Went "BWTB" last night

[Kramerguy]

Well.. not really. Didn't have a gig scheduled, so I went to a local bar that we're scheduled to play at next month... mostly to check out how the band handles the room, it's the most god-awful room to play in this sense:

 

It's a fairly large, maybe 60' x 30', with cathedral ceilings that are about 25' high, and every surface in the room is either wood, stone, or concrete. No carpet, no sound-proofing whatsoever. It's so echo-y that even between songs when someone talks into the mic it sounds warbled and almost like the old peanuts cartoons where the adults all said wah-wah-wah-wah.

 

So last night's band was struggling with the mix (as was the band last week, I worked the door for them), and last week, I talked to the owner about it and asked him if he had any plans to put up anything to soak the sound, and he actually blamed the bands, said they need to learn to control their volume... I told him that you can't exactly turn down an acoustic drum-set, but he stood on the claim that one or two bands in the past did sound good in there (maybe an acoustic act?).. so I started thinking on the best ways to attack that room so we don't sound like {censored} too.

 

Back to last night-

During the first set, I figured most of it out. The low end carries 2x harder than everything else in the mix. Both bands were literally drowning in bass guitar, as well as kick drum, low end on the electric guitar and especially the low end of the vocal mix. Both bands I saw used subs with their PA's.

 

So after the first set, the guitarist was at our table chatting with us, my friend knew him.. and I told him briefly about my experience with the room and also let him know (very politely and respectfully) that they were drowning in the bass.. the bass player was just WAY over everyone else in the mix, regardless of the room, but in that room, it was destroying them... he said 'yeah.. ok we will choke it back a little'

 

So they went up for their second set, and I guess their opinion was that they know better....

 

They actually turned the bass up, as if to spite me or something, haha. Yeah.. they showed me alright.

 

So much for trying to help lol. The drummer was the only one who seemed to be able to conquer that room, the rest of them just kept turning up and up. Vocals were drowned and indistinguishable, guitar was muddy, and the bass was conquering Rome with an iron fist.. the drums were at a reasonable volume, but got pretty drowned out.

 

So I think we're going to leave the subs at home, put only the vocals and kick through the PA, keep the vocals and kick at a mid-high eq, cut out the bottom end, and hope for the best.. Any suggestions on that type of room are welcomed.

[modulusman]

It is not the PAs fault. If the band keeps turning up then they deserve to sound like crap. One of the best ways to clean up a loud stage is use IEMs. Next to adding subs this was the smartest thing my band did to improve our sound.

[SunRaFan]

Dial back any reverbs or delays you are using in a room like this. The room is going to add plenty of reverb to everything.

[boxorox]

I am having a huge problem with this. As an acoustic band, we need to play with pick-ups because it's easier to get a consistant sound with good gain-before-fedback in any situation. Prob is some of the youngsters in the band believe they need dedicated amps onstage. The level of volume onstage makes us crank the mons to a point where they are no longer balanced, and as far as they can see, the solution is to crank it up. Good for them, bad for overall sound. Sound is like Silly-Putty. Go easy, you can cover everything. Hit it too hard, and it breaks.

[Consume]

I would say, rather than just leaving the subs at home, don't boost the low end on the kick drum, go for a different kind of kick sound, more of an "attack" or initial snap/punch" but just roll off the lows more. You still want some subs in there, it's just that normally people tend to boost the low end too much. The same for the bass, roll off some of it.

 

These days I've gotten to the point that I NEVER boost any of the EQ. I only use it for cutting . So if a kick needs more low end, I'll cut the mids and highs a bit.

[Kramerguy]

Thanks for the tips guys-

 

Just a few notes of mention..

last week.. I went and talked to the drummer after the first set, told him that he needs to take the mic off the snare and kill ALL the reverb on the vocals..

 

Little did I know, the vocals were dry and the only drum he mic'd was the kick, and he dialed it waaaay back. The room is just that bad.

 

I'm thinking of talking to the bar owner and seeing if he would let us come in one afternoon and do a full set up and work on conquering that room, figure I might try everything suggested here, as well as just trying random {censored} haha to see what sticks.

 

Not that I care THAT much about the upcoming gig, but the sound-man in me wants the experience for future reference.

[Rich4Once]

The only way to bring acoustic drums down below their normal volume level is with a drum shield. There's a place in Oregon where the entire room is wood, with a vaulted ceiling, and a large window directly across from the stage. This place was as reflective as a mirror.

 

Nothing we could do volume-wise was working...the owner was in the middle of the dance floor, right under that vaulted ceiling, holding a dB meter and shaking his head at us. The snare was 110dB by itself, with no PA help. Oregon has (had) a sound level ordinance, so we had to figure out a way to get to the specified level...I don't recall what it was, maybe 90 or 100. Anyway, we ended up at the local home improvement center, where we bought three sheets of plexi, some hinges and some screws. We went back to the hotel and got to work, making a shield to place around the drum kit.

 

It was very effective, and got our levels down enough that the owner was smiling when he came out to check dB levels at showtime.

[rorylawford]

 

...the owner was in the middle of the dance floor, right under that vaulted ceiling, holding a dB meter and shaking his head at us. The snare was 110dB by itself, with no PA help. Oregon has (had) a sound level ordinance...

 

 

Wow, really? A legal limit to volume? Owners with db meters? Wow.

[Rich4Once]

 

Wow, really? A legal limit to volume? Owners with db meters? Wow.

 

 

That may be the norm for you, judging by the sarcastic tone of your post, but we'd never run into that before or since, and we played all over the country. We've had dickhead bar owners before, but that dB meter was new to us. We asked around and found out that some of the other local bands had often replaced the guy's batteries with dead ones trying to get around it.

 

I'm no longer a road dog, so I just play around here in Lincoln, and we have nothing like that in any of our live music venues. The most that would happen is that you might be asked to turn it down a little bit if the staff can't take drink orders. In order for that to happen, you'd have to *really* be blasting, though.

[Hegmatronicon]

 

Wow, really? A legal limit to volume? Owners with db meters? Wow.

 

 

We have a few bars that have those and use them. Altho there IS a legal limit for volume. It's not usually enforced unless there are complaints (from nearby residents - not pub go-ers). Being enforded a LOT nowdays - it seems that nightlife and drinking are becoming increasingly unacceptable here. And it sucks.

[Consume]

Wow, really? A legal limit to volume? Owners with db meters? Wow.

 

LOL

 

Yeah we had a bar owner who used to do that, and "somebody" put a piece of tape over the microphone end of her Radio Shack dB meter.

I wonder who could have done that?

 

What was funny is the police would periodically come in, look at the reading on the meter, and then leave.

 

[rorylawford]

 

That may be the norm for you, judging by the sarcastic tone of your post, but we'd never run into that before or since, and we played all over the country.

 

 

I was not being sarcastic - that was sincere shock. I simply can't imagine that kind of tight control on volume - especially since I play in metal bands. We always use common sense when we play - volume-wise - but to have an owner standing there with db meter during sound-check is just crazy to me. So I apologize if I came off sarcastic - I was seriously amazed.

 

conversation digression follows

Back in the 80's when I was touring full time, we pulled into club for a week long engagement, set up, soundchecked and started the first of 6 nights we were contracted for. A couple songs in, the owner comes over and says "turn down, you're too loud". Our soundman drops the volume, owner comes back "you're still too loud". Soundman drops the mains down almost to nothing - "you're still too loud, the guys playing pool right by the PA can't concentrate on their games".

 

Our soundman turns off the mains, we turn the monitors to face the audience - "you're still too loud". Finally, as a joke our drummer drops his sticks and plays with his index fingers, i shut off my mic and sing without it (bear in mind - we were a hard rock band). The owner says "that's perfect, keep it like that for the rest of the week, that's how we like it here". We look at each other - drummer picks up his sticks, me and our guitarist dime our amps. Our soundman nods, walks back to the soundboard and pins the mains as we launch into Motorhead's "Ace of Spades".

 

Owner comes running up screaming but we played that song right to the bitter end. When we finish he says "you're fired!!!!", and our collective response back was "thank you!" We gladly packed our {censored} and left - no way we were going to play all week long like that. Bear in my mind I was much younger then - I was only 17 and a little cocky lol.

 

End of conversation digression

 

Back on topic: Good luck Kramerguy - sounds like a real connundrum, but it looks like you'll have the situation well in hand by showtime.

[Kramerguy]

I remember a bar I liked to hang at in the 80's.. same problem with the residents always complaining... no db meters or anything.. but they did eventually harass the bar into closing down... and the sad thing was that it had nothing to do with the music volume.. it was that the "nightlife" became unacceptable, as one poster put it..

 

Really sad how everyone puts bumper stickers on their cars promoting how patriotic and freedum they are, yet the same people do everything they can to be the fun police in everyone else's lives, and fail to see the utter hypocrisy of it all...

[Flogger59]

Try to keep the sound away from the walls, control your volume. Otherwise it'll be like an outboard motor in a bathtub.

[corbind]

It doesn't change anything we do on stage but the owners seem to appreciate that we are taking their volume concerns seriously. (Or at least making it appear we are taking them seriously.)

 

I like your attitude,

[MaxKincaide]

I remember a bar I liked to hang at in the 80's.. same problem with the residents always complaining... no db meters or anything.. but they did eventually harass the bar into closing down... and the sad thing was that it had nothing to do with the music volume.. it was that the "nightlife" became unacceptable, as one poster put it.. Really sad how everyone puts bumper stickers on their cars promoting how patriotic and freedum they are, yet the same people do everything they can to be the fun police in everyone else's lives, and fail to see the utter hypocrisy of it all... Anyways.. looks like the gig is getting canceled.. a long story for another thread

 

I know this is OT, but I wanted to vent for a second, so my appologies...

 

I live in a small town in Southwest GA, which is a huge part of the problem with trying to find anything to do around here. If you aren't 75 and into playing Bingo or sitting on the benches in front of Wal-Mart, there is literally NOTHING to do around here.

 

The town I live in is an hour south of Macon, which is usually full of stuff to do. But unless you feel like jumping in the car and riding on the Interstate for an hour just to go see a live band, your options are really limited around here.

 

There are a couple of bars that have live bands play in town, but the majority of the time, the bands are either just plain bad, or the good ones tend to get shut down before they finish the evening by the police due to noise complaints. Happens every single time. And when I say it only happens to the good bands, I'm not making the judgement on which band is good based on what they play. I'm saying that the ones that play all night are just really bad at what they do, but for some reason, the drunk redneck farmers around here want to get down to out of tune versions of Brown Eyed Girl, Mustang Sally, and Sweet Home Alabama. I have a complete and utter disdain for all 3 of those songs, just so you know, but when they're played BADLY, it becomes a whole new animal.

 

Anyway, the ones that call the po-po about noise complaints are the same ones that you can catch the next weekend in the same bar listening to another random terrible bar band. And yet, when a band that comes through that can actually play those songs IN TUNE, they complain...but they complain because the younger people are getting into the music as well. The complaints stem from a general disdain for anyone that does not have gray hair.

 

It's like the old people in this town are the ones who want to run everyone else off, but then they're the same ones who bitch and moan that they can't get tourists to come through...(the town is directly off of I-75, so alot of the revenue for the city and county comes from tourism...which, oddly enough, is mostly generated from the friggin' gas stations and nothing else, since there's nothing for a tourist to do around here).

 

The population of the town is roughly 12,000, and I would say a large portion of the population is between 21-40. And, for anyone between those ages, there is nothing at all to do. There used to be a bowling alley, but that was closed down by the elders of the community...they claimed that the place was too noisy. The bowling alley was on the outskirts of the town, where NOBODY lives within 3 miles of the building, and they locked up at 11pm on the weeknights. Granted for the 2 years that they were open, they were packed..but it wasn't THAT noisy. It was a friggin' bowling alley.

 

Anyway, that closed in '93, and that was really the last thing that came through here that was recreationally oriented. The band I used to be in tried to put on a show at an old Lion's Club fairgrounds in town...we had 12 bands booked, and did an all day thing...turned out that the town "elders" came into the fairgrounds with alcohol and started causing trouble, making sure everyone stayed outside instead of inside listening to the bands.

 

So, yeah, man, I know where you're coming from, in regards to hipocrisy.

[faileddrummer]

 

I know this is OT, but I wanted to vent for a second, so my appologies... I live in a small town in Southwest GA, which is a huge part of the problem with trying to find anything to do around here. If you aren't 75 and into playing Bingo or sitting on the benches in front of Wal-Mart, there is literally NOTHING to do around here. The town I live in is an hour south of Macon, which is usually full of stuff to do. But unless you feel like jumping in the car and riding on the Interstate for an hour just to go see a live band, your options are really limited around here. There are a couple of bars that have live bands play in town, but the majority of the time, the bands are either just plain bad, or the good ones tend to get shut down before they finish the evening by the police due to noise complaints. Happens every single time. And when I say it only happens to the good bands, I'm not making the judgement on which band is good based on what they play. I'm saying that the ones that play all night are just really bad at what they do, but for some reason, the drunk redneck farmers around here want to get down to out of tune versions of Brown Eyed Girl, Mustang Sally, and Sweet Home Alabama. I have a complete and utter disdain for all 3 of those songs, just so you know, but when they're played BADLY, it becomes a whole new animal. Anyway, the ones that call the po-po about noise complaints are the same ones that you can catch the next weekend in the same bar listening to another random terrible bar band. And yet, when a band that comes through that can actually play those songs IN TUNE, they complain...but they complain because the younger people are getting into the music as well. The complaints stem from a general disdain for anyone that does not have gray hair. It's like the old people in this town are the ones who want to run everyone else off, but then they're the same ones who bitch and moan that they can't get tourists to come through...(the town is directly off of I-75, so alot of the revenue for the city and county comes from tourism...which, oddly enough, is mostly generated from the friggin' gas stations and nothing else, since there's nothing for a tourist to do around here). The population of the town is roughly 12,000, and I would say a large portion of the population is between 21-40. And, for anyone between those ages, there is nothing at all to do. There used to be a bowling alley, but that was closed down by the elders of the community...they claimed that the place was too noisy. The bowling alley was on the outskirts of the town, where NOBODY lives within 3 miles of the building, and they locked up at 11pm on the weeknights. Granted for the 2 years that they were open, they were packed..but it wasn't THAT noisy. It was a friggin' bowling alley. Anyway, that closed in '93, and that was really the last thing that came through here that was recreationally oriented. The band I used to be in tried to put on a show at an old Lion's Club fairgrounds in town...we had 12 bands booked, and did an all day thing...turned out that the town "elders" came into the fairgrounds with alcohol and started causing trouble, making sure everyone stayed outside instead of inside listening to the bands. So, yeah, man, I know where you're coming from, in regards to hipocrisy.

 

 

If it's that bad... Why don't you move? Once I get some revenue, I intend on getting myself a nice place in the center of it all.

[Johnny_1Nut]

 

Dial back any reverbs or delays you are using in a room like this. The room is going to add plenty of reverb to everything.

 

 

This.

 

And a soundcheck prior to the start time, preferably half hour or more if possible. I'd leave the 'verb and any similar effects OFF, that's what's washing the vocals out, that type of room will have so much natural reverb it's sick.

[MaxKincaide]

 

If it's that bad... Why don't you move? Once I get some revenue , I intend on getting myself a nice place in the center of it all.

 

 

 

That's why ^^

[Kramerguy]

 

This. And a soundcheck prior to the start time, preferably half hour or more if possible. I'd leave the 'verb and any similar effects OFF, that's what's washing the vocals out, that type of room will have so much natural reverb it's sick.

 

 

That's the problem.. they were all off. No verb or fx were used, the room really is that bad.

[MaxKincaide]

I'm a noob at sound stuff, but this is what I would want to try if I were there...

 

I would start with the drums. I'm not sure I would even mic any of them, really, if the room is that reflective. I would use more felt on the cymbals and adjust use heavy-duty muffles on all the heads. I would also adjust the snare so there isn't so much pop, but more of a rattle.

 

After that, I would adjust the bass to the drums in terms of volume...I would probably try to use more mids and less bass, maybe put the mids on 6, lows on 4. If possible, try and have the bass run DI, too, and put the subs to use...it may give you more control over the overall low end sound...

 

From there, I would move to guitars, and definitely roll the mids up and lows down...I would leave the amp set at moniter level or lower, and close mic it with a SM57...and just nudge it up in the mix gradually.

 

The vocals, if they're still being run dry, I would cut out as much low end as possible, while leaving the mids and highs about even.

 

I think the trick to those types of rooms is letting the mids carry the sound...of course, I could very well be wrong....

 

Again, I'm a noob to live sound mixing...that's just what I would try if I were there. I just wanted to try to throw a helpful suggestion into the thread since I posted something OT in here earlier...sorry if my info is incorrect....

[rorylawford]

I'm even more noob at mixing than Max - but if I were to suggest anything, it would be to hit the hardware store and buy some plexi and hinges and make an isolation shield/booth thingy for the drums so you can really control their volume - than go from there using your own good judgment as far as mixing/sweetening.

[Rich4Once]

 

I'm even more noob at mixing than Max - but if I were to suggest anything, it would be to hit the hardware store and buy some plexi and hinges and make an isolation shield/booth thingy for the drums so you can really control their volume - than go from there using your own good judgment as far as mixing/sweetening.

 

 

That worked for us even better than we expected. We were able to play at reasonable volumes out front while still having decent stage volume. We accomplished that part by doing something I still do today in my current band...side fill.

 

We place our amps on the sides, pointing across the stage, which keeps the guitars from driving the room. If you combine that with the drum shield, you should never have another volume problem.