Wow... this was kind of depressing

[Lee Flier]

In a few threads recently, I've alluded to all the music fans there are in the world who rarely go out to clubs to see live bands, and how I think we as performing musicians need to work harder to reach those people as opposed to continuing to cater to the few remaining people who do go out.

 

Well, I just got off the phone with a co-worker (in my programming biz). He's a young guy, in his mid to late 20s, and he and his wife are big music fans. They enjoy a lot of different types of music, know a lot about music, have large CD collections, etc. They have my band's CDs and like them, know all the songs well, and always want to know what the band is up to. However, they've never come out to one of our gigs.

 

We got to talking on the phone just now about music festivals and concerts, since my band is about to go play a festival in Nashville. And my co-worker said, "Yeah, you know it's been a long time since we've been to a concert. I think that really, once I get a CD that I like, I don't really need to experience the live show."

 

Well. That kind of gave me pause. "Really? Wow. Why not?"

 

"Well," he said, "There are a lot of really catchy bands out now that sound good on studio recordings, because they have all these tricks to make them sound good, and I like the songs. But whenever I've gone to see any of these bands live, they aren't very good. It's gotten to the point where if I see a review of a band and it says 'visceral, raw energy' I feel it's probably going to suck, and just sound like noise. Plus, the sound is usually really bad at clubs, it's too loud and distorted."

 

"Wow," I said, "I guess that would be true of a lot of younger bands now. There are so many of my favorite artists who've made really good records, but they sound WAY better live."

 

Him: "I don't think I've ever seen that."

 

Me (jaw drops on floor).

 

Him: "But then, it's probably been several years since I've gone to see any live music, because when I did go, it just wasn't very good."

 

OK. Chew on that for a minute. This is a young guy who loves music, everything from acoustic folk to punk and hardcore. And he doesn't want to go out and see live music, and furthermore, he's not old enough to remember a time when most of the live music you'd see at a club was good, much of it even better than the recordings.

 

{censored}.

 

I gave him a few names of people he should go to see, who put on phenomenal live shows that I thought he'd like better than the records. He seemed pretty excited, although skeptical.

 

But how many people are there out there who are just like him?

[ac30guy]

Alot. I've seen bands that sound great on album and suck balls live (Taylor Swift...not that her albums are just awesome, but they're not crap). I've also seen the opposite, filled in for bands that sounded like trash on album, but were great live (of course I hadn't heard their albums prior to rehearsal and at that point I had already taken the gig), then there's the best bands that sound really good on album, and even better live, a great example IMO is John Mayer (his guitar driven albums...continuum, trio, etc). I don't go out to bars/clubs in my area much because the bands suck. They won't play what people want to hear, I've even heard a frontman say through the PA after the song they were playing that they didn't want to play that "crap" and were gonna play whatever the *#&$ they wanted to. Blues bands are pretty good in my area, and there's a couple rock bands I go see everytime they play because they're freakin awesome, but the majority of bands around here are terrible. The average bar/club musician has a squier/epiphone and a peavey 112 SS combo or a line6 full stack.

[jeff42]

In anothere thread I mentioned I go out and see cover bands every so often and lately I have been very let down. there are a lot of so-so bands in my area. There are some good ones but alot of ones that are just "meh." So if I get bored by them and I love music how about normal people that are not so forgiving?

[Dancebass]

He's Just Not That Into Us.

 

Sorry, if you REALLY are a music lover, you can't stay home.

[Lee Flier]

 

Sorry, if you REALLY are a music lover, you can't stay home.

 

 

What I'm saying is, I don't think this guy even realizes how great a live show can be, because he's never seen a great one. You'd have to accidentally stumble on a really good band, playing at a club with decent sound, and the odds of that anymore are slim.

 

I'd have stopped going out too if that had been the case when I was his age.

[TrickyBoy]

IMO, that experience is the exact reason that I hate to see other bands do poorly. I think a lot of people have the myopic view of: "If we kill everytime we play club XXX and the other bands flounder, it increases our value to club XXX". While this may be true, my attitude has always been, the more good bands there are to see live, the more people will enjoy their experiences seeing live music, the more often they will go to see live music and bring their friends.

 

And I think you can point your fingers in a lot of directions as to why there is this problem from hack musicianship to club owners that only care about the draw for that night, music quality be damned.

 

On the contrary, one thing that I've always believed and that this site has really reinforced is that regardless of what anyone says, there is still a large demand for GOOD live music. Now unfortunately because we're competing with the multi-media world, that means more than just sounding good. It means providing a complete entertainment package for the audience. But bands that are willing to take the time and effort to do that are succeeding and drawing people who don't otherwise go to see bands live. And this is in every market.

[Lee Flier]

IMO, that experience is the exact reason that I hate to see other bands do poorly. I think a lot of people have the myopic view of: "If we kill everytime we play club XXX and the other bands flounder, it increases our value to club XXX". While this may be true, my attitude has always been, the more good bands there are to see live, the more people will enjoy their experiences seeing live music, the more often they will go to see live music and bring their friends.

 

EXACTLY.

 

And I think you can point your fingers in a lot of directions as to why there is this problem from hack musicianship to club owners that only care about the draw for that night, music quality be damned.

 

Right on the money, again. That's exactly when this downhill slide started is when a lot of the clubs started going to a pay-to-play model or one step below that (which is, as you say, booking bands based on who can draw for one night rather than whether they're any good).

 

On the contrary, one thing that I've always believed and that this site has really reinforced is that regardless of what anyone says, there is still a large demand for GOOD live music. Now unfortunately because we're competing with the multi-media world, that means more than just sounding good. It means providing a complete entertainment package for the audience.

 

I dunno. That's one way to do it, but I've seen people do well without all that, if it suits the music and the performers are really bringing it.

[MyOLPRocks]

Kind of makes you miss 80s bands doesn't it? There was actually something to watch, high energy music, lots a chicks, epic guitar playing.....

[Lee Flier]

I hated 80s hair bands at the time and still do. I was working as a staff engineer back then and had to record WAY too many of those bands... and they were insufferable to work with, mainly because most of them were coked up and had giant egos and all sounded pretty much the same.

 

BUT, I'll say one thing for them: the level of musicianship with all of those guys was consistently high. You had to be pretty good to play that kind of stuff. I was more than happy when Nirvana came along and put the nail in the coffin for that whole thing, but y'know, you can be punk/indie/"alternative" and still be really good (for instance, in the 80s you had X and the Circle Jerks and the Replacements and... I could go on)... but most of those bands now just have no idea how to play unless somebody's patching stuff together in Pro Tools.

[Lee Flier]

 

So if I get bored by them and I love music how about normal people that are not so forgiving?

 

 

Yeah, exactly. People like my co-worker love music, but it's not their life. If all the bands they see suck, they just stay home and listen to recordings. They have no idea what they're missing and will probably never find out unless we all raise the bar, not to mention put some serious effort into reaching out to those people.

[germanicus2112]

I generally agree with your younger friend, and Im a musician who plays out fairly regularly. 80% of the time I prefer studio recordings over live bands. They just tend to be superior sonically generally. Its just my experience and this varies with the type of music. I think a studio recording and a live performance are totally different entities, and my expectations differ considerably for each. With a recording im getting something directly from the artist. Its not filtered by conditions out of their control (poor venue acoustics, poor PA, poor soundman etc.) Of course with a recording you dont have the experience of being present when the music is made, but for me I dont really care much about that, I care about what the music does for me in and of itself.

 

Much of this preference also has to do with the venues where most live music is performed, and also the nature of the music itself. Most live music is performed in places that are not in any appreciable way really designed for such, unless you are going to a genuine concert hall. Its the equivalent of going to see a movie with skylights and video game machines along the sides and a crooked screen.

 

Most of time live sound, even in the better of conditions for bands, is mediocre and tremendously compressed. I really enjoy live music when it is of the type that has a greater dynamic range, such as Jazz and ESPECIALLY classical music. Seeing a classical performance in a good hall cant really be replicated aurally over a home system. The same is generally not true IMO for most rock concerts.

 

I think live music is a diminishing entity. Its something you are seeing across all forms of entertainment. Sports attendance has been dropping as people are more interested in watching them at home. For better or for worse I think Live broadcast (via the internet) of musical concerts will be more the future for performers.

[3shiftgtr]

What I'm saying is, I don't think this guy even realizes how great a live show can be, because he's never seen a great one. You'd have to accidentally stumble on a really good band, playing at a club with decent sound, and the odds of that anymore are slim. I'd have stopped going out too if that had been the case when I was his age.

 

If he is listening to mostly punk and hardcore then I can see his point. Some of those bands wear their lack of musicianship as a badge of honor. It is a tricky thing to sound "raw" and not sound "suck".

 

Not hacking on the genre, just sayin' that the raw thing is hard to nail, and many bands just don't get it.

 

I saw Black Flag and Husker Du in the 80's....they GOT it. Flag freaked me out they were so good at it.....

[Lee Flier]

Much of this preference also has to do with the venues where most live music is performed, and also the nature of the music itself. Most live music is performed in places that are not in any appreciable way really designed for such, unless you are going to a genuine concert hall.

 

This is true, but it didn't really used to matter. Rock clubs have usually never been in the best of spaces, acoustically, but if you have a decent PA, a decent sound guy, and most importantly a good band, delivering the music with a passion that you can't capture on a recording, people would pack the place anyway.

 

I think the majority of bands now (whether original or cover) are formulaic and half-hearted about what they do, and many have a skill level to match. I don't mean that you have to be a really technically great player to play punk or alternative, but there's still a different kind of skill involved in playing that type of music that a lot of bands just don't have.

 

Seeing a classical performance in a good hall cant really be replicated aurally over a home system. The same is generally not true IMO for most rock concerts.

 

But there are definitely things about good rock concerts that can't be replicated over a home system. And I'm not just talking about the light show and the posing.

 

I think people are forgetting that, or as in the case of my co-worker, have never even experienced it.

 

I think live music is a diminishing entity. Its something you are seeing across all forms of entertainment. Sports attendance has been dropping as people are more interested in watching them at home. For better or for worse I think Live broadcast (via the internet) of musical concerts will be more the future for performers.

 

Question is, how do you make any money from that. People can't make a living selling records, they can't make a living playing to a few people in small clubs, can't make a living doing Internet broadcasts (although we do enjoy doing those and have made a bit of spare change and sold some merch that way). Music fans are shooting themselves in the foot by having this attitude, although they may not realize it.

 

I think any kind of revival of music as a really important cultural force is going to have to start with live performances at small venues. We need to figure out a way to make that work again. No one else is going to do it for us.

[Lee Flier]

If he is listening to mostly punk and hardcore then I can see his point. Some of those bands wear their lack of musicianship as a badge of honor. It is a tricky thing to sound "raw" and not sound "suck".

 

True, but that's not all he listens to. I'll have to ask him to elaborate more on the bands that he saw live.

 

Not hacking on the genre, just sayin' that the raw thing is hard to nail, and many bands just don't get it. I saw Black Flag and Husker Du in the 80's....they GOT it. Flag freaked me out they were so good at it.....

 

Yeah I saw them both too... same with the Circle Jerks... their original drummer was just .

 

I've never seen System Of A Down, but I'm sure from listening to their records that those guys can play. There are a few that can still bring it, but geez.

[Tubefox]

It depends a lot on the band. For example, I go to shows by local bands pretty often. They're rarely amazing, but it's five bucks and a fun way to kill a night.

 

On the other hand, a lot of nationally known acts cost too much money and aren't good enough live to merit spending it. Why spend thirty bucks when I can hear EXACTLY the same thing in my house?

 

I did go see Russian Circles yesterday, it was amazing. They are so loud that your brain doesn't even register them as loud. For the rest of the night I lost the midrange of my hearing and everything sounded like Master of Puppets.

 

That was worth eight bucks.

[rhat]

The issue i have with live festival type deals is usually they are a total rip off. The last one i attendned was a rib fest. The brisket was like eating rubber bands and fat ,, the beer was warm and expensive. the best band on the night was a high zoot cover band. Basically we left feeling like we had been robbed. It was not the music as much as the high costs for poor food and drink. I have just moved down to south padre,, which has a very active live music scene with good entertainement and good food. Even though the summer season just ended ,,, the clubs are not doing too bad. The big rock night club with the killer house band, and and massive PA system has closed. You could see this failure comming two years ago. People just dont go for that night club party band atmosphere down here enough of the year to support the place. Its a smaller club scene. Its a very competitive market and you have to deliver food, drinks and good entertainment to make it.

[Dancebass]

There is also the lack of community to take into consideration. People use to go to nightclubs to meet the opposite sex. That's handled on-line pretty often these days. Other similar small bites as well of course.

[rhat]

 

There is also the lack of community to take into consideration. People use to go to nightclubs to meet the opposite sex. That's handled on-line pretty often these days. Other similar small bites as well of course.

 

 

 

Maybe people are getting smarter,,, when you think about it ,, a bar isnt the greatest place to meet the woman of your dreams. Odds are too good of meeting an drunk , espeically as you get older.

[TrickyBoy]

 

It depends a lot on the band. For example, I go to shows by local bands pretty often. They're rarely amazing, but it's five bucks and a fun way to kill a night. On the other hand, a lot of nationally known acts cost too much money and aren't good enough live to merit spending it. Why spend thirty bucks when I can hear EXACTLY the same thing in my house? I did go see Russian Circles yesterday, it was amazing. They are so loud that your brain doesn't even register them as loud. For the rest of the night I lost the midrange of my hearing and everything sounded like Master of Puppets. That was worth eight bucks.

 

 

I think I'm really in agreement with much of your sentiment here. I see 3-4 live local bands a month. I really enjoy a lot of them, both original and cover. But I have no real interest in going to a "big" concert. I mean, they're just circuses, whether the music is really being performed live or not is often in question and I get a much better view if I just wait for the DVD to come out.

 

One of the worst concert experiences I ever had was seeing U2 on the Zoo TV tour (early 90's). It was so painfully silly and overdone. Made the shows that the hair metal bands put on in the 80's look moderate by comparison. That stuff just doesn't interest me. It's gotten for me that I'll go see Prince every time I can catch his show, otherwise, I'd rather see a local or regional band.

[TrickyBoy]

 

I dunno. That's one way to do it, but I've seen people do well without all that, if it suits the music and the performers are really bringing it.

 

 

I don't know what "all that" is. My point is that IME, people who are really moved to see good musicianship are generally going to go out and see a good musician when they come around. However, I think there needs to be an additional entertainment aspect to the show in addition to that. That way they leave thinking "That was really good AND a really fun time". YMMV

 

Believe me (as you'll see in what I just posted), I'm not in any way advocating creating a circus. Honestly to me, it's just the opposite. It's finding ways outside of just standing there and playing tunes to engage a wider audience than would be engaged otherwise.

[kmart]

You know, I'm not going to discount anything that's been said in this thread so far, as it's all true and or most likley part of the issue with Lee's co-worker example.

 

But this particular part really made me think:

 

"Well," he said, "There are a lot of really catchy bands out now that sound good on studio recordings, because they have all these tricks to make them sound good, and I like the songs. But whenever I've gone to see any of these bands live, they aren't very good. It's gotten to the point where if I see a review of a band and it says 'visceral, raw energy' I feel it's probably going to suck, and just sound like noise.

 

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that this guy has just somehow developed a preference for clean studio recordings vs. live, and no matter HOW GOOD the band is, or how good the mix/PA are, a concert is just not for him. I've met people like that; they really only like to listen to music in the pre-recorded idiom, and don't click with 'live' the way most, or at least many of us do.

 

Could just be that the guy never went to see 'that killer show' while he was in his formative high school like many of us did. You know the one I'm talking about...the one that you couldn't stop talking about to your friends for the next 3 months? Sure, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he'd ALSO been to a number of lame/sub-par live shows, but I'd find it hard to believe someone would go see their favorite act in concert, for example, and not think that there was just something intrinsically great about live shows...

 

We should all consider ourselves lucky that we had those opportunities...I know I really appreciate having an older brother who had some connections while I was still in my early teens, and who'd get me into any/every club gig I wanted to see. I can think of half a dozen shows I went to just when I was 15-16 that I rate among the best concerts I've ever been to...

[tucktronix]

 

You know, I'm not going to discount anything that's been said in this thread so far, as it's all true and or most likley part of the issue with Lee's co-worker example. But this particular part really made me think: I'd bet dollars to donuts that this guy has just somehow developed a preference for clean studio recordings vs. live, and no matter HOW GOOD the band is, or how good the mix/PA are, a concert is just not for him. I've met people like that; they really only like to listen to music in the pre-recorded idiom, and don't click with 'live' the way most, or at least many of us do. Could just be that the guy never went to see 'that killer show' while he was in his formative high school like many of us did. You know the one I'm talking about...the one that you couldn't stop talking about to your friends for the next 3 months? Sure, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he'd ALSO been to a number of lame/sub-par live shows, but I'd find it hard to believe someone would go see their favorite act in concert, for example, and not think that there was just something intrinsically great about live shows... We should all consider ourselves lucky that we had those opportunities...I know I really appreciate having an older brother who had some connections while I was still in my early teens, and who'd get me into any/every club gig I wanted to see. I can think of half a dozen shows I went to just when I was 15-16 that I rate among the best concerts I've ever been to...

 

 

I was thinking the same thing, myself:thu:

[Lee Flier]

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts that this guy has just somehow developed a preference for clean studio recordings vs. live, and no matter HOW GOOD the band is, or how good the mix/PA are, a concert is just not for him.

 

 

Yeah, that thought did cross my mind. And that would be even more depressing.

 

I don't know if it's the case with this guy, though, because I'm familiar with some of the recordings he likes, and a lot of them don't sound like typical modern productions.

 

 

Could just be that the guy never went to see 'that killer show' while he was in his formative high school like many of us did. You know the one I'm talking about...the one that you couldn't stop talking about to your friends for the next 3 months?

 

 

Yep.

 

 

Sure, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he'd ALSO been to a number of lame/sub-par live shows, but I'd find it hard to believe someone would go see their favorite act in concert, for example, and not think that there was just something intrinsically great about live shows...

 

 

I don't know that he has a real favorite act. He likes a wide variety of stuff, and doesn't seem particularly invested much in any one artist. And I think a lot of younger people are like that. They just want to hear a good song and a good performance, they don't care so much who it is.

 

So it's quite possible that my co-worker just has heard a lot of different bands he likes on record, went to see some of them live and they weren't very good, and just quit going. That's what it sounded like to me. It also sounded like the bands that he chose to go see live were playing at smaller clubs, and they were cheap, so as a broke high school or college kid that's what he went to see. I don't know that he ever went to a "big" concert or whether that would've made any more of an impression on him. I'll have to ask him.

[rhat]

 

Yeah, that thought did cross my mind. And that would be even more depressing. I don't know if it's the case with this guy, though, because I'm familiar with some of the recordings he likes, and a lot of them don't sound like typical modern productions. Yep. I don't know that he has a real favorite act. He likes a wide variety of stuff, and doesn't seem particularly invested much in any one artist. And I think a lot of younger people are like that. They just want to hear a good song and a good performance, they don't care so much who it is. So it's quite possible that my co-worker just has heard a lot of different bands he likes on record, went to see some of them live and they weren't very good, and just quit going. That's what it sounded like to me. It also sounded like the bands that he chose to go see live were playing at smaller clubs, and they were cheap, so as a broke high school or college kid that's what he went to see. I don't know that he ever went to a "big" concert or whether that would've made any more of an impression on him. I'll have to ask him.

 

 

 

Lots of people tend to hit a time in their lives where their entertainment and soclal lives revolve around the house. yard parties , BBQs offer alot more bang for the buck. the night club bar scene is more geared to the young and single and the older and retired .... most of the people inbetween are working too hard to spend the extra to go out. latter 30s to early 50s ,, have have alot of things pulling on the income. Its a stay at home and eat steak vs go out and eat burgers type decision. thow in the drunk driving ,, the non smoking bars and its pretty well a no brainer for alot of these mid live people to just stay home to do their social thing.

[backtoblue]

One of the worst concert experiences I ever had was seeing U2 on the Zoo TV tour (early 90's).

 

One of the greatest concert experiences of my life!

 

Anyway, one positive (at least for the fan) that I've seen regarding the live scene is that due to the economy as well as other reasons mentioned here, like waning interest in going to out, etc., that alot of bigger name artists are playing smaller venues and tickets are cheaper. Several smaller gen admission type venues around here are bringing in some good acts that just a few years ago, would have been playing smaller arenas.