Gibson guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis raided by federal agents

[KeysBear]

going back to the OP the outrage of the story should be that the DOJ was enforcing a law that is not on the books in the U.S.A. but is a law from India.

 

I don't care if Gibsons suck because I'll never buy one again. In the 70's I owed a Les Paul and an SG. I bought an Agile LP 2000 a few years ago that has sweet tone and a wonderful neck. A CNC machine can beat Gibson's complete lack of quality control every time.

[Pine Apple Slim]

 

I own two Gibsons, and maybe that's why I'm so passionate about the lower standards I find on the newer stuff. There's no way I'm taking my 1963 335 to bar gigs, so I looked for a suitable replacement. After trying dozens of new Gibson 335s, including custom shop ones, I can say without reservation that Heritage currently makes a vastly superior 335 for less money. By way of comparison, so do a dozen other manufacturers. Collings, Taylor and Carvin are three other US-made 335-styles that blow the Nashville stuff away.

 

 

Sad but true.

Would I ask Gibson to send me a $3000 guitar? No.

Collins, in a Heartbeat.

But I prob order a $2000 Heritage instead.

[Pine Apple Slim]

 

Sad but true. Would I ask Gibson to send me a $3000 guitar? No. Collins, in a Heartbeat. But I prob order a $2000 Heritage instead.

 

An $8000 Gibson Mandolin? Hell No!

A $5000 Collins? Could.

Hell Gibson wont even make a banjo nowadays cause they priced themselves out of the market.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

 

going back to the OP the outrage of the story should be that the DOJ was enforcing a law that is not on the books in the U.S.A. but is a law from India.

 

 

Yeah I found out more details. It's all about wood. The DOJ says that Gibson's shipments of wood (rosewood) imported from India cannot be raw material, but has to be finished by Indian woodworkers before shipping. Gibson claims that they imported the wood legally, and with the knowledge and consent of the government of India (Gibson also claims that the shipment of wood met the standards of the Forest Stewardship Council). Also, the DOJ first raided the Gibson plants 2 years or so ago, and confiscated Gibson's supply of ebony from Madagascar, in spite of documents from the government of that country that prove (according to Gibson) the legality of that particular shipment.

 

IMO it's looking like the assholery of Gibson CEO Henry ____, and the merits of Gibson guitars, are a side issue. IMO this blow-up is looking more and more to be about about a DOJ with it's head up it's collective ass, going overboard to harass American companies over their (DOJ) interpretation of Indian laws concerning the rights of Indian woodworkers, at the expense of American industry and workers. Maybe not such weak {censored} after all?

 

This link is about various internet guitar forums (not HC) reacting to the possibility of increased federal regulations for musicians who travel abroad with their instruments, thanks to the DOJ interpretation of the Lacy act. http://news.yahoo.com/turn-guitarists-tea-partiers-gibsons-away-194038615.html

[KeysBear]

 

Yeah I found out more details. It's all about wood. The DOJ says that Gibson's shipments of wood (rosewood) imported from India cannot be raw material, but has to be finished by Indian woodworkers before shipping. Gibson claims that they imported the wood legally, and with the knowledge and consent of the government of India (Gibson also claims that the shipment of wood met the standards of the Forest Stewardship Council). Also, the DOJ first raided the Gibson plants 2 years or so ago, and confiscated Gibson's supply of ebony from Madagascar, in spite of documents from the government of that country that prove (according to Gibson) the legality of that particular shipment. IMO it's looking like the assholery of Gibson CEO Henry ____, and the merits of Gibson guitars, are a side issue. IMO this blow-up is looking more and more to be about about a DOJ with it's head up it's collective ass, going overboard to harass American companies over their (DOJ) interpretation of Indian laws concerning the rights of Indian woodworkers, at the expense of American industry and workers. Maybe not such weak {censored} after all? This link is about various internet guitar forums (not HC) reacting to the possibility of increased federal regulations for musicians who travel abroad with their instruments, thanks to the DOJ interpretation of the Lacy act. http://news.yahoo.com/turn-guitarists-tea-partiers-gibsons-away-194038615.html

 

thanks for the link and yeah, as it is with much of the environmental protection regs they cast a wide net and hammer down mercilessly on those who are caught in it no matter how innocent their purchase of a guitar or previously contaminated land or whatever else may be. Likely in the Gibson case the treaties that enforce international law should have never been signed in the first place. Maybe they want Gibson to open a plant in India? Actually I think that is exactly what they want. India is a bigger player in U.S. politics than most people realize.

[Vito Corleone]

IMO it's looking like the assholery of Gibson CEO Henry ____, and the merits of Gibson guitars, are a side issue.

 

 

Don't discount that the two things may be related. If this guy is as big an ass as everyone says he is, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he managed to piss of the wrong people somewhere down the line and this is just the easiest way to go after the guy. Al Capone went down on tax issues.

[BlueStrat]

 

That could be a bad seed or something though... Hands down the most amazing acoustic I've ever played was a Gibson. I can't remember the model or whatever but that thing was like heaven in my hands. A totally amazing guitar. If I played acoustic enough to justify it I would've bought it. I think it was about $3k.

 

 

Could be, but the point remains: there is absolutely no reason at all to pay 3 k for a guitar when you can get one that sounds and plays as well for 1/6th the price. I use the piss out of my Seagull, playing at least 5 nights a month on it at gigs and constantly a home. It's paid for itself probably 50 times, and I'm constantly getting comments from other players about what a great acoustic sound it has plugged straight into a board. If a logo on a headstock is important to someone enough to shell out 3 k, it's their money, but if they think they're getting exceptional quality for it that they can't get for less money, they're delusional.

[Vito Corleone]

Americans love the Brand Loyalty thing for some reason. Whether It's Gibson or Ford or Republican Party or Harley or Apple or Jack Daniels or whatever. Makes people feel safe and secure or something knowing they have brand names they can trust and support. Trying to shake that confidence in those things with these people is like trying to tell them their wife is cheating on them.

[guitarguy19]

Could be, but the point remains: there is absolutely no reason at all to pay 3 k for a guitar when you can get one that sounds and plays as well for 1/6th the price. I use the piss out of my Seagull, playing at least 5 nights a month on it at gigs and constantly a home. It's paid for itself probably 50 times, and I'm constantly getting comments from other players about what a great acoustic sound it has plugged straight into a board. If a logo on a headstock is important to someone enough to shell out 3 k, it's their money, but if they think they're getting exceptional quality for it that they can't get for less money, they're delusional.

 

Headstock snobbism means nothing to me! Did you see my post above about my Epiphone!? I'd put that up against any Gibson any day of the week.

 

I don't play a lot of acoustics but I don't doubt there are those to be had out there with great quality at cheaper prices. I was just saying that Gibby was the nicest sounding and playing acoustic I've ever picked up. It was awesome. So there are great Gibsons out there too that sound as good or better to whoever's ears than yours. Whether they think it's worth the cash? You gotta leave that up to them to decide.

[Vito Corleone]

I was just saying that Gibby was the nicest sounding and playing acoustic I've ever picked up. It was awesome.

 

 

An older one or a newer one?

[Vito Corleone]

No offense but that is total BS dude. Different guitars are absolutely more temperamental than others to humidity, temperature, and lots of other things, all the way down to just getting a bump on the neck. Not to mention mechanical stuff like trems, different tuners, etc. All that makes a huge difference with a guitar's ability to stay in tune. And when a guitar has a problem with "staying in tune," it's generally a problem with open tuning not the intonation going out. And from my experience, Gibsons are very temperamental. Sneeze or scratch your ass around them and they're out...

 

 

I'm about as far from a guitar afficianado as you can get. I don't even really know what goes INTO making a guitar a great guitar. I see these guys in the stores oohing and aahing over necks and frets and woodgrains and so on and so forth and I really don't even have the slightest idea what they are talking about. Not that I don't believe them; I just don't know guitars and never had any real desire to learn about them.

 

Among the about-a-dozen different electric and acoustic guitars I own (along with a banjo and a mandolin) I have a Les Paul Custom that I bought new in 1979. It was stamped "second" (I was told it was because of small defect in the finish) and I was told later by a guitarist in a band I played in that it was weird that it was a "Custom" because it has silver hardware instead of gold? I dunno. That was my exclusive on-stage guitar for years and I beat the {censored} out of it. The silver-burst finish is now green from all the cigarette smoke in the clubs it was exposed to. Most of the finish on the neck is worn off. It's got bangs and nicks and gouges all over the place from falling over, being knocked into things, a ceiling fan falling on me during a gig, etc. The finish is cracked. Doing things like pouring "151" on it and lighting it on fire during gigs probably didn't help. I changed out the pickups at some point during the 80s to make it a bit more "aggressive" sounding. Kinda wish I didn't. I don't really like those pickups much. I've never replaced the bridge, had the frets redone, changed the nut or tuning pegs or anything like that.

 

I probably haven't had the intonation adjusted since the 80s as well. I don't play it much anymore as it's just too heavy and I prefer the tones on my '85 Japanese Strat. But that thing always did, and still does, stay in tune like a mother {censored}er. Never seen a guitar stay in tune like that one does. (Although my little Jap Strat is pretty good too.) I don't have a clue whether anyone who knows anything about guitars would now, or ever, have considered this guitar to be a "good" one. But it certainly served me well for years.

 

Part of me wants to restore it to its original condition. Part of me wants to leave it the way it is because of all the history and memories in the visible abuse. I'm guessing it wouldn't matter much either way value-wise because it's a "second"??

[pinkfloydcramer61]

 

Don't discount that the two things may be related. If this guy is as big an ass as everyone says he is, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he managed to piss of the wrong people somewhere down the line and this is just the easiest way to go after the guy. Al Capone went down on tax issues.

 

 

Good point, that's not only possible but likely. At any rate, he has pissed off insiders and ex-employees to the extent they are willing to rat him out. I don't see how he is not running his company, and the Gibson name, into the ground. You can only cash in on a name for so long, you would think, regardless of how deep your pockets are.

 

This is mildly funny (take-off on the Gibson raid and another DOJ brouhaha, the ATF "Fast and Furious" scandal): http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html

[TIMKEYS]

Yeah I found out more details. It's all about wood. The DOJ says that Gibson's shipments of wood (rosewood) imported from India cannot be raw material, but has to be finished by Indian woodworkers before shipping. Gibson claims that they imported the wood legally, and with the knowledge and consent of the government of India (Gibson also claims that the shipment of wood met the standards of the Forest Stewardship Council). Also, the DOJ first raided the Gibson plants 2 years or so ago, and confiscated Gibson's supply of ebony from Madagascar, in spite of documents from the government of that country that prove (according to Gibson) the legality of that particular shipment. IMO it's looking like the assholery of Gibson CEO Henry ____, and the merits of Gibson guitars, are a side issue. IMO this blow-up is looking more and more to be about about a DOJ with it's head up it's collective ass, going overboard to harass American companies over their (DOJ) interpretation of Indian laws concerning the rights of Indian woodworkers, at the expense of American industry and workers. Maybe not such weak {censored} after all? This link is about various internet guitar forums (not HC) reacting to the possibility of increased federal regulations for musicians who travel abroad with their instruments, thanks to the DOJ interpretation of the Lacy act. http://news.yahoo.com/turn-guitarists-tea-partiers-gibsons-away-194038615.html

 

 

bingo you got the story. i am originally from kalmazoo. the back story on gibson is that they left the zoo to a right to work state because of unions. My guess that this is why the holder justice department has been after gibson since they took office. The only wood involed is the wood holder has for gibson and their desire to keep unions out of their shop.

[Vito Corleone]

bingo you got the story. i am originally from kalmazoo. the back story on gibson is that they left the zoo to a right to work state because of unions. My guess that this is why the holder justice department has been after gibson since they took office. The only wood involed is the wood holder has for gibson and their desire to keep unions out of their shop.

 

 

If that were the case, then wouldn't he be going after EVERY company that made a similar move? Certainly there must have been many in recent years. Why single out Gibson?

[TIMKEYS]

If that were the case, then wouldn't he be going after EVERY company that made a similar move? Certainly there must have been many in recent years. Why single out Gibson?

 

 

NO idea ,, like someone said in an earlier post. Someone must know someone with ties to the justice dept and its a political thing. I am no big fan of gibson , but I do know a bit about the back story of when they left kalmazoo. Heritage guitar company is making guitars in the old gibson plant in kzoo. I lived there for 20 years so I do know people who worked at gibson. for the most part heritage is as close to being a custom guitar as anything that goes down a line. They make em the way gibson used to make them back in the day. Of course gibson sued heritage when the H140 came out.

 

Eric holder and company are basically just chicago thugs...so who knows wny they do what they so , but I do think these charges are bull{censored}. Its pay back politics. how much money did unions put into Obama's run for president? How much money does obama need on this next run? It is what it is. Gibson is the biggest US guitar maker in the US and it has a history of labor issues.

 

It may well be a shot over the bow to the non union auto makers in the south. I dont see gibson as the main issue to the holder justice dept.

 

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/johnransom/2011/07/30/obama_kills_another_500,000_non-union_jobs/page/full

 

 

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the

Lacey Act.

 

Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

 

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP

are in California;

Spector is in New York;

Martin is in Pennsylvania;

Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;

Alvarez is in Missouri;

B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;

Heritage is in Michigan;

Washburn is in Illinois.

 

All are forced-union states.

 

Peavey is another guitar and electronics company, located in the

right-to-work state of Mississippi.

 

Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by

a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to

meet federal safety and emissions standards.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

According to reports, Martin uses the exact same wood as Gibson- which may bolster Tim's Union angle as Martin is unmolested, so far (the guitar co., not our poster Martin C.) And also according to reports, the Federal agents were armed when they invaded the Gibson plants, as if they expected to encounter resistance. And according to yet more reports, overly-aggressive enforcement of the Lacy act (which was renewed by President Bush, BTW) could mean that a musician transporting their guitar across borders has the burden of proving that their instrument is not made with illegal materials, otherwise their guitar could be confiscated.

 

In other words, some of this may be overblown and until the dust settles, I would take everything you hear with a grain of salt- especially anything you hear from Gibson CEO Henry ____. But it's still VERRRY interesting.

[TIMKEYS]

According to reports, Martin uses the exact same wood as Gibson- which may bolster Tim's Union angle as Martin is unmolested, so far (the guitar co., not our poster Martin C.) And also according to reports, the Federal agents were armed when they invaded the Gibson plants, as if they expected to encounter resistance. And according to yet more reports, overly-aggressive enforcement of the Lacy act (which was renewed by President Bush, BTW) could mean that a musician transporting their guitar across borders has the burden of proving that their instrument is not made with illegal materials, otherwise their guitar could be confiscated. In other words, some of this may be overblown and until the dust settles, I would take everything you hear with a grain of salt- especially anything you hear from Gibson CEO Henry ____. But it's still VERRRY interesting.

 

 

Yea it is interesting. this deal could really blow up in obama's face. Time will tell. Going in twice and carting off production materials and ordering the plant closed seems to be pretty agressive behavior. I find it odd that the justice dept doesnt have bigger things on their plate ,, to go off on this witch hunt.

[Chicken Monkey]

I'm sure Barack Obama himself called a hit man to take out the CEO of Gibson guitars . He also brokered the auto industry bailout, to help an industry that's been moving jobs to the south and across the border for a generation. Take the tin foil hats to the Political Party, and let's keep this discussion rational.

[TIMKEYS]

I'm sure Barack Obama himself called a hit man to take out the CEO of Gibson guitars . He also brokered the auto industry bailout, to help an industry that's been moving jobs to the south and across the border for a generation. Take the tin foil hats to the Political Party, and let's keep this discussion rational.

your spin on this wont fly any better over there than its flying here. The obama/holder justice dept is out of control and is being used to settle political scores. thats the bottom line on this.

[Nick H]

Dude, I am as conservative as they get. But just cuz a bad guy owns a guitar company, that doesn't stop him from being a bad guy. And his shenanigans aren't subjective. He's an ASSHOLE. He fired the whole {censored}ing Flatiron division AT THE CHRISTMAS PARTY cuz he's a dick, for his own kicks. Reckon if you are a human you might pick another day or another way? Was that REALLY the only day he could do it? AT THE CHRISTMAS PARTY? Sorry man, I have heard too many first hand horror stories about the guy....

 

Sombody should just kill that guy...

[Vito Corleone]

your spin on this wont fly any better over there than its flying here. The obama/holder justice dept is out of control and is being used to settle political scores. thats the bottom line on this.

 

 

You're the same guy who thought Obama and the Dems were going to go for a big gun-grab over the lame-duck session, aren't you?

[KeysBear]

I'm sure Barack Obama himself called a hit man to take out the CEO of Gibson guitars . He also brokered the auto industry bailout, to help an industry that's been moving jobs to the south and across the border for a generation. Take the tin foil hats to the Political Party, and let's keep this discussion rational.

 

Gibson is a high profile mark so we know about it but the little guys who get kicked around won't make the news stories. I doubt Obama made the call. More than likely a union leader made the call. Deduce from that what you will. I know the rules here say to refrain from political discussion but this story is about Gibson getting kicked. It's relevant, and so is the fact that if you're going overseas you should leave the exotic wood guitars at home.

[BlueStrat]

Well, I found this:

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/08/gibson-guitar-ceo-obama-justice-department-wants-us-to-just-shut-our-doors-go-away/

The idea that it is politically motivated as a favor to unions may not be far-fetched.

 

From Gateway Pundit site:

"Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the

Lacey Act.

 

Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

 

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP

are in California;

Spector is in New York;

Martin is in Pennsylvania;

Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;

Alvarez is in Missouri;

B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;

Heritage is in Michigan;

Washburn is in Illinois.

 

All are forced-union states.

 

Peavey is another guitar and electronics company, located in the

right-to-work state of Mississippi.

 

Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by

a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to

meet federal safety and emissions standards."

*****************

 

In light of the NLRB's suit against Boeing for moving a plant to NC, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Vito Corleone]

So let me get this straight---Gibson is pretty much the only US guitar-maker in a right-to-work state, treats their employees like {censored} AND charges more for their guitars than anybody else?

SOMETHING is tricklin' down over at Gibson, but it doesn't seem like it's the profits...

[BlueStrat]

 

So let me get this straight---Gibson is pretty much the only US guitar-maker in a right-to-work state, treats their employees like {censored} AND charges more for their guitars than anybody else? SOMETHING is tricklin' down over at Gibson, but it doesn't seem like it's the profits...

 

 

Yeah, I don't get it either. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but you gotta wonder WTF is the deal here. It's a head scratcher, as the guy I work for likes to say.