Why...

[cooterbrown]

...can't keyboard players play "Don't Stop Believin" correctly?

They get the voicings wrong in the piano part, then they either don't play the synth parts, correctly, or (even worse), continue to play the piano part throughout the rest of the song. Are they deaf? Talentless? Lazy?

The song isn't rocket science.

 

We played a festival yesterday, where they had two stages with two bands a piece.

(not simultaniously - they did that to eliminate dead air...we set up after the second band was done and the third band was playing)

All three bands before us played "DSB", all had keyboardists, and none of them got their part right. These were all decent-to-very good bands, too...I don't get it.

[Tomkeen]

I know I always played it right . Even my backing vocals weren't bad..

 

Why most keyboardists don't play it correctly? Don't know to be honest... I never even heard a band playing DSB. They're probably just lazy...

[jwlussow]

It

[cooterbrown]

Every single one of them voiced a full B, instead of a B5 to begin the song, and two of them weren't following the correct voice-leading, but just like hammering out full triads.

While the third one was close to the correct voicings, he didn't play the synth parts the rest of the song.

He just kept playing the piano sound and chords on the second verse and solo...playing 8th note block chords on the choruses.

[jwlussow]

playing 8th note block chords on the choruses.

 

You have got to be kidding? Slap that lazy loser around.

[rhat]

Every single one of them voiced a full B, instead of a B5 to begin the song, and two of them weren't following the correct voice-leading, but just like hammering out full triads. While the third one was close to the correct voicings, he didn't play the synth parts the rest of the song. He just kept playing the piano sound and chords on the second verse and solo...playing 8th note block chords on the choruses.

 

I would guess its because they are all not as good as you are. its not like keyboard players are comming out of the woodwork ,, so alot of keyboard guys end up in some pretty good bands that are just average rather than super stars at the instrument.

[wades_keys]

I would guess its because they are all not as good as you are. its not like keyboard players are comming out of the woodwork ,, so alot of keyboard guys end up in some pretty good bands that are just average rather than super stars at the instrument.

Or they hate the song and are sandbagging it.

 

Keyboard players tend to be the crotchiest folks on the stage.

 

Nothing worse than taking a jazz/classical/fusion cat and "forcing" him to play cheez pop. Some dudes are adaptable, some just say they are yet it becomes obvious that they don't put the work in on the tunes that they despise. But give em a song they like and they'll have it note perfect, even if it's tough as hell.

 

Then there's just the talentless dudes that can't play anything right.

 

I've sandbagged tunes a time or two, I'll admit: because it literally PAINS me to play along with and do the deep listening to get the voicings note perfect.

[Vito Corleone]

Sometimes it happens out of "song-snobbery". Players don't bother to spend time to learn a song correctly when they feel it is too simple, beneath them, or they just plain don't like very much.

 

I see guitarists do this all the time with Rolling Stones songs. They feel they "know" the song well enough from having heard it a million time, know the basic chord structure and riff, and then just wing it. By thinking they are somehow 'better' than a particular song, they end up {censored}ing it up.

 

Maybe the same thing with "DSB": They know the chords, know the riff in their head, and figure that's enough. They don't take the time to listen to it closely enough to know that there's no 3rd in the B chord, or that the piano drops out once the synth part starts.

[tim_7string]

He just kept playing the piano sound and chords on the second verse and solo...playing 8th note block chords on the choruses.

 

God, that makes me cringe just thinking about it.

 

Either they're too lazy to take the time to get it right (most likely), they don't care (almost the same thing, but scarier), or they just don't have a good enough ear to get the parts down. I always spent a lot of time working on songs when I was the full-time keyboardist in the band. I kept rewinding tapes over and over until I got it right.

 

Part of the joy of playing music for me is to duplicate interesting chord voicings, rather than dumbing them down into very basic major or minor forms. It also makes me feel good when people recognize that effort and compliment me. Keyboardists that don't even consider using inversions really, really get on my nerves.

[wades_keys]

Sometimes it happens out of "song-snobbery". Players don't bother to spend time to learn a song correctly when they feel it is too simple, beneath them, or they just plain don't like very much. I see guitarists do this all the time with Rolling Stones songs. They feel they "know" the song well enough from having heard it a million time, know the basic chord structure and riff, and then just wing it. By thinking they are somehow 'better' than a particular song, they end up {censored}ing it up. Maybe the same thing with "DSB": They know the chords, know the riff in their head, and figure that's enough. They don't take the time to listen to it closely enough to know that there's no 3rd in the B chord, or that the piano drops out once the synth part starts.

Exactly.

 

That's what I was saying too, and I bet EVERYONE has dones this a time or two over the years.

 

I try not to make a habit out of it: that's why in the rare case if I know I can't give the song what it needs, I'll vote it down. Life's too short to play songs that suck - there is a fine line somewhere.

 

You know, as I search my memory banks, it occurs to me that I've bagged a part or two when I knew that someone else in the band would not come through on their part; it's just a work decision I make so I don't put in too much time on something that is doomed. But those tunes never make it out of the basement, so no harm, no foul.

 

I remember one that I should have bagged: "Come Sail Away" - man, I spent hours getting all the programming and patch transitions locked down, learning the piano part and synth leads, setting up dual keyboard splits and layers....Only to have the vocalist tank it to the point where there was no way I'd ever want to gig the tune.

[Vito Corleone]

In the spirit of full disclosure: I (thought I) listened to the song pretty closely when I worked it up, but didn't catch there was no 3rd in the "B" chord. I play it with the 3rd. I guess maybe I just heard a voicing in my head that wasn't there? That's happened to me before.

 

I'll have to go back now and re-listen to it more closely.

 

Too bad we just recorded a bit of it for a demo a couple of weeks ago...

[Vito Corleone]

 

Exactly. That's what I was saying too, and I bet EVERYONE has dones this a time or two over the years.

Oh yeah, I think we all have. But I try hard to avoid doing it. It's really just laziness.

 

 

Life's too short to play songs that suck - there is a fine line somewhere.

 

 

"suck" is so subjective though. If we didn't do songs because any single member of the band could vote it down because they personally thought it sucked and couldn't give the part 100%, we'd never play anything. I'm going to vote down a song because I don't like it if the other guys all do? Or, more importantly, if the audience really likes it? That would be completely counter-productive to the larger goals and vision.

 

It's much better to man-up, be a pro, and play the song to the best of my ability. Nothing will prompt me to give a band member the axe quicker than someone who purposely dog songs because they don't personally like them.

[wades_keys]

 

Oh yeah, I think we all have. But I try hard to avoid doing it. It's really just laziness. "suck" is so subjective though. If we didn't do songs because any single member of the band could vote it down because they personally thought it sucked and couldn't give the part 100%, we'd never play anything. I'm going to vote down a song because I don't like it if the other guys all do? Or, more importantly, if the audience really likes it? That would be completely counter-productive to the larger goals and vision. It's much better to man-up, be a pro, and play the song to the best of my ability. Nothing will prompt me to give a band member the axe quicker than someone who purposely dog songs because they don't personally like them.

 

I agree a 100%. In reality, I think I've shot down only one song that "I" didn't want to play; but it also wasn't an "A list" tune by any stretch.

 

I'll suck up and play an "A list" tune that I can't stand if I know it will work for our crowd, and I'll learn it right or as close to right as we usually get, ya know?

 

My criteria for suck, which meets the goals of the band:

1: Every other band around here plays the song. We will make one or two exceptions to this rule, but no more.

2: We won't do it justice due to vocal limitations (harmonies mostly)

3: We won't do it justice due to lack of instruments (full time keys, usually)

4: We already have enough tunes in this genre, and are lacking in other genres.

[mstreck]

 

I agree a 100%. In reality, I think I've shot down only one song that "I" didn't want to play; but it also wasn't an "A list" tune by any stretch. I'll suck up and play an "A list" tune that I can't stand if I know it will work for our crowd, and I'll learn it right or as close to right as we usually get, ya know?

 

 

I view that as "Cover Band 101" - and too many just don't get it, for whatever reason. But that makes it better for those of us who do. People start telling you that you sound "just like the record", but it's not because we actually *sound* just like the record. It's because we make an effort to play the parts as correctly as possible, with stress on the word "effort".

 

See sig for more...

[rhat]

 

I view that as "Cover Band 101" - and too many just don't get it, for whatever reason. But that makes it better for those of us who do. People start telling you that you sound "just like the record", but it's not because we actually *sound* just like the record. It's because we make an effort to play the parts as correctly as possible, with stress on the word "effort". See sig for more...

 

 

I think alot of times people tell you stuff like that ,, just because they really like the band and the people in it. there is alot more to this entertainment stuff than nailing a note for note cover just like the record. It does have to be close enough for rock and roll though and tight. very few people will pick up that the sweet home piano solo isnt like the record ,,,, they pick up on the vibe , the groove and the fact that they like the band. Ya gotta make the night about them ,, thats the important part. Note for note stuff is kinda inside baseball that we notice alot more than they do. no excuse for not doing the best you can do though. but its really not the whole ballgame

[SpaceNorman]

I'd probably want to know how "new" the material is to the keyboard player before I passed any judgement on the guy. I'm of the opinion that the criteria for judging a player who is in his element (i.e., his band) playing material he should know inside and out is different than the criteria for a guy who may be a sub or relatively new to a group.

 

I do a reasonable amount of sub work - and could easily be criticized for not playing many songs right if you catch me on a night I'm subbing. I can't tell you how many times I find myself playing tunes that I've never actually worked on - instead relying on a 15 second explanation of the chord structure and a vague memory of hearing the tune back when it first came out.

[wades_keys]

 

I think alot of times people tell you stuff like that ,, just because they really like the band and the people in it. there is alot more to this entertainment stuff than nailing a note for note cover just like the record. It does have to be close enough for rock and roll though and tight. very few people will pick up that the sweet home piano solo isnt like the record ,,,, they pick up on the vibe , the groove and the fact that they like the band. Ya gotta make the night about them ,, thats the important part. Note for note stuff is kinda inside baseball that we notice alot more than they do. no excuse for not doing the best you can do though. but its really not the whole ballgame

 

I agree with all that.

 

Call it the "live version". Hell, a lot of the original performers change their songs up for live, to avoid patch changes or hard to hit parts, or just to change up the song.

 

That's why if a studio part is too tough to do live consistently, I'll look and try to find a live recording from the same artist - more often than not I'll find that they are using a shortuct there too, and I'll cop that instead of teh studio part.

 

But it's been a while since I've had to worry about that, since I don't play keys full time; when I do keys + bass, by definition I'm playing it differently than the record because my left hand is triggering a string bass patch.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I think alot of times people tell you stuff like that ,, just because they really like the band and the people in it. there is alot more to this entertainment stuff than nailing a note for note cover just like the record. It does have to be close enough for rock and roll though and tight. very few people will pick up that the sweet home piano solo isnt like the record ,,,, they pick up on the vibe , the groove and the fact that they like the band. Ya gotta make the night about them ,, thats the important part. Note for note stuff is kinda inside baseball that we notice alot more than they do. no excuse for not doing the best you can do though. but its really not the whole ballgame

 

 

I agree with that pretty much. A lot of it is attitude and energy. Play the song like you own it and a lot of people will think you sound "just like the record" even though us musicians know we didn't even really come all that close to copying the original recording note-for-note.

[cooterbrown]

In the spirit of full disclosure: I (thought I) listened to the song pretty closely when I worked it up, but didn't catch there was no 3rd in the "B" chord. I play it with the 3rd. I guess maybe I just heard a voicing in my head that wasn't there? That's happened to me before. I'll have to go back now and re-listen to it more closely. Too bad we just recorded a bit of it for a demo a couple of weeks ago...

 

Heh, busted...and I typo'd B5 instead of E5 in that previous post.

But yeah, it starts out E5 (B-E-B), then moves the E finger to F# to make a B5, etc...

[Vito Corleone]

 

Heh, busted...and I typo'd B5 instead of E5 in that previous post. But yeah, it starts out E5 (B-E-B), then moves the E finger to F# to make a B5, and so on...the fingering is actually pretty clever.

 

 

I still play it mostly with the 3rds. Although I tend to de-emphasize those when I play it I think---either through a subconcious effort to have it sound most 'right', or just serendipitously poor playing. I've always 'heard' the 3rds on the E and B chords, but like I said, it wouldn't be the first time my brain 'heard' notes that weren't actually there.

 

I'll take a listen to it later. Right now I'm stuck in midi-module hell. I've got a patch/channel effects problem I can't seem to trace and it's driving me freakin' crazy!

 

Time for another beer. It might sound better after one....

[Vito Corleone]

This was a funny song for us to learn in the first place. It wasn't one where I did the typical method of choosing the song, sending out MP3s to everyone, have them learn their parts, and then we all get together and work it out.

 

This one came about from getting tons of requests for it, so I would just start playing it and let the crowd sing along for as long as we could all fumble through it. We eventually figured we needed to actually add it to the set list, so then everyone went back and learned the 'right' parts. (Well, most of us did anyway, apparently....) But other than the bass player and I working out the accents through the intro and verses we've never spent any real time rehearsing it.

[Vito Corleone]

oh {censored}... I just listened to it....

 

Not only have I been playing it COMPLETELY wrong, but not only are the right voicing easy to hear, but are easier to play than what I was doing....

 

what a goober.

 

And now I'm stuck with all that WRONG playing on my demo....

 

I may actually spend the money to go back and fix it, I'm so embarrassed...

[TrickyBoy]

oh {censored}... I just listened to it.... Not only have I been playing it COMPLETELY wrong, but not only are the right voicing easy to hear, but are easier to play than what I was doing.... what a goober. And now I'm stuck with all that WRONG playing on my demo.... I may actually spend the money to go back and fix it, I'm so embarrassed...

 

FWIW, I play the third in the B and A (not the E though). Then again, I play it on guitar :poke:

 

I never sat down with the record to create the guitar part I play. It was a song that I could sing in my head, so I just figured it out. I should probably take 10 minutes and actually play along with the recording and see how close I really am.

[Vito Corleone]

FWIW, I play the third in the B and A (not the E though). Then again, I play it on guitar :poke: I never sat down with the record to create the guitar part I play. It was a song that I could sing in my head, so I just figured it out. I should probably take 10 minutes and actually play along with the recording and see how close I really am.

 

Playing it on guitar already buys you some room for interpretation, to be sure.

 

What is bugging me isn't so much that I was leaving in the 3rds on the E and the B (I'm pretty sure the 3rd IS there on the A, but obviously I COULD BE WRONG...) but I wasn't playing the 7th on the C#m. (Really just playing that same E5 from the first chord with a C# bass.)

 

I was playing a full C#m chord.

[KeysBear]

Usually I will look around to see if there is one guy listening really intently and paying attention to my hand placement on the keyboard. When I spot him I know there's a keyboard player in the audience so I go out of my way to play lame voicings and obnoxiously simple triads to frustrate him until he leaves. That's job security because that way he won't come backstage later trying to meet up with the other guys in my band.

 

I actually played DSB a few years back when we had a guy who could nail the Steve Perry vocals. I listened to the mp3 a couple of times then took my best shot at it. My girlfriend liked it enough to make my evening special so that was all I cared about. I got paid. Drunk people danced. It was all good. Personally when I'm playing keys I NEVER care if I'm 100% right with a version and try my best to avoid playing with people who do. We make the songs our own and have a lot more fun that way. Sort of kidding around a bit because I actually have 100% confidence that whatever I play is usually nailing the original version or making it better. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head if it's a B5, a B3 or a Farfisa, but to me it's the groove, the feel, and making a tasteful effort.