Members faileddrummer Posted June 24, 2009 Members Share Posted June 24, 2009 hmm, this seems inconsistent if he tried learning from idiots, then he wouldn't actually be self-taught that's one of the funky things about self-taught -- it's not necessarilly a yes-no proposition, we pick up stuff from sources and those sources inform and teach us. Might be a pal slowing down to demo something, might be an article we've read...but we didn't lick it off the floor(hell, there's even some neuroscience around our pitch perception being tied to our native spoken language) Fair enough. By "self taught" I mean no formal lessons. He wouldn't be asking for an opinion if he was someone with no interest in improving though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted June 24, 2009 Members Share Posted June 24, 2009 He wouldn't be asking for an opinion if he was someone with no interest in improving though. I think it's probably good policy to take the guy with the demo at face value and work AS IF he does (and hopefully he does) Howver, I don't think it's always the case that the request and the deep down motive are aligned (I think that's one of the things Kramer is/was concerned about - how the guy will deal) It's a lesson that a wife asking "does this dress make me look big bottomed?" will drill into one's head I had an interesting no-win last night The wife's friend came over and was trying on my wife's new dresses they asked "how does she look?" zugzwang baby - it's a trick question I mumbled and the wife said "he never says much to those questions" I said "because I learned my lessons" ah, my own little Kobayashi Maru or kids... when I was little, I would ask my mom how she liked my picture and she'd say "that's atrocious!" with a positive tone and I ate it up...later I found out what an atrocity was. We are still like dogs, tone matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 24, 2009 Members Share Posted June 24, 2009 I never once said that every self taught musician sucked. I simply made a statement that he probably tried to teach himself and had no diea where to start. Hey, you were able to teach yourself, big to you and your friends... But not everyone can. "Me and my friends?" Your insincerity and ignorance are astounding.. Becoming self-taught, just like having formal lessons or life in general, is all about applying yourself and building on what was learned. Having formal lessons won't mean diddly poo if you don't practice and develop your skills. I'm willing to bet 'ya that, just as there are many self-taught players who are aren't very good, there are players who have had formal training who fall under the same umbrella. Making broad generalizations about self-taught musicians just makes you look incredibly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 "Me and my friends?"Your insincerity and ignorance are astounding..Becoming self-taught, just like having formal lessons or life in general, is all about applying yourself and building on what was learned. Having formal lessons won't mean diddly poo if you don't practice and develop your skills. I'm willing to bet 'ya that, just as there are many self-taught players who are aren't very good, there are players who have had formal training who fall under the same umbrella. Making broad generalizations about self-taught musicians just makes you look incredibly stupid. Not really. Because anybody who was trained and still sucks, just doesn't care. I am still under the belief that you are still failing to see my point, and, because of your insecurity, you feel the need to hurl the insults. You learned to play yourself, congratulations. Back to my original point, NOT EVERYONE CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 What does being self-taught have to do with this? I'm self-taught, and I know of a lot of great musicians whom are also self-taught. Me too. Never had a lesson. Wish I could have, but I was a po' boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Me too. Never had a lesson. Wish I could have, but I was a po' boy. But would you agree that not everyone can pull the self taught route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 But would you agree that not everyone can pull the self taught route? I would agree. But I don't think that's what Tuck was saying. Then again, I didn't get that you were saying self taught = bad. I think both of y'all are misunderstanding the other. Some self taught guys are great. Some aren't. But when I lived in LA, I jammed with some GIT grads. Some were fabulous, others couldn't play without a chart in front of them and had all the soul of a fence post. I believe musical ability (notice I didn't say 'love of music', but the ability to pick it up and play it) is to some degree innate, and moreso in some than others. So for some, they have such natural ability with it that they can learn it in a matter of months. I remember reading in Guitar Player magazine back in about 1980 or so an article about Duane Allman. Greg Allman actuallty started as a guitar player when he was 14. Duane saw him playing it and, since Duane was 16 and dropped out of school, he picked it up and started playing it during the day while Greg was at school. A mere two years later, Duane is playing lead and slide guitar as a session man for the Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section, backing people like Aretha Franklin and Otis Redding. That's what I call innate ability. Others may require lessons to pull that out of them and open some doors to new perspectives, but if that ability is there, it will develop and emerge. But if it isn't there, no amount of practice or lessons will ever make it happen. We've all seen it-guys with years of lessons and experience who still have no sense of touch, timing, melodic development or feel, where their playing always sounds wooden and forced and their solos stand out for their awfulness in the same way a nude picture of Steve Buscemi would stand out if it were cut out and pasted to a Rembrandt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 25, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2009 But would you agree that not everyone can pull the self taught route? And not everyone can pull off the formal schooling route either. What the hell does this have to do with anything? Are you opening up a chain of music schools? Musical skill comes from the player and his efforts in bettering himself. Formal education is fantastic, but not necessary. Nobody's putting down formal training. But if a prospective musician is going to amount to anything worthwhile musically... ...it will be due to his diligence and drive. Formal training or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Thank you. About your insincerity... Your "point" was already made when you admitted to slight-return what you really meant by the term "self-taught"... By "self taught" I mean no formal lessons. So in your infinite wisdom, you came up with the quick assumption that the gentleman that the OP was talking about must be self-taught if he sucks that bad. Then you contradict yourself after I called you up on your misguided point of view. You indeed must not be totally confident about your own point of view to change it around like that. Who's being insecure?? Now here's what I meant when I referred to your ignorance... FYI, it doesn't take a "special" skill or talent or a someone with "super powers" to make it successful. The "raw" talent somehow has to be there, but just like anything else, it takes a desire and a willingness to learn and improve. Some of the more "talented" musicians learn quicker than others. Not all of us can afford formal lessons. Do you really think that early blues guitar masters like Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson had formal lessons?? Again, your insincerity and ignorance are ASTOUNDING! Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members samkokajko Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Look at American Idol. These people are awful. Utterly horrible, but when the judges crush them into a paste they tell the cameras... "Their wrong, they don't know what they're talking about. Everyone says I'm great. No one has ever said I wasn't good" Don't let this guy be that guy. As to how to tell him see comments from everybody above / Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Echoes22 Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 couldn't you just avoid the dude asking for criticism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 About your insincerity... Your "point" was already made when you admitted to slight-return what you really meant by the term "self-taught"... So in your infinite wisdom, you came up with the quick assumption that the gentleman that the OP was talking about must be self-taught if he sucks that bad. Then you contradict yourself after I called you up on your misguided point of view. You indeed must not be totally confident about your own point of view to change it around like that. Who's being insecure?? Now here's what I meant when I referred to your ignorance... FYI, it doesn't take a "special" skill or talent or a someone with "super powers" to make it successful. The "raw" talent somehow has to be there, but just like anything else, it takes a desire and a willingness to learn and improve. Some of the more "talented" musicians learn quicker than others. Not all of us can afford formal lessons. Do you really think that early blues guitar masters like Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson had formal lessons?? Again, your insincerity and ignorance are ASTOUNDING! Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Nice picture:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Oops, was this what you were looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Nice picture:thu:I hate pictures. Now CHILL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted June 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 couldn't you just avoid the dude asking for criticism? I could, much like when my wife asks me if she looks fat in that dress.. Dodging the question usually doesn't help the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Now CHILL! Not until you chill first:poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Not until you chill first:poke: It's all good on my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 25, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2009 You guys need to get a room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheAxeMan Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 I could, much like when my wife asks me if she looks fat in that dress.. Dodging the question usually doesn't help the situation. No you tell her the dress looks fat on her. but don't forget the "P-H" I would tell this guy the truth. Let him know what he needs to work on. If he's any kind of musician he'll listen. Maybe suggest a guitar instructor to keep him on route and push him along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 It's all good on my end. It's all good here...Now back to the discussion... The guy did ask for a critique. Be truthful, but in a tactful way. Ask him how often he practices, or if he does at all. How does he practice? What kind of music does he listen to? Whose style does he follow most, if he follows anyone at all. Feel him out. Pay close attention to the answers he gives. Offer suggestions that helped you improve your chops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Ask him how often he practices, or if he does at all. How does he practice? What kind of music does he listen to? Whose style does he follow most, if he follows anyone at all. Feel him out. Pay close attention to the answers he gives. Offer suggestions that helped you improve your chops. I'm going to suggest a slightly different, more streamlined approach tell him you'd like to do a quick eval of his skills have him look at some sheet music -while he is doing this cup his junk in your hand, heft a couple of times and go "...niiiiiicccccee...see ya next week!" see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members faileddrummer Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm going to suggest a slightly different, more streamlined approachtell him you'd like to do a quick eval of his skillshave him look at some sheet music -while he is doing this cup his junk in your hand, heft a couple of times and go "...niiiiiicccccee...see ya next week!"see what happens Damn it... I done near spit my drink all over my computer screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Look at American Idol. These people are awful. Utterly horrible, but when the judges crush them into a paste they tell the cameras..."Their wrong, they don't know what they're talking about. Everyone says I'm great. No one has ever said I wasn't good" Fantastic example. I think a lot of people could benefit from some harsh truths; the problem is none of us want to be the bad guy. It's a shame that we have to even feel like the bad guy, but most people can't take criticism. Even the ones that say they can. These forums are a great example: how many people ask for criticism and when they get anything but "You rawk, dude!" they find all sorts of ways to defend it and make excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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