Gibson guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis raided by federal agents

[jwlussow]

 

SO why did they do it? Why have they been holding wood products they took in a raid since 2009 and havent brought charges? Why did they go back in last week? Under who's jurisdiction and orders did they make the raid both time? Is the dept of justice operating without communications with their boss, the president? This is the real question.

 

 

Do you honestly believe that the President is personally responsible for every investigation done by every branch of Government? Do you really believe that this Gibson story equals a pimple on a gnat's ass considering the Justice Department is probably handling 10s of thousands of investigations as we speak? No wonder the President is so busy. Even if he did know is he supposed to tell them that we should ignore the fact that they are indeed importing illegal woods. They are buying from the black market and illegally importing items but it is OK because it is Gibson? I suppose the Canadian drug market should be treated the same. The US isn't creating the problem, it's the Indians and Canadians. Why are so many people defending a company that is breaking the law in two countries (yes, it is illegal to import items that are known to be obtained through illegal means)? Which is it? I'm confused.

[jwlussow]

Oh c'mon guys...take it to the politics thread...I want more music talk in BWTB! Sorta related note to this: I was contracted to play a "tea-party" rally during the last presidential election...and I should have known better... I'm a long-haired d00d...I stepped out onto the stage (about 500ish people in the local downtown common) and I got boo-ed before I played the first note, hell before I even plugged in! So I did what I would later regret... Instead of playing my first prepared song I changed it to Imagine by Lennon... When I got to the line "...Imagine there's no heaven..." OH MAN!!! :eek: those tea-partiers would have shot me if they could...I could FEEL the hate from the stage!

 

I, for one applaud your reaction. It should not be whether or not you agree, it should be about the fact you would be willing to listen. I still get a lot of grief from friends and family about some of the music I play.

 

I went to a church service with a college friend many years ago and the whole service was about destroying Barry Manilow records because of the song "I Write the Songs". You see, only two beings are capable of writing songs and Barry Manilow is not God. I am 100% serious. People brought in Manilow records because this Church believed him to be the Devil. This was a large Baptist Church, not a smaller cult church. This was in an affluent suburb of Chicago. Extremists can be scary, especially if you do not believe their "truths".

[TIMKEYS]

Do you honestly believe that the President is personally responsible for every investigation done by every branch of Government? Do you really believe that this Gibson story equals a pimple on a gnat's ass considering the Justice Department is probably handling 10s of thousands of investigations as we speak? No wonder the President is so busy. Even if he did know is he supposed to tell them that we should ignore the fact that they are indeed importing illegal woods. They are buying from the black market and illegally importing items but it is OK because it is Gibson? I suppose the Canadian drug market should be treated the same. The US isn't creating the problem, it's the Indians and Canadians. Why are so many people defending a company that is breaking the law in two countries (yes, it is illegal to import items that are known to be obtained through illegal means)? Which is it? I'm confused.

 

 

First off it no doubt is a big deal to gibson and the employees that got sent out of the plznts, when you consider that the goverment has already confiscated a half a million dollars of materials without ever bringing forward any charges.

 

Second,,, you have just convicted gibson of a crime in your post, when this deal has never had any charges filed or been to court. this is twice the justice dept has raided gibson.

 

As for this not being big enough for our president to be aware of ,,,I tend to question that. Two raids on the nations largest guitar maker seems like a pretty big deal. I think you should spend a little time reviewing this deal and come back and post where you are a little more informed. You seem to have some facts confused.

[iblastoff]

 

As for this not being big enough for our president to be aware of ,,,I tend to question that. Two raids on the nations largest guitar maker seems like a pretty big deal. I think you should spend a little time reviewing this deal and come back and post where you are a little more informed. You seem to have some facts confused.

 

 

you'd have to be a complete {censored}ing nutjob to question that. wow! no wonder the US is in such shambles. you seriously think some raids on some guitar makers are a big deal in the scheme of things? yah i'm sure they're right up there on the governments priority list.

[TIMKEYS]

you'd have to be a complete {censored}ing nutjob to question that . wow! no wonder the US is in such shambles. you seriously think some raids on some guitar makers are a big deal in the scheme of things? yah i'm sure they're right up there on the governments priority list.

 

 

Yea, i happen to think that two raids by the federal goverment since 2009 where production is interrupted and inventory confiscated without any charges being filed is a big deal. I also think if you want to discuss this that you really should try to follow the terms of service of harmony central.

[jwlussow]

you'd have to be a complete {censored}ing nutjob to question that. wow! no wonder the US is in such shambles. you seriously think some raids on some guitar makers are a big deal in the scheme of things? yah i'm sure they're right up there on the governments priority list.

 

See. It's the Indians and Canadiens fault.

 

I agree. This country has bigger problems then this. This is really nothing in the big picture.

[jwlussow]

 

Yea, i happen to think that two raids by the federal goverment since 2009 where production is interrupted and inventory confiscated without any charges being filed is a big deal. I also think if you want to discuss this that you really should try to follow the terms of service of harmony central.

 

 

The problem is when they got their wrist slapped with the first raid that collected illegal wood, they just kept on doing the same thing. I'm willing to bet that there will be charges this time since they disregarded the warning after the last bust.

 

So they said, "F*** Off America", and you blindly follow them. So what is it, breaking the law is OK as long as you ignore the agency that is busting you? Oh, I can't find where Gibson is the largest manufacturer in the US. Most places say Fender is.

 

I guess those employees should be concerned. They work for a company that breaks the law. Is that enough of a reason to allow them to keep doing it?

[jwlussow]

 

SO why did they do it? Why have they been holding wood products they took in a raid since 2009 and havent brought charges? Why did they go back in last week? Under who's jurisdiction and orders did they make the raid both time? Is the dept of justice operating without communications with their boss, the president? This is the real question.

 

 

 

Look what a little searching did. The US filed suit in June 2011. The second raid was after Gibson continued to break the Lacey Act. Gibson was also rated the worse place to work in the US. They dropped from #5 in 2008 to #1 in 2009. They have held the title since. I'm thinking at least some of those employees are thrilled that this company is finally getting some of what it deserves. Here is the article:

 

The Nashville-based guitar manufacturer has been investigated for violating the Lacey Act. The Lacey act was amended in 2009 to include wood products. On November 17, 2009 federal authorities seized six guitars and several pallets of alleged endangered and illegal, rare ebony wood purchased by Gibson which was stored at the company's factory.[16][17] Until the investigation has been concluded, Henry E. Juszkiewicz, CEO and Chairman of Gibson Guitar Corporation, has taken a leave of absence as a board member of the Rainforest Alliance.[18] In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[19][20] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.[20]

Gibson Guitar's offices and factories in Nashville and Memphis were raided again by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife on August 24, 2011, although no details were released about the nature of the raid or what was found due to the ongoing legal proceedings.[16] However, according to a statement issued by Gibson Guitar the following day, these raids focused on rare wood imported from India.[21]

August 25, 2011, the day following the raid, Henry Juszkiewicz, Chairman and CEO of Gibson Guitar Corporation, gave a thorough public response, offering evidence of Gibson's innocence and noting that specific charges are yet to be filed. A news release issued by Gibson the same day asserts that "Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of ANY wrong doing."

The charges against the company constitute a felony, and if proven, the company could face large fines and the executives involved could face jail terms.[22] Prior to the initial raid, Gibson Guitar was considered a progressive company for its promotion of sustainability and forest certification.[22] Although the Rainforest Alliance certified the wood used by Gibson Guitar,[20] its FSC certificates only applied to specific product lines. In the case of the wood from Madagascar, the wood could not have been used in products labeled or sold as FSC-certified.[22]

 

[TIMKEYS]

The problem is when they got their wrist slapped with the first raid that collected illegal wood, they just kept on doing the same thing . I'm willing to bet that there will be charges this time since they disregarded the warning after the last bust. So they said, "F*** Off America", and you blindly follow them. So what is it, breaking the law is OK as long as you ignore the agency that is busting you? Oh, I can't find where Gibson is the largest manufacturer in the US. Most places say Fender is. I guess those employees should be concerned. They work for a company that breaks the law . Is that enough of a reason to allow them to keep doing it?

 

 

 

From my understanding of this deal. Gibson has never had any charges filed against them on this, and its never been to court in either raid. In fact the only court case is one thats scheduled to take place where gibson is going to court to get their wood back from the 2009 raid. Can you post any links that show where gibson has been convicted of anything or even charged?

 

You seem to be shooting from the hip on your post trying to say gibson is breaking the law. Would you mind showing us some proof of your claim?

[jwlussow]

 

From my understanding of this deal. Gibson has never had any charges filed against them on this, and its never been to court in either raid. In fact the only court case is one thats scheduled to take place where gibson is going to court to get their wood back from the 2009 raid. Can you post any links that show where gibson has been convicted of anything or even charged? You seem to be shooting from the hip on your post trying to say gibson is breaking the law. Would you mind showing us some proof of your claim?

 

 

OK, the government raided Gibson and Filed suit against them in June. You stated no charges have been filed after two raids when in fact, the Government raided Gibson in 2009, filed charges in June 2011 then raided them again in August 2011. Sounds like charges have been filed although, I concede, they have not been convicted.

 

In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[19][20] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.

 

They knew they were getting illegal wood from illegal sources. Even if they claim they did not know, ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse.

[TIMKEYS]

The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement. They knew they were getting illegal wood from illegal sources. Even if they claim they did not know, ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse.

 

 

 

 

You did a copy and paste direct from Wikipedia. I think if you do further research you will find that the text you lifted may be somthing that you should do further research on. can you find another source thats official? I could find no place where the justice dept has filed any charges against gibson resulting from that first raid.

 

I read that Wikipedia deal on gibson. It seems to have a good deal of political bias along with its information on gibson. I think they are mistaken when they said that charges were filed against gibson. Anything i found on it said that the department of justice raided as part of an investigation. I found nothing offical where charges have been filed.

 

If you find anything formal ,, please post it. we do want to be sure that what we are posting on here is correct.

 

 

Have you ever been in a guitar factory and seen the raw materials they buy? Fret boards typically come in as blank pieces of wood with very little finish work done to the. It would be impossable for suppliers to do any more work on them than just a rough out due to the fact that every manufacturer has differnt shaped necks and frets. It would be vary hard for a wood suppier to provide wood finished to any higher degree than a basic rough out of wood about the size of a fret board. It might be wise to do a little more research before you start convicting companies of crimes on your own or from reading things like Wikipedia

[jwlussow]

I should probably quit now... Would CNN be an acceptable source? You can argue but the facts are out there and they all tell basically the same story... The following is from various sources such as The Wall Street Journal and the Forest Legality Alliance. The FLA article is a pretty good read and follows the "What Did Gibson Guitar Know" header.

 

The June 4 filing by DOJ prosecutors filing to strike claims by Gibson and wood supplier Theodore Nagel stated: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood."

 

The filing also referred to internal Gibson e-mails: " Gibson employee

[TIMKEYS]

Thunam on the other hand should now be able to supply Nagel with all the rosewood and ebony for the grey market,'

[jwlussow]

 

Yea you should prolly quit, because you are not getting anywhere. Gibson is taking the goverment to court to try to recover their wood. the goverment filed to have that suit dropped. Thats it.

 

 

You are having issues with your eyes.

 

Here is another link...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/08/26/gibson-guitar-search-warrant-details.html

 

Here is the text for interested people that don't want to follow another link:

 

Wednesday's raid of Nashville-based Gibson Guitar Corp . was in connection to a June 27 international shipment of 1,250 pieces of ebony wood to Texas, according to court documents.

In an affidavit filed in federal court, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents detained that shipment, alleging it not only violated portions of the Lacey Act but that Gibson officials falsely identified the contents.

Namely, the paperwork outlines allegations that Gibson knowingly changed the description of various imported wood shipments to circumnavigate laws that prevent certain raw materials from India entering the United States. Officials believe Gibson had a hand in identifying those shipments as finished parts for musical instruments, according to documents.

The search warrant also details trips by federal agents to Red Arrow Delivery Service on Visco Drive, where Gibson kept the wood until it was ready to be manufactured into one of the company

[TIMKEYS]

You are having issues with your eyes. Here is another link... http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/08/26/gibson-guitar-search-warrant-details.html Here is the text for interested people that don't want to follow another link: Wednesday's raid of Nashville-based Gibson Guitar Corp . was in connection to a June 27 international shipment of 1,250 pieces of ebony wood to Texas, according to court documents. In an affidavit filed in federal court, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents detained that shipment, alleging it not only violated portions of the Lacey Act but that Gibson officials falsely identified the contents . Namely, the paperwork outlines allegations that Gibson knowingly changed the description of various imported wood shipments to circumnavigate laws that prevent certain raw materials from India entering the United States. Officials believe Gibson had a hand in identifying those shipments as finished parts for musical instruments, according to documents. The search warrant also details trips by federal agents to Red Arrow Delivery Service on Visco Drive, where Gibson kept the wood until it was ready to be manufactured into one of the company

[jwlussow]

 

no issues at all ,, we all know that the feds raided gibson. You act like they have been convicted. Last time I checked you are innocent till proven guilty. I dont think we have had that happen. The holder justice department has a hard on for gibson. tell us somthing new. Its political bull{censored}. Time will tell how this deal pans out for holder and the democrats. Hell the donks even re wrote the the law to include trees. Who knows , but as of now gibson has broken no laws ,, end of story. Lets wait to see how this deal turns out ,, and you should refrain from convicting them before the thing hits the courts.

 

 

My comments were because you stating that they were not charged. They were charged but the case has not gone to court. The guy has a reputation not unlike Uli Behringer. I haven't convicted him but I also can easily understand that he is probably the type of person that can do stuff like he is accused of. I do not believe that this is just an Obama vendetta aimed at Gibson. I believe the guy is a POS and he is just getting what he deserves.

 

You are correct, he has not been convicted, just charged.

[TIMKEYS]

My comments were because you stating that they were not charged. They were charged but the case has not gone to court. The guy has a reputation not unlike Uli Behringer. I haven't convicted him but I also can easily understand that he is probably the type of person that can do stuff like he is accused of. I do not believe that this is just an Obama vendetta aimed at Gibson. I believe the guy is a POS and he is just getting what he deserves. You are correct, he has not been convicted, just charged.

It isnt a he its gibson guitar company. dont be surprised if gibson off shores the whole operation. More jobs lost by the obama adm. BOY will that show that evil gibson company.

[roamingbard13]

I doubt Gibson would consider off-shoring their production...someone will not pay $3000 for a chinese/mexican/korean made guitar.

 

Second, if you really think the president is really targeting Gibson, I have a bridge for sale...

[TIMKEYS]

I doubt Gibson would consider off-shoring their production...someone will not pay $3000 for a chinese/mexican/korean made guitar. Second, if you really think the president is really targeting Gibson, I have a bridge for sale...

 

 

how much you asking for it and what body of water does it cross. The US dollar is not proving to be a very good investment. I may be interested lol

[TIMKEYS]

I doubt Gibson would consider off-shoring their production...someone will not pay $3000 for a chinese/mexican/korean made guitar. Second, if you really think the president is really targeting Gibson, I have a bridge for sale...

 

 

Maybe they will just move to texas lol. ye ha

[jwlussow]

It isnt a he its gibson guitar company. dont be surprised if gibson off shores the whole operation. More jobs lost by the obama adm. BOY will that show that evil gibson company.

 

I know. That damn President with his earthquake and hurricane. I can't believe we don't just impeach him. How can he do that to his own adopted country? I got a speeding ticket the other day and I know it's because Obama told that cop to do it. Funny thing is 90% of the people that work at Gibson already helped getting it rated as the worse place to work in the country... 3 years running. I doubt if Mexico or even Texas would want them.

[Scafeets]

I thought I would show up over here and clarify a few things, but it seems the thread has descended into a pro/anti Obama mosh pit. In case anyone still cares about the original theme, here's an update of sorts. So far, all we've heard is Henry and his PR machine. According to the Financial Times, it's about ebony.

"... in an affidavit used to obtain the search warrants, US Fish and Wildlife Service agent John Rayfield said the investigation began after a shipment of Indian ebony was detained by customs officers in Dallas, Texas, in June. According to the affidavit, the ebony included in the shipment was illegal under a US law that bars the transport or sale of endangered woods and plants.

The shipment also misidentified the final destination for the woods, failing to name Gibson as the buyer."

 

Look guys...it's an international treaty --- Just like the ones that try to keep lead out of children's toys and Mad Cow out of McDonald's. If "little guys" like PRS, Rickenbacker, Ernie Ball, Taylor and Martin (all family-owned US business) can compete without breaking the law, then Gibson should do the same. This isn't the "Big Bad Gummint" pickin' on the little guy --it's Henry J driving the once-great Gibson further into the ground.

 

Here's the complete list of countries that aren't signees to the treaty: Andorra, Angola, Bahrain, Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Haiti, Iraq, Kiribati, Lebanon, Maldives, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, South Sudan, Tajikistan, Timor-Leste, Tonga, Turkmenistan and Tuvalu. And The Faroe Islands. If you think those bastions of democracy are on the right side of this argument, I've got a Stella with a cracked neck I can sell you....

[Chicken Monkey]

Get outta here, Scafeets, you're disrupting the narrative we've established.

[jwlussow]

Really Scafeets? Why interrupt our meaningful discussion with something as meaningless as facts and truth....

[pinkfloydcramer61]

Its heartening to see such confidence that our government is merely doing their job, following the correct procedures in enforcing a necessary law, and would not be likely to do anything WRONG. Nothing to see here, move along folks! That's your bias, that's cool, and I freely admit I have my own, which is: I have zero confidence in Eric Holder's DOJ, who on multiple (and recent) occasions IMO has shown extremely {censored}ty judgment on matters even more important than guitars! Couple that with an administration that pursues "green" to an extreme, economy be damned, and has never met a regulation it didn't like, and you have a recipe for trouble IMO.

 

It's puzzling to see such cocksureness from both sides, both the Feds and Henry J, and also in the discussions here. Because all we're doing is speculating until some actual facts roll in. Thanks to Scafeets for his info but IMO it doesn't prove anything by itself. It's definitely not end-of-story.

 

And this just in from the Dept. of Irony: In '09 our first lady gave a Gibson guitar, complete with Indian rosewood fingerboard, as a gift to Carla Bruno-Sarkozy http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/Michelle-Obama-French-406/:

 

I have to admit that Michele would not have done that if she knew her husband had a vendetta against Gibson, unless she wanted to really piss Barack off.