ok so how do I tell someone..

[Kramerguy]

You ever go to an open mic, or on a forum like this one, where you really do want to encourage people, but you know you will always run into the occasional guy who just isn't cut out for whatever instrument he or she is playing.. to the point that it's not even a question.. and here they are, demo's in hand, asking for input...

 

I got one today that just SUCKS.. I mean this guy just has NO feel, tone, or whatever you want to call it, after several years of playing, his playing is out of synch, flat, ... his note accentuation is just awful.. and he's asking me to critique him...

 

So do I award mediocrity and encourage him, or do I save the masses from what will only be further murder of what we know as music and just tell him the truth?

[faileddrummer]

He DID ask for feedback. But you also have to take in mind, he's probably self taught. Maybe noone's actually shown him how to play, so, he tried learning from idiots.

[Dthraco]

I review CD's for the local magazine. 80% of them are crap.

 

Here's what I would say to him:

 

I would tell him why it sucks, but not in a condescending way.

i.e.

Your timing is off.

Your playing sounds too rehearsed and not alive.

There is no vocal quality to your playing.

Your technique needs work because you are out of tune on your bends.

Your vibrato is not in time with the music.

 

Basically give him the truth, but also insert some leading comments to assist.

 

Or you could just say, cool man and not deal with it.

[Chicken Monkey]

You must be well-respected if you've got demos coming at you out of the blue. I'd give a concrete strength and a concrete avenue for improvement. "Song selection is great, but you're not quite doing them justice. Practicing with a metronome really helped me iron out those sorts of rhythm kinks."

[Kramerguy]

 

I review CD's for the local magazine. 80% of them are crap. Here's what I would say to him: I would tell him why it sucks, but not in a condescending way. i.e. Your timing is off. Your playing sounds too rehearsed and not alive. There is no vocal quality to your playing. Your technique needs work because you are out of tune on your bends. Your vibrato is not in time with the music. Basically give him the truth, but also insert some leading comments to assist. Or you could just say, cool man and not deal with it.

 

 

E. All of the above.

[tucktronix]

He DID ask for feedback. But you also have to take in mind, he's probably self taught. Maybe noone's actually shown him how to play, so, he tried learning from idiots.

 

What does being self-taught have to do with this? I'm self-taught, and I know of a lot of great musicians whom are also self-taught.

[Kramerguy]

 

You must be well-respected if you've got demos coming at you out of the blue. I'd give a concrete strength and a concrete avenue for improvement. "Song selection is great, but you're not quite doing them justice. Practicing with a metronome really helped me iron out those sorts of rhythm kinks."

 

 

No so much well respected.. just well networked hah.

 

So hmm, it's really one of those deals where the guy is just not "getting it" on the guitar. Everything is sloppy, robotic, mis-intrepreted (strums in wrong places), etc.. His leads are even worse.

 

I'm starting to wonder how we got to the point where we do nothing but lie to everyone out of pity for their feelings when asked. It's not so bad on forums as we don't care too much about feelings.. but in real life, and at open mics especially, we clap no matter how bad someone is.. and there are the deserving cases where someone continues to improve and try... but what about those who stink the place up week after week, consistently awful?

[Dthraco]

They make the talent look better.

[rhat]

 

No so much well respected.. just well networked hah. So hmm, it's really one of those deals where the guy is just not "getting it" on the guitar. Everything is sloppy, robotic, mis-intrepreted (strums in wrong places), etc.. His leads are even worse. I'm starting to wonder how we got to the point where we do nothing but lie to everyone out of pity for their feelings when asked. It's not so bad on forums as we don't care too much about feelings.. but in real life, and at open mics especially, we clap no matter how bad someone is.. and there are the deserving cases where someone continues to improve and try... but what about those who stink the place up week after week, consistently awful?

 

 

 

They just never quit make it up the list high enough to play....or just say , ya know,, you cleared the bar the last time you played. We had one bar clearing guy last winter.... when he showed up the second time ,, he never got on stage.

[toddkuen]

 

... I got one today that just SUCKS.. I mean this guy just has NO feel, tone, or whatever you want to call it, after several years of playing, his playing is out of synch, flat, ... his note accentuation is just awful.. and he's asking me to critique him... So do I award mediocrity and encourage him, or do I save the masses from what will only be further murder of what we know as music and just tell him the truth?

 

 

Find out what he thinks about his performance.

 

If he thinks he's great, then tell him the unadorned truth.

 

If he thinks he sucks, don't discourage him from his belief.

 

Tell him he needs to demonstrate significant improvement before you'll let him up again - your reputation is at stake. If there is a significant rate of improvement from one week to the next I would cut him some slack.

[Lee Knight]

If the guy is that far off the amp, what can you do?

 

I just finished producing an old style rockin' blues band. Tons of cool vibe.Songs are great, rhythm section rocks... and the lead player absolutely blows. No rhythmic sense whatsoever. Thank God the 2nd vocalist plays great rhythm guitar. But the lead? His rhythm issues are killing his leads. No clue.

 

I was forced to comp from many takes and time correct every note to make it sound like music. The guy was flustered and with no confidence. And he was right to be flustered. He knew he was going to be outed. I'm not doing it, he is.

 

Should I just let it go? Here's what I did...

 

"I have a suggestion for you if you're interested for how to take your playing to the next level. All those rough spots we worked on today? If you were to follow my recommendation you would fly though everything we did today without issue. You want to talk after tracking?"

 

He got excited and said, "YES! Let's talk later."

 

We talked later. I lined him out, step by step, as to how he could fix his issues. He nodded in total agreement. He'd finally found the answer to this obstacle of timing and confidence. "I get it! This is great! Awesome!!!"

 

"I'll do it!!! Next time we track it'll be a different story, that's for sure. Thanks!!!"

 

2 weeks later. How'd those exercises work for you?

 

"Uh... yeah... I started to... well... yeah..." That session went even worse than the first.

 

{censored} it. If someone really has the push and the sincere desire to improve, they will drag what you have to offer them right out of your skull. They'll pester you without letting up to get from what you can offer them.

 

Let it go. Smile and say, "Sounds great." If he persists, then help.

[sabriel9v]

 

So do I award mediocrity and encourage him, or do I save the masses from what will only be further murder of what we know as music and just tell him the truth?

 

 

Find out his objectives. If he sincerely plans on being the next Steve Vai on guitar or Herbie Hancock on piano, you need to break the news to him. If he's simply enjoying himself and having a good time, feel free to pad your opinions.

 

One of my good friends I've known since high school is a terrible songwriter and singer. However, he wants to be the next Bob Marley. I doubt he'll ever reach that level of songwriting, but I know he's having fun and I would never want to deter him from that.

[Lee Knight]

 

Tell him he needs to demonstrate significant improvement before you'll let him up again - your reputation is at stake.

 

 

Yeah, as far as you letting him perform... if he really blows, don't let him play. Be nice... "Sorry man, you're not up to the level of these guys."

[Kramerguy]

They make the talent look better.

 

lol priceless

[slight-return]

I'm pretty much in agreement with the other guys (it seems like there's a general sense).

 

A lot of what is difficult here isn't the facts so much as the interpersonal stuff which is a management skill.

 

You can be frank without being mean

 

"you suck" is just dismissive and doesn't really help - it just invalidates the guy as opposed to giving any direction

 

Lee K brought up some things and a good general approach -- give him things to work TOWARD.

OK, so he's been playing for years, and he's maybe self-taught -- maybe he's self mis-taught

you can suggest certain things to work on, you can suggest lessons

 

you can tell him you feel that the stuff isn't at performance level at this time

 

the title is probably closer to the mark "HOW DO I "

as opposed to the body of the post

"DO I"

 

you already know what you need to do, you just have to present it well

[boxorox]

There was a guy that used to come to an open mike where we'd jam out in the parking lot. People heard his car coming, they'd pack up and go inside. He was a friendly guy who loved to play, but his timing was awful, he played too loud and too much. Like I said, he was a nice guy, and I didn't run away. We'd play, I'd say "Just count to four through here, lay back on this part, think of the words being sung", stuff like that. Can't take any credit for how he turned out, as I truly thought he washopeless, but he is a professional musician today, one of the best in his field. He has toured internationally, and is still a Hell of a nice guy. Point being his love of playing, his dedication, finaly overcame his shortcomings. So don't sugar coat, but don't count him out. If you can give direction (buy a metronome, listen to how B.B. plays his bends) he might take it.

[Janx]

 

I review CD's for the local magazine. 80% of them are crap. Here's what I would say to him: I would tell him why it sucks, but not in a condescending way. i.e. Your timing is off. Your playing sounds too rehearsed and not alive. There is no vocal quality to your playing. Your technique needs work because you are out of tune on your bends. Your vibrato is not in time with the music. Basically give him the truth, but also insert some leading comments to assist. Or you could just say, cool man and not deal with it.

 

 

 

As the above says, stick to factual elements, not opinion. Timing is either on or off. Pitch is either on or off.

 

If somebody argues with any of kind of points I quoted, they're just arguing to argue.

[SoTotally]

 

What does being self-taught have to do with this? I'm self-taught, and I know of a lot of great musicians whom are also self-taught.

 

 

+1 on this.

[Lee Knight]

 

There was a guy that used to come to an open mike where we'd jam out in the parking lot. People heard his car coming, they'd pack up and go inside. He was a friendly guy who loved to play, but his timing was awful, he played too loud and too much. Like I said, he was a nice guy, and I didn't run away. We'd play, I'd say "Just count to four through here, lay back on this part, think of the words being sung", stuff like that. Can't take any credit for how he turned out, as I truly thought he washopeless, but he is a professional musician today, one of the best in his field. He has toured internationally, and is still a Hell of a nice guy. Point being his love of playing, his dedication, finaly overcame his shortcomings. So don't sugar coat, but don't count him out. If you can give direction (buy a metronome, listen to how B.B. plays his bends) he might take it.

 

 

I love that story. I dream of that story. Guys that really want to get better. If you want to get better, you tend to have somewhat of a grasp of your shortcomings. Cause you're paying attention, right?

 

It's the guys that don't know they have issues. They tend to want to be validated and not really want to have to work toward bettering there skills. I think I'll always be ready to help but be very quick to spot someone who's only looking for validation and bail as soon as you see it.

[Austincowbell]

give him a bass

 

 

-actually... what was said above. Don't be an asshole but don't give him false hope and don't put him in a situation where he will make a fool of himself because he thinks he is actually good. A good thing would be "I can tell your ideas are there but your playing has a lot of small things to fine tune and the best way would be to take a lesson. Tell him that your buddy in Austin is in a few bands, one of them plays pretty good shows, and EVERY wednesday night he is sitting on a couch with a workbook and a pair of sticks next to a 12-year-old with the same workbook and a pair of sticks because he wants to learn how to play drums the correct way.

[THX1138]

give him a bass

 

HEY FUKKER!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Eh... who am I kiddin. It's a good answer.

[faileddrummer]

 

What does being self-taught have to do with this? I'm self-taught, and I know of a lot of great musicians whom are also self-taught.

 

 

So, based on that, every self taught musician must be AMAZING!

[tucktronix]

 

So, based on that, every self taught musician must be AMAZING!

 

 

So, based on your previous post, EVERY self-taught musician must SUCK??

 

Now's who being judgmental?

[slight-return]

Maybe noone's actually shown him how to play, so, he tried learning from idiots.

 

hmm, this seems inconsistent

 

if he tried learning from idiots, then he wouldn't actually be self-taught

 

that's one of the funky things about self-taught -- it's not necessarilly a yes-no proposition, we pick up stuff from sources and those sources inform and teach us. Might be a pal slowing down to demo something, might be an article we've read...but we didn't lick it off the floor

 

(hell, there's even some neuroscience around our pitch perception being tied to our native spoken language)

[faileddrummer]

So, based on your previous post, EVERY self-taught musician must SUCK?? Now's who being judgmental?

 

I never once said that every self taught musician sucked. I simply made a statement that he probably tried to teach himself and had no diea where to start.

 

Hey, you were able to teach yourself, big to you and your friends... But not everyone can.