, so it is still hard for me to pick out chords and SOLOS with my ear, without having some idea where to start....you can make fun of me for using tabs but..I am not the one on stage with the damn stand.

Right.

 

If you can dude, spend some time in your practice routine and try this:

 

take a tab and convert it to notation. Just the note names will be fine for now. Write em down on a piece of paper.

 

Now, determine the key signature of the song. Write it down on the same paper.

 

Now, figure out which scale best fits the lick.

 

Spend some time with that scale and try to relate it's tones back to the major scale that is defined by the key signature.

 

Which tones are altered from the major scale, and how? (flat 3rd, etc)

 

Now take that knowledge and apply it back to your finger positions on the tab.

 

Then, try to do this exercise without paper.

 

Don't expect immediate results - set aside an hour a 2 a week and I bet you in a year or two, you'll be so far ahead in your fretboard and musical knowledge that you'll be the one writing tabs for everyone else.

 

And when you practice your major scale and modes, don't practice positions, practice scale tones.

 

Play the minor 3rd instead of the pattern is what I'm saying - think about the minor 3rd, recognize the pattern, and learn to apply that physical position to your thought "minor 3rd".

 

This way of thinking will help you think musically and not positionally - you'll learn what each scale tone can do and then you're able to summon that tone on the fly, rather than being stuck in some physical position or fingering (box).

 

This might sound a little wacky but give it a try man.

[josh3111]

Right. If you can dude, spend some time in your practice routine and try this: take a tab and convert it to notation. Just the note names will be fine for now. Write em down on a piece of paper. Now, determine the key signature of the song. Write it down on the same paper. Now, figure out which scale best fits the lick. Spend some time with that scale and try to relate it's tones back to the major scale that is defined by the key signature. Which tones are altered from the major scale, and how? (flat 3rd, etc) Now take that knowledge and apply it back to your finger positions on the tab. Then, try to do this exercise without paper. Don't expect immediate results - set aside an hour a 2 a week and I bet you in a year or two, you'll be so far ahead in your fretboard and musical knowledge that you'll be the one writing tabs for everyone else. And when you practice your major scale and modes, don't practice positions, practice scale tones. Play the minor 3rd instead of the pattern is what I'm saying - think about the minor 3rd, recognize the pattern, and learn to apply that physical position to your thought "minor 3rd". This way of thinking will help you think musically and not positionally - you'll learn what each scale tone can do and then you're able to summon that tone on the fly, rather than being stuck in some physical position or fingering (box). This might sound a little wacky but give it a try man.

How can you determine the key by using the notes? I have improvised using scales that work, but it is hard for me to determine what key the song is in....