Oh dear sweet GOD what is it with "no effects" players...I mean, really??

[wades_keys]

You all just made me realize why I gave up playing guitar to play bass.

Goddam - just fukin play the song already.

This {censored} is hilarious.

[wades_keys]

What kind of dim bulb limits himself by refusing to carry enough tools to cover a job?

The same dim bulb that has to be louder than everything else, that has to be the center of attention, that has to shoot down songs by sandbagging em....

[Electric Catfish]

The same dim bulb that has to be louder than everything else, that has to be the center of attention, that has to shoot down songs by sandbagging em....

In that case, the guy with the pedals should definitely get the gig.

[badhabit]

For the longest time, I did not use any pedals or effects; just amp reverb. That was the way it was in the 60's. I tried the early fuzz tones but I didn't gel with them. I did like the wah pedal and used that alot, for all types of music. The late 70's saw me finally get a phaser. But by the time I started using one, that effect was so overdone I stopped. My first decent overdrive was a Boss Turbo Overdrive. That actually sounded kinda OK. I was outa the loop and music till 2004 and man, during that time, things had really changed. Now, I do use some effects pedals judiciously. Always a little verb going. Occasionally, some chorus for clean work, and even on a more "Hendrix" sounding song like Red House. I use some echo and slap back on some solos 'cause it sounds cool and adds interest ( especially slap back on 50's style ). I use my Keely modded TS-9 DX a lot. It's used mostly as a volume and mid boost for solos. I've got a wah-wah that doesn't see much action. And of course, a pedal mounted tuner, which is indispensable, IMO.

So yeah, now, pedals are pretty cool and so much better than yesteryears. There some great tones and sounds available. But like anything, it can be overdone and overused. And let's admit it, some guys use a wash of echo and distortion to mask their mediocre skills. Let's not forget the early rockers used very little, if any effects, and many of them sounded pretty dam good. Some early examples of great tone not arrived at from a pedal.

1) Clapton on Beano and with Cream
2) Many of the early Beatles guitar playing. They did sometimes double track.
3) Mike Bloomfield on The Electric Flag album
4) Jerry Miller with Moby Grape
5) Pete Townsend on just about everything
6) Roger McQuinn and his 12 string Ric with the Byrds
8) Carlos Santana

and many more. And let's not forget the earlier cats that got great clean and jazz tones. Wes Montgomery, Chet Atkins, Chuck Berry, Duane Eddy, Les Paul and many more.

So, great tone doesn't or style come from a pedal or even the "best boutique amp" that starts with a D. It comes from the musician and their individual style.

Yep, pedals are nice tools. But that is all they are. Not a crutch to compensate for a lack of ability.

[Electric Catfish]

8) Carlos Santana.

 

 

He used a Big Muff, at one point, and I'm pretty sure I've heard him use a wah.

 

Anything can be overdone, including a bone dry sound. If one guy is using the same sound all night, and another guy is using different sounds from song to song, which one is overdoing it?

[rhat]

Unless you count the Rangemaster on Beano, and the wah, fuzz face, and leslie cab with cream The "early" stuff was recorded before effects were really available, outside of studio effect, like compression and reverb, which they used plenty of. As for other pedals, they were using them as soon as they got ahold of them. Plenty of fuzz pedals, as well as running through Leslie cabs, even the occasional wah. He used a Superfuzz (octave fuzz) all over Live at Leeds. The guy was so into compression that he had one built into his guitar. He used fuzz, too. He used a Big Muff, at one point, and I'm pretty sure I've heard him use a wah. Anything can be overdone, including a bone dry sound. If one guy is using the same sound all night, and another guy is using different sounds from song to song, which one is overdoing it?

 

 

 

The biggest effect of the 60s was the ric 12 string. The semi hollow body 6 for rhythm was also a must. Lead players were split between semi hollow and solid body guitars... 66 to 70 a mastro fuzz and a vox wah wah were the gold standard for effects. clean tone was in. In so much infact that they got guys to dump the tube amps for cleans of the solid state amp. Backline amps did the heavy lifting , and a cranked tube amp would distort,, so they went overboard for solid state to keep the clean sound people were after.

[tim_7string]

 

It's a phase. You start out with effects, and then realize they are covering up your inability to play. Then you drop the effects and learn how to play. Some guys fight the urge to go back to effects thinking it will hurt their playing ability / Tone.

 

 

That's probably true with a lot of people, but I started out differently on guitar. I went from acoustic, to an electric that had a floating tremolo and a 2-channel solid state amp. The only effects I used were the distorted channel and the built-in spring reverb and my playing. I learned how to simulate chorus with some slight vibrato and even delay simply by picking the string at different rates, going from hard to soft.

 

I did that for years before I bought any other pedals, my first being an equalizer pedal placed in the effects loop to get a heavier tone. Once I got a wah, a digital delay and a chorus, it made playing more fun, but I am definitely glad I started out with a spartan setup and worked on my technique instead.

 

As for the topic, I've been lucky and haven't met too many guys like that. My band in 1995 did have a fill-in guitarist that thought like that ("I gotta crank up for my tone, man!"). He actually drove away the crowd because he wouldn't turn down. This of course pissed off the bar owner, who still paid us, but told us he'd never hire us again. Ironically enough, he really enjoyed the guitarist's company as a drinking buddy kind of guy. Perhaps he thought I was the one that was too loud. Sometimes it's nice to have just one guitarist so that you are in control of those frequencies and no one else can take credit or lay blame as needed when guitars go awry.

[toneforhire]

I just got home from band practice...the guy brought his pedals and it went great...he even admitted that he felt he found a common ground between using the right subtle effects to get the tone, yet he didnt feel dependant on the pedalboard or "chained to it" to use his definition!!!

He is talking about adding to his board (lol) and he made a few song-idea contributions that were are gonna try...basically he brought a cd with a bunch of blues tunes and we are gonna do a few of them, they work in a classic rock set that already has acdc and zz top (bluesy rock)...

All in all it went well...we talked a lot over his pedalboard and mine, I MIGHT have knocked him back into pedal gas a bit LOL

I think he was worried about having to stomp on and off pedals DURING a song...almost all of the effects used are switched on and left on for the entire song...he doesnt have a wah and is not stuck at his board tap dancing, hell the crowd wont even know he or I are stomping on boxes...this I believe was his main concern...he seemed to be more and more relaxed with it...and the songs he suggested only need dirt...mayby a bit of compression, flange, phase, vibe, chorus, and tremolo...LOL...just dirt and compression...

[cooterbrown]

I just got home from band practice...the guy brought his pedals and it went great...he even admitted that he felt he found a common ground between using the right subtle effects to get the tone, yet he didnt feel dependant on the pedalboard or "chained to it" to use his definition!!! He is talking about adding to his board (lol) and he made a few song-idea contributions that were are gonna try...basically he brought a cd with a bunch of blues tunes and we are gonna do a few of them, they work in a classic rock set that already has acdc and zz top (bluesy rock)... All in all it went well...we talked a lot over his pedalboard and mine, I MIGHT have knocked him back into pedal gas a bit LOL I think he was worried about having to stomp on and off pedals DURING a song...almost all of the effects used are switched on and left on for the entire song...he doesnt have a wah and is not stuck at his board tap dancing, hell the crowd wont even know he or I are stomping on boxes...this I believe was his main concern...he seemed to be more and more relaxed with it...and the songs he suggested only need dirt...mayby a bit of compression, flange, phase, vibe, chorus, and tremolo...LOL...just dirt and compression...

 

That's good news, TFH. Sounds like you've found your new bandmate.

Hopefully, the others in this thread will read your update, this time!

[newmaxnew]

I have also seen that many new inexperienced players will use way too many effects and way too wet of a mix with thier effects. The same holds true for gain. I was guilty of all these things myself for the first several years I played.

Max

[tacdryver]

I have also seen that many new inexperienced players will use way too many effects and way too wet of a mix with thier effects. The same holds true for gain. I was guilty of all these things myself for the first several years I played. Max

 

 

Well I used to to think 'This is my sound'...one size fits all...then I adopted different tones to match the other players, and more match the mood/style of the song....

 

I was never a huge pedal guy...volume and wah for me...I saw too many 'pros' get up and have too many volume/mix issues...and then it was a tap dance the rest of the set to get it right...

 

That may be changing as I learn about presets, on a new Pod I have, but all the effects tend to muddy up the tone at low volumes...if I can get loud enough, it will sound fine, but If I am in back with guys out front who can't hear themselves, I will probably have to just go back to a cleaner setting...

[badhabit]

Unless you count the Rangemaster on Beano, and the wah, fuzz face, and leslie cab with cream The "early" stuff was recorded before effects were really available, outside of studio effect, like compression and reverb, which they used plenty of. As for other pedals, they were using them as soon as they got ahold of them. Plenty of fuzz pedals, as well as running through Leslie cabs, even the occasional wah. He used a Superfuzz (octave fuzz) all over Live at Leeds. The guy was so into compression that he had one built into his guitar. He used fuzz, too. He used a Big Muff, at one point, and I'm pretty sure I've heard him use a wah. Anything can be overdone, including a bone dry sound. If one guy is using the same sound all night, and another guy is using different sounds from song to song, which one is overdoing it?

 

 

I didn't say those early guys NEVER used any effects. I said they did not always use them and their tone was great even when they did not use them. Compression was commonly used in recordings in the 60's but unavailable as a pedal until the MXR Dyna Comp. There is controversy over whether Clapton used a Rangemaster on the Beano album, with some saying he did not. As for Townsend, most of his earlier recordings did not have a fuzztone, get real. And when I speak of the Beatles, I refer to most of their recordings pre 1967. Harrison's work with the Ric 12 string was instrumental in McGuinn's using it, as did Carl Wilson and others. Harrison didn't use much effects on his early guitar playing with the exception of what was already commonly used in that era, reverb, echo, compression, doubling.

 

You're missing the point. I'm not against effects. I'm against anyone saying a guitar player cannot sound good without them, which is BS. Effects are merely tools to color your sound. But sometimes, the tone is better without them.

[toneforhire]

I have also seen that many new inexperienced players will use way too many effects and way too wet of a mix with thier effects. The same holds true for gain. I was guilty of all these things myself for the first several years I played. Max

 

 

Oh yeah...you learn quick that in a live setting or recording, MUCH LESS gain is needed than you think...I get by with a visual sounds route 66, Jeckyll and hyde, AND a fulltone 2 mosfette...and I go from a touch of hair to tool/metal gain...when I occasionally use my gig board at home with less volume, I find I crank the gain a bit, but when I gig, I dont use much

[tacdryver]

I didn't say those early guys NEVER used any effects. I said they did not always use them and their tone was great even when they did not use them. Compression was commonly used in recordings in the 60's but unavailable as a pedal until the MXR Dyna Comp. There is controversy over whether Clapton used a Rangemaster on the Beano album, with some saying he did not. As for Townsend, most of his earlier recordings did not have a fuzztone, get real. And when I speak of the Beatles, I refer to most of their recordings pre 1967. Harrison's work with the Ric 12 string was instrumental in McGuinn's using it, as did Carl Wilson and others. Harrison didn't use much effects on his early guitar playing with the exception of what was already commonly used in that era, reverb, echo, compression, doubling. You're missing the point. I'm not against effects. I'm against anyone saying a guitar player cannot sound good without them, which is BS. Effects are merely tools to color your sound. But sometimes, the tone is better without them.

 

 

I couldn't care less what the player shows up with....he either can either play the song or not, cop the tone or not...

[cooterbrown]

 

Oh yeah...you learn quick that in a live setting or recording, MUCH LESS gain is needed than you think.

 

 

Nothing more sad than watching some n00b struggling to be heard with their "bees-in-a-can" sound.

 

I once helped out some kid who was a former keyboard student of mine, when I went to hear the tail end of a triple bill at the local indie club, after my band had finished at midnight at the club across the parking lot. We were chatting, for a minute and he told me that he could never hear himself, and not mincing words, I told him his sound was awful.

 

Kid had a Metal Zone with the pre gain all the way up, mids scooped, master volume too high...you know... that total sound fail.

Since they were the last band and weren't in a hurry to tear down, I went out to the car, and got out my old silver screw Boss DS-1.

 

I told him "here's a nice trick..." I swapped the Metal Zone with my DS-1, dimed the level, set the tone at 50%, and distortion at 25%. Then, on his amp, I set his pre gain just past 9 o' clock, and the tone knobs on his lead channel and his master volume (he had a decent Marshall DSL 401) all at 12 o clock. Told him to hit a power chord, and holy {censored} - whaddya know, his eyes lit up - the kid had a fat ol' Billy Gibbons-type tone that would cut through a brick wall. Switched off the box, and he had a nice, controllable rhythm sound.

He had just had an epiphany...I think I actually saw the heavenly light shining over his head.

 

He told me he would be at the music store the next morning to pick up a DS-1 (I think they were on sale for $29, at the time).

[tacdryver]

 

Nothing more sad than watching some n00b struggling to be heard with their "bees-in-a-can" sound.

 

 

... u nailed it 'bees in a can', ... seen 'pros' do it too..

[cooterbrown]

 

... u nailed it 'bees in a can', ... seen 'pros' do it too..

 

 

Yeah...see my previous post's story addition.

I actually helped some kid overcome his BTD.

 

...you know..."Bedroom Tone Disorder".

[tacdryver]

Bedroom players starting out, need a strong mentor to get them through the live stage playing without a lot of drama. The benefit to the mentor, is that when he needs back up, many times the kid will play it right, consistently vs the pro that plays over him, a saboteur stage hog with no stage etiquette.

My best solos came from pros laying back, nailing the rhythm down, a giving me a nice well defined palette to lay my solos onto.

Guys keep showing up to jams with no stage etiquette, stepping all over the singers and the guys trying to solo..it's a mess...good jams have an experienced player that puts new guys in the back, tells them to turn down, and slowly bring them forward in the mix as warranted.

Playing live is a skill set, something I need a lot more work at, but at least I am trying, which is more then I can say about a lot of players that think playing live is the same as their bedroom.

[Electric Catfish]

I didn't say those early guys NEVER used any effects. I said they did not always use them and their tone was great even when they did not use them. Compression was commonly used in recordings in the 60's but unavailable as a pedal until the MXR Dyna Comp. There is controversy over whether Clapton used a Rangemaster on the Beano album, with some saying he did not. As for Townsend, most of his earlier recordings did not have a fuzztone, get real. And when I speak of the Beatles, I refer to most of their recordings pre 1967. Harrison's work with the Ric 12 string was instrumental in McGuinn's using it, as did Carl Wilson and others. Harrison didn't use much effects on his early guitar playing with the exception of what was already commonly used in that era, reverb, echo, compression, doubling. You're missing the point. I'm not against effects. I'm against anyone saying a guitar player cannot sound good without them, which is BS. Effects are merely tools to color your sound. But sometimes, the tone is better without them.

 

 

Think for Yourself, Taxman, and plenty of other pre-'67 songs had fuzz. Matter of fact, '65/'66 they used more fuzz than they did from '67 on. Nobody's claiming an absolute.

 

The Beatles weren't the kind of closed minded, boring musicians to use the same sound on every song, fuzztone or not. How could Harrison have been using effects that didn't exist yet, on the early stuff? They definitely used them WHEN THEY BECAME AVAILABLE. I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp, about that, unless you have your chronology screwed up.

 

As for the Who, I mentioned Leeds specifically. So I'm not sure what you're talking about with "early recordings." Not that Leeds was the only time he used a pedal...

 

McGuinn's compression wasn't simply studio compression. He had what was essentially a comp. pedal BUILT INTO HIS GUITAR (apparently you missed that the first time).

 

Whether Clapton used the Rangemaster or not, is there debate over whether there was wah on "Tales of Brave Ulysses," or Leslie on "Badge?" You did mention Cream, at first. Wonder why you've narrowed it down to the Bluesbreakers, all the sudden?

 

Also, if he didn't use the Rangemaster, does that make it any more or less musically valid than if he did?

 

 

I'm against anyone saying a guitar player cannot sound good without them, which is BS.

 

 

That is BS. That anyone has said that, I mean. Feel free to point out whatever post you're referring to, though. People have said that a guitarist can't accurately cover a lot of different music without them, which is true (and completely different from saying they can't sound "good.")

 

All my effects have switches on them. Pretty handy for getting a "straight-into-the-amp" sound, whenever I need it.

[rhat]

Satisfaction was a real early use of the fuzz tone. Others used it before that song ,, but the stones put the mastro fuzz tone in every garage and basment in the US

[stevesherbert]

 

I don't know about the rest of the pedals on my board, but it definitely doesn't sound like you've tried a good fuzz face or clone. Buffers are not compressors. If you use a tuner pedal (surely you do, right?), your signal is probably already going through a buffer. Unless you have it bypassed with an A/B box...which would be EXACTLY the same thing as a 3PDT switch...which is exactly the same as a cable, electronically speaking.

 

 

i think you're missing what i'm trying to say. in my experience, the 'best' overdriven sound is a clean guitar signal driving the hell out of a tube amp. i find that i can't improve upon that original dynamic tone; things in between only tend to degrade the signal, kind of like how in 'the telephone game' the message only gets more and more garbled the more people you have in between. there's no magic 'restore original signal' function because it's impossible to guess what the original signal was!

 

i'm not saying 'pedals are bad', but i am saying that the more switches, cables, pots, etc there are between my strings and my amp the more degraded my original tone (i.e. the ONE sound that i want more than any others!) becomes.

[Scafeets]

Also, I'd be real careful about suggesting he get a small, multi effects unit. IMO, a lot of those things are junk and if he's got a decent guitar and amp a lot of multi effects unit wouldn't improve his sound.

 

 

+1

Explain it this way: "Hey, your're a great player, but we're a cover band. The role you need to fill requires a variety of sonic textures. Here's what we, as a band, need from this role...."

Then define it -- chorus, wah, etc.

If someone told me to use a multi-effects pedal, I'd tell 'em to cram it. I've tried them all, and still feel the need to haul around a board with 7 pedals to fill that role in my cover band.

[BlueStrat]

+1 Explain it this way: "Hey, your're a great player, but we're a cover band. The role you need to fill requires a variety of sonic textures. Here's what we, as a band, need from this role...." Then define it -- chorus, wah, etc. If someone told me to use a multi-effects pedal, I'd tell 'em to cram it. I've tried them all, and still feel the need to haul around a board with 7 pedals to fill that role in my cover band.

 

Diffrent strokes, I guess, but the mutiFX processor I just got replaced my delay, compressor, chorus, and volume pedal and added a leslie, vibrato, and the ability to preset patches with several different delays, reverbs, vibrato speed, EQ, overdrive, etc. It's like having a pedalboard with 100 different pedals, all in one little unit, and so far they don't sound any different than the ones they're replacing.

 

I still keep my pedalboard in the truck, though, in case this "wonder machine" takes a crap!

[tacdryver]

Diffrent strokes, I guess, but the mutiFX processor I just got replaced my delay, compressor, chorus, and volume pedal and added a leslie, vibrato, and the ability to preset patches with several different delays, reverbs, vibrato speed, EQ, overdrive, etc. It's like having a pedalboard with 100 different pedals, all in one little unit, and so far they don't sound any different than the ones they're replacing. I still keep my pedalboard in the truck, though, in case this "wonder machine" takes a crap!

I think down the road when I get into another band, I will do the GT10 thing...and for this song, this preset...done...

[Electric Catfish]

there's no magic 'restore original signal' function because it's impossible to guess what the original signal was!

 

 

3PDT switches aren't "magic." I can restore my "original" signal any time I want to, by turning the pedals off. Why would you have to "guess," anyway?

 

Can you explain, in any factual electronic terms at all, why you think a 3PDT switch degrades the signal?