Oh dear sweet GOD what is it with "no effects" players...I mean, really??

[BATCAT]

The only red flag is that he might not have much money. What's the big deal with that?

 

The OP said he "REFUSES to use any pedals". That he won't even try something, to see if it improves the song, yeah, that is a red flag.

 

 

And considering their range of genres, they could be doing stuff like Radiohead, Madonna, the Cure, or whatever. They're apparently pretty diverse, not a straight up rock band at all.

[wades_keys]

 

The OP said he "REFUSES to use any pedals". That he won't even try something, to see if it improves the song, yeah, that is a red flag.

 

Because in order to use a pedal, he has to own one first.

 

I don't see anybody stepping up and offering him the use of one of their pedals - I see them demanding at an AUDITION that he make a monetary commitment to a band he is not a part of.

 

A lot of people don't like to admit that they are financially strapped - they'll say things like this to hide the real issue.

 

People have to work together and understand these things - unless of course your band membership is restricted to dinks and trust fund kids with disposable incomes.

[chadd]

 

I agree. But that cuts both ways too. Expecting a guy at an audition to have to invest in more gear IMMEDIATELY is weaker than water. People gotta learn to give and take a little, and that works on both sides.

 

I agree with you, I said there was blame on both sides. If someone told me at an audition that I had to buy a M-E unit, I would get concerned very quickly. If they're already telling me what I need to buy, they're probably going to tell me when to use it and how each patch should sound. That comes across as very controlling and not the kind of thing that would fit me very well.

 

There is nothing wrong with it not being a good fit. Just realize that it's because of both sides, not just one.

[BATCAT]

Because in order to use a pedal, he has to own one first. I don't see anybody stepping up and offering him the use of one of their pedals - I see them demanding at an AUDITION that he make a monetary commitment to a band he is not a part of. A lot of people don't like to admit that they are financially strapped - they'll say things like this to hide the real issue. People have to work together and understand these things - unless of course your band membership is restricted to dinks and trust fund kids with disposable incomes.

 

Eh, I guess the OP would have to clarify. But, given the OP's use of the term "refuses" (in all caps no less) I feel reasonably safe to assume the issue is some kind of categorical rejection of the idea of using any effects, not the fact that he couldn't possibly afford a used chorus pedal for $20.

 

I could be wrong, who knows. And now, I'm off work and outta here. Be safe, yall. See you in 2.0. If it works.

[wades_keys]

I agree with you, I said there was blame on both sides. If someone told me at an audition that I had to buy a M-E unit, I would get concerned very quickly. If they're already telling me what I need to buy, they're probably going to tell me when to use it and how each patch should sound. That comes across as very controlling and not the kind of thing that would fit me very well. There is nothing wrong with it not being a good fit. Just realize that it's because of both sides, not just one.

EXACTLY.

 

And they didn't even make an offer to the guy - instead dictating to him what gear he must have to be a part of the band.

 

{censored} that - I'd refuse too, but I'd make damn sure to let you know how outrageous and uncalled for it is to be asking me to plunk down my money when you haven't made me an offer yet.

 

That would be like going to a job interview and being told you'll need to buy a uniform before they've even agreed to hire you on.

 

[BlueStrat]

 

It's just rhythm guitar. No solos, no David Gilmour, no standing out in the mix. Rhythm guitar. WHat the hell you need effects for? Let the lead guitarist cover that. Rhythm guitar can and should be dry as a bone IMO. Strat, you mentioned Joe Perry. He's a lead guitarist. A better example would be Brad Whitford: bone dry sound that complements Perry's brown sound perfectly. You know what sounds like {censored}? Two guitarists hitting the wah pedal at the same time. Two guitarists with the exact same tone. A rhythm guitarist that doesn't know his place in the mix or the song - stepping all over the lead sonically. I don't see a problem at all with a non-effected rhythm guitar - this works for Brad Whitford, Malcolm Young, Joan Jett, Rudy Schenker, the list goes on....

 

 

 

So, don't you think it's better to have the tools and not need them than to need them and not have them?

IN my 2 guitar band we do lots of songs that call for the rhythm to use a tremolo, or a leslie effect, or slap delay, or chorus...

[Steadfastly]

Let him make the decision. It is going to be your way or the highway. You have the evening to make up your mind. Simple. It's your band, not his.

[BlueStrat]

 

the best rhythm guitarists in freaking rock history (in 2 guitar lineups) don't use effects at all, or so sparingly that they are not noticed.

Apples and oranges. Most of them aren't in cover bands playing songs by 35-45 different artists a night, either.

 

Why do so many guys here always point to the exceptions as the rule? So the rhythm guy from Aerosmith doesn't use effects. How many different bands a night is he covering?

 

Oh, that's right, one.

[wades_keys]

Apples and oranges. Most of them aren't in cover bands playing songs by 35-45 different artists a night, either. Why do so many guys here always point to the exceptions as the rule? So the rhythm guy from Aerosmith doesn't use effects. How many different bands a night is he covering? Oh, that's right, one .

 

Dude, he's not even in the band.

 

IT was an audition.

 

So you think it's okay to make financial demands of a player during his audition, without making him an offer to join the band?

 

Yeah, in an ideal situation - he would have a variety of tools.

 

BUt then the drummer should have timbales, wood blocks, and an 8,000 Zildijian gong to cover Rush tunes.

 

Where does it end?

[SpaceNorman]

 

Where does it end?

 

 

In this guy's case it ended before he left the audition. He failed to impress the guys he auditioned for with his tone - and then rather than picking up on the signals that were clearly being sent to him "uh, dude do you use any effects?" - he stuck to his guns - and in the process eliminated any chance that the choice to of whether or not he might land the gig would be his.

 

There ain't no rights or wrongs in this situation. However, you better be a killer player if you're sending the message that you is what you is and you aren't open to trying something new or different.

[theAntihero]

 

Apples and oranges. Most of them aren't in cover bands playing songs by 35-45 different artists a night, either. Why do so many guys here always point to the exceptions as the rule? So the rhythm guy from Aerosmith doesn't use effects. How many different bands a night is he covering? Oh, that's right, one .

 

 

I agree,look i like Malcolm Young, but no one is ever gonna say that the man can play a thousand styles. A cover band usually wants to sound like the band they are covering, if they are covering ac/dc all night no effects would be required but U2 would be hard.

 

I dont understand this no fx thing really, its not some cult you have to give your life for, they are just tools.

[BlueStrat]

So you think it's okay to make financial demands of a player during his audition, without making him an offer to join the band?

No, but I do expect people I audition to at least own the tools they need for what I'm hiring them for and be willing to use them.

 

I don't see it much differently than trying out for a mechanic's job and showing up with only a socket set and a screwdriver, and insisting you can do the job just fine without anything else. It'd be one thing if this guy said "Hey, I just thought I'd keep it simple for the audition, but I do have X,Y and Z pedals at home". But he didn't, and said he wasn't interested in having them. If he was auditioning for me, that would be the end of it.

 

And for what it's worth, the guy showed up with a LP and a Marshall, which leads me to believe that expense isn't the issue with this guy.

[wades_keys]

In this guy's case it ended before he left the audition. He failed to impress the guys he auditioned for with his tone - and then rather than picking up on the signals that were clearly being sent to him "uh, dude do you use any effects?"

It was an audition.

 

For all we know, he thought the band sucked and didn't want to be a part of it anyway.

 

IT WAS AN AUDITION. Why do people take the stance that the "band" is something that the auditionee should have to kiss ass to be a part of? It is a two way street, right?

 

So why in the hell start dictating demands to some dude that is auditioning for you when you haven't offered him jack {censored} - why should he have to kiss the bands ass under those circumstances?

 

[wades_keys]

 

No, but I do expect people I audition to show up with the tool they need for what I'm hiring them for. I don't see it much differently than trying out for a mechanic's job and showing up with only a socket set and a screwdriver. And for what it's worth, the guy showed up with a LP and a Marshall, which leads me to believe that expense isn't the issue with this guy.

 

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I and others prefer the rhythm guitarist to keep it simple, with no or minimal effects.

 

Just wasn't a good fit - doesn't mean he doesn't have the right tools; they're just not right for YOUR expectations.

 

And am I the only one that notices that conflict seems to follow ToneForHire?

 

It's always something - some fat chick groupie, a rogue guitarist, an angry wife....it's always something with that guy.

 

Not that I have a problem with that - it's entertaining.

[SpaceNorman]

 

It was an audition. For all we know, he thought the band sucked and didn't want to be a part of it anyway. IT WAS AN AUDITION.

 

 

All true and valid points Wade. Of course - there's always the possibility that he didn't think they sucked and actually wanted the gig. His lack of flexibility knocked him square out of the running.

 

I don't know about you - but when I go to an audition - my goal is to get offered the gig. Once offered, it's then up to me to decide whether or not I accept the gig. In the end, I prefer to be in the position that accepting the gig or not accepting the gig be MY choice.

 

I'd have played that situation very differently.

[wades_keys]

 

IMO, and I play a very wide range of music, a guitarist needs 3 sounds for a dance/rock cover band. A good clean sound (with a little chorus or something if you'd like, but not necessary), a good warm overdriven sound (like a tube overdrive), and a nice distorted sound.

 

and this.

 

Both workable solutions, employed by successful bands on a daily basis.

 

This is rock and roll - there ain't no rules.

 

Still don't see the problem with having the lead guitarist cover the effected parts - you take a guy that's not used to using effects and force that on him, and you're heading towards a sonic disaster.

 

Let the lead guy with the experience cover the effected parts, and let the rhythm player do what he does.

 

You guys liked his playing - it's a shame you can't find a way to work together.

 

Maybe you'll wind up with a "yes man" that'll go get the effects that you want him to use - that doesn't mean he'll use them efffectively and it doesn't mean you'll have a good band sound.

 

But hey - whatever works - it's your band.

[wades_keys]

 

All true and valid points Wade. Of course - there's always the possibility that he didn't think they sucked and actually wanted the gig. His lack of flexibility knocked him square out of the running. I don't know about you - but when I go to an audition - my goal is to get offered the gig. Once offered, it's then up to me to decide whether or not I accept the gig. In the end, I prefer to be in the position that accepting the gig or not accepting the gig be MY choice. I'd have played that situation very differently.

 

I'd have gone on down the road.

 

You don't start dictating demands to me as if I'm your bitch when you've given me absolutely no reason - you've made no offer - you've paid me no money.

 

At that point, it's MY time that I've spent on YOU.

 

And yeah, when I audition, I try to put my best foot forward.

 

But this stuff crosses the line IMO - again, show me the gigs, make me the offer, earn my trust.

 

THEN and only then will I entertain thoughts of investing money in your little endeavor.

 

Respect that, and respect that I may not be in the mood to kiss your ass to get in your precious little band - keep it real man.

 

You've never had to foot the bill for a failed pipe dream - never gone out and purchased something that then has no value to you because you were counting on being asked to join the band - never bought musical gear for the "betterment of the band" only to have someone pull the plug and leave you holding the bag?

[cooterbrown]

I'd have gone on down the road. You don't start dictating demands to me as if I'm your bitch when you've given me absolutely no reason - you've made no offer - you've paid me no money. At that point, it's MY time that I've spent on YOU. And yeah, when I audition, I try to put my best foot forward. But this stuff crosses the line IMO - again, show me the gigs, make me the offer, earn my trust. THEN and only then will I entertain thoughts of investing money in your little endeavor. Respect that, and respect that I may not be in the mood to kiss your ass to get in your precious little band - keep it real man. You've never had to foot the bill for a failed pipe dream - never gone out and purchased something that then has no value to you because you were counting on being asked to join the band - never bought musical gear for the "betterment of the band" only to have someone pull the plug and leave you holding the bag?

 

;)LOL...Dude...who pissed in your cornflakes, this morning? :poke:

[wades_keys]

;)LOL...Dude...who pissed in your cornflakes, this morning? :poke:

You're right - I'm venting.

 

Sorry.

 

I don't like being dictated to, and I suspect given ToneforHire's history of conflicts that they could have handled the situation a little more diplomatically.

 

I've got a lot going on at work and in my life right now - probably shouldn't be posting here and in fact I've backed off considerably on that.

 

Good teams don't dictate demands, they work together. This is true at work, and in bands.

 

If a guy is being stubborn, rather than dismiss him outright, try to find out why - the guy is a good player - he MAY be worth working with - he may also have been burned in the past and be in no mood to drop coin on something that has not been offered to him.

 

Again, I can't for the life of me figure out how you all can think that making these kinds of demands during an audition without an offer is the right way to go - I guess I'm wired different than y'all but that would piss me off in a big, big way.

[BlueStrat]

Different strokes for different folks.

That's what I'm saying!

 

I and others prefer the rhythm guitarist to keep it simple, with no or minimal effects.

A perfectly valid preference.

 

Just wasn't a good fit - doesn't mean he doesn't have the right tools; they're just not right for YOUR expectations.

Probably true, though I don't think I'd be alone in expecting a guy auditioning for as spot in a cover band to have a wider sonic palette to play with.

 

And am I the only one that notices that conflict seems to follow ToneForHire?

I don't. But I notice it follows you a lot. :poke:

 

This.

yeah, because as we all know, the only choice is using 22 fx at once or none at all.

 

 

I don't like being dictated to, and I suspect given ToneforHire's history of conflicts that they could have handled the situation a little more diplomatically.

 

Dictating? WTF? He asked the guy to have FX, the guy said no way, that's the end of it. Sheesh.

[wades_keys]

I don't. But I notice it follows you a lot. :poke:

Nah.

 

I'm Irish/Italian - debating is in my blood.

 

I get excited and passionate, but rarely angry.

 

When I'm angry I don't talk.

 

I bet if you met me I'd be nothing like you see from my typing on this forum: my bands have been relatively chill and drama free, and my life is the same way for the most part.

[SpaceNorman]

I'm gonna respond in three parts....

 

 

You don't start dictating demands to me as if I'm your bitch when you've given me absolutely no reason - you've made no offer - you've paid me no money. But this stuff crosses the line IMO - again, show me the gigs, make me the offer, earn my trust. THEN and only then will I entertain thoughts of investing money in your little endeavor.

 

 

I just went back through this thread and confirmed that the OP (ToneForHire) only posted once - the first thread that opened this. In it he states there are gigs on the books. While it never states conclusively whether or not they offered the guy the gig - the tone (..."the one guy we found"... "he refuses to") make me think they offered the guy the gig and are now experiencing buyer's remorse as they're coming to realize that the guy doesn't exhibit any flexibility.

 

 

 

Respect that, and respect that I may not be in the mood to kiss your ass to get in your precious little band - keep it real man.

 

 

With all due respect - I've never been part of an interview or an audition in which the interviewee / auditionee wasn't expected to demonstrate what they bring to the table as well as how they'll

fit

into the organzation. That's an observation made having been both an interviewee / auditionee as well as an interviewer / auditioner. A prospective new member who is either unwilling or unable to demonstrate their ability to be flexible and

fit

into the organization they're seeking to join typically doesn't get past the front door. That's not a expectation of ass kissing - that's simply reality.

 

 

 

You've never had to foot the bill for a failed pipe dream - never gone out and purchased something that then has no value to you because you were counting on being asked to join the band - never bought musical gear for the "betterment of the band" only to have someone pull the plug and leave you holding the bag?

 

 

The short and sweet answer is NO. I don't purchase things that have no value to me. When my toolkit (musical or otherwise) has had what conventional wisdom would consider a glaring hole in it - when either applying for or while in a position that had a reasonable need for it - I've

invested

in my tools. On the occasion when things didn't work out as envisioned - I never viewed it as "footing the bill for a failed pipe dream". I've always felt I was better prepared to take advantage of the next opportunity.

 

[NeverTheMachine]

The "no effects guy" is better than the guy who doesn't use pedals simply because he never thought to experiment. There are people like that who don't really experiment and just stay in their niche and more often than not they're just bedroom guitar players anyway.

 

Does he even have a tuner??

 

IMO, a guitarist who plays rhythm and lead needs at least a pedal for overdrive and another for boost (on leads). Any guitarist worth their salt can use their pickups alone to take that overdrive sound into more gritty distortion, if necessary.

 

I'll try to be specific to your situation now. You say he plays a cranked Marshall, so I guess he uses his volume knob to go from clean to overdrive and honestly that should be enough for most songs. But what effects are you talking about? Maybe you've got some extra pedals he can play around with?

 

I'd say if he at least has a tuner (a tuner with an input and output) not one of those tune to the side guys ... then give him a little slack if he's the good player you say he is. Maybe he honestly believes he doesn't need it, or maybe he doesn't want to spend money as a hired gun for your band. That's understandable I feel.

[tacdryver]

I want Andy Aledort in my band, he can do anything....

[NeverTheMachine]

Also, I'd be real careful about suggesting he get a small, multi effects unit. IMO, a lot of those things are junk and if he's got a decent guitar and amp a lot of multi effects unit wouldn't improve his sound.

 

+1000 Those things suck. The mere fact the OP mentioned it to him shows that he might not really know what he's talking about. THose arrogant lead guitarists

 

To my knowledge OP hasn't replied again in this thread. I'm curious to know what sounds he expects r guitar to have. What does a rhythm guitarist need a wah for? Modulation? wtf would a rhythm guitarist need that for, for maybe one song? Those things are usually expensive, he's not going to buy that for one song. And Fuzz? fuzz is awesome, but it's more of a studio effect IMO and if he's knew to pedals, setting up a fuzz pedal for live sound can be tricky. Ever turn on a mid range fuzz pedal before a cranked Marshall??