Gibson guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis raided by federal agents

[KeysBear]

 

Well, I found this: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/08/gibson-guitar-ceo-obama-justice-department-wants-us-to-just-shut-our-doors-go-away/ The idea that it is politically motivated as a favor to unions may not be far-fetched. From Gateway Pundit site: "Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the Lacey Act. Tennessee is a right-to-work state . Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California; Spector is in New York; Martin is in Pennsylvania; Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut; Alvarez is in Missouri; B.C. Rich is in Kentucky; Heritage is in Michigan; Washburn is in Illinois. All are forced-union states . Peavey is another guitar and electronics company, located in the right-to-work state of Mississippi. Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to meet federal safety and emissions standards." ***************** In light of the NLRB's suit against Boeing for moving a plant to NC, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

ouch, when you read through the story you find out that the holding company that owns Berhinger is filing the suits against Peavey claiming that Peavey makes unsafe products? YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!! Behringer that owns a city in China and makes products I wouldn't even feel safe using for a doorstop is suing a U.S. company??????? arrrggghhh

[Vito Corleone]

ouch, when you read through the story you find out that the holding company that owns Berhinger is filing the suits against Peavey claiming that Peavey makes unsafe products? YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!! Behringer that owns a city in China and makes products I wouldn't use for a doorstop is suing a U.S. company??????? arrrggghhh

 

 

I wondered if their might be more to this and there is. When I saw "Behringer sues Peavey", the first thing I thought is "I wonder if this is more about patent infringement?" I don't know if you've been following what's been going on in the software industry lately, but the patent process is massively out of control, and the companies sue each other left and right. Just last week Google spent some $12.5 billion buying up Motorola---MOSTLY just so they could buy up a pile of patents so they could be protected in lawsuits.

 

And it seems the Behringer/Peavey war started when Peavey was suing Behringer over patent infringement. (In THIS case, it might be more valid, since we all know Behringer rips off everyone.) It seems Behringer's suits against Peavey were more about being retalitory.

 

http://performermag.com/2011/05/02/peavey-electronics-corporation-fils-multiple-federal-lawsuits-against-behringer/

[KeysBear]

I wondered if their might be more to this and there is. When I saw "Behringer sues Peavey", the first thing I thought is "I wonder if this is more about patent infringement?" I don't know if you've been following what's been going on in the software industry lately, but the patent process is massively out of control, and the companies sue each other left and right. Just last week Google spent some $12.5 billion buying up Motorola---MOSTLY just so they could buy up a pile of patents so they could be protected in lawsuits. And it seems the Behringer/Peavey war started when Peavey was suing Behringer over patent infringement. (In THIS case, it might be more valid, since we all know Behringer rips off everyone.) It seems Behringer's suits against Peavey were more about being retalitory. http://performermag.com/2011/05/02/peavey-electronics-corporation-fils-multiple-federal-lawsuits-against-behringer/

Great, so one day in the future Behringer will be the ONLY manufacturer of music gear.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

Don't {censored} with Peavey. The guitar player in my band works there (AFAIK he is over several product lines) and they have always made good, road-worthy stuff. Coincidentally, he also plays an LP ( I don't know what year) for the Southern Rawk material we do- maybe it's a visual thing. I look forward to asking him questions about the lawsuits against Peavey, at the next gig. That way I can get the "inside scoop"- if nothing else, this forum is good for inside scoops (ala our Nashville sources).

 

Inside scoops- sounds like a kitty litterbox-changing technique, or something. Which is entirely appropriate, given the {censored} that is dished out here!

[Vito Corleone]

Great, so one day in the future Behringer will be the ONLY manufacturer of music gear.

Not if they lose some of these patent infringement lawsuits they are almost certainly guilty of. I guessing Peavey's claims of patent infringement against Behringer must be more valid than Behringer's claims that Peavey violates safety and emission standards...

[Chicken Monkey]

 

The idea that it is politically motivated as a favor to unions may not be far-fetched.

 

 

It's also not too far fetched that someone who was sick of getting treated like {censored} for bottom dollar, with no stake in the company and nothing to lose, blew the whistle. One pissed off dummy seems more likely than a conspiracy to support a constituency that supported Hillary Clinton until she begged them to support Obama.

[chadd]

 

Part of me wants to restore it to its original condition. Part of me wants to leave it the way it is because of all the history and memories in the visible abuse. I'm guessing it wouldn't matter much either way value-wise because it's a "second"??

 

The "second" stamp has virtually no impact on resale value of a 70's les paul. Since they were usually minor finish flaws, or just overstock in some cases, the use/abuse of those guitars since then has generally produced more "damage" to the finish than you would find in the original flaw. An original silverburst should bring a decent value and the Norlin era les pauls in general have gone up dramatically in recent years.

 

 

It's also not too far fetched that someone who was sick of getting treated like {censored} for bottom dollar, with no stake in the company and nothing to lose, blew the whistle. One pissed off dummy seems more likely than a conspiracy to support a constituency that supported Hillary Clinton until she begged them to support Obama.

 

It doesn't even have to be a legit complaint to blow the whistle. Just filing an anonymous tip in order to get even is a possibility.

[TIMKEYS]

{censored}, i've been looking at getting a les paul, but you guys are harshing my mellow. Guess I'll look at used ones.

 

 

Go buy a heritage H150 model ,,, you will spend less and they are very nice instruments. If you can live without it saying gibson ,,, it will do everything the gibson will do and the quality will be higher

 

as for the old work horse les paul ,,, leave the finish alone and original, no matter how screwed up it is .... if you restore it, it will make it worth less money. Thats exactly what a ex gibson custom shop guy from kalmazoo told me about my old beater gibson EBO bass. this guy can restore a gibson to pretty much brand new condition. Hell he could whip one up from scratch.

[TIMKEYS]

It's also not too far fetched that someone who was sick of getting treated like {censored} for bottom dollar, with no stake in the company and nothing to lose, blew the whistle. One pissed off dummy seems more likely than a conspiracy to support a constituency that supported Hillary Clinton until she begged them to support Obama.

 

 

 

Do you honestly think that some pissed off employee is going to scramble all the goverment agencies that went after gibson twice? I find that pretty far fetched.

[guitarguy19]

An older one or a newer one?

 

 

This was a new one. I played it at a Mom and Pop music shop in downtown Grand Haven, MI while I was on vacation there last summer. I don't even remember the name of the store.

 

Part of the issue was that this place had every guitar on their shelves set up properly and tuned up. The 3 or 4 I picked up played pretty good. You walk into GC or something and everything on their shelves is so f'd up it's crazy...those guitars (no matter how expensive) mostly need an exorcism before they'll play right. They don't keep anything maintained right in those dumps...

[Chicken Monkey]

 

Do you honestly think that some pissed off employee is going to scramble all the goverment agencies that went after gibson twice? I find that pretty far fetched.

 

 

Whistleblowing happens all the time, and sometimes it gets the attention of the federal government. Would you like for me to post a link to the wikipedia list of whistleblowers, or will you let it go?

[KeysBear]

 

It's also not too far fetched that someone who was sick of getting treated like {censored} for bottom dollar, with no stake in the company and nothing to lose, blew the whistle. One pissed off dummy seems more likely than a conspiracy to support a constituency that supported Hillary Clinton until she begged them to support Obama.

 

Whistle blowing about what? It's part of their business model to use exotic woods, hardly a secret. The story is about an oddball interpretation of a non-U.S. law to justify going into a business with a SWAT team style of heavy handed law enforcement to confiscate legally obtained materials. You can't bring those woods into the country without the proper paperwork to begin with. Look, I'm not a kiss up slobbering fool for either major political party and I'm not pointing fingers at Obama's motives per se. As vile as Gibson's previous actions may have been the glaring problem here is a DOJ that responds to regulatory civil infractions as if they were bringing down terrorist activities. There has to be a very strong motive behind it. Whistle blowing doesn't cut it as an explanation. To me it reeks of a heavy hand trying to put Gibson out of business or to weaken them so that they have to sell out.

[Vito Corleone]

Seems pretty clear he pissed off SOMEBODY he shouldn't have over SOMETHING. Just not sure I buy the union vs. right-to-work state angle.

[TIMKEYS]

Seems pretty clear he pissed off SOMEBODY he shouldn't have over SOMETHING. Just not sure I buy the union vs. right-to-work state angle.

 

 

Its about the only angle I can think of that would turn loose that much federal power over what seems to be a really bogus case only effecting one company in an industry that has very few suppliers that the industry uses. We should get more information on this as time goes on.

[3shiftgtr]

Let's see here. We got 3 speculations going on in this thread:

1) The basically Dem run DOJ is doing the dirty work for the unions and hammering a business who moved to a non union supporting (right to work) state.

2) A whistle blower at Gibson blew his whistle and got the feds fired up about the wood legalities. The worker is pissed he works for a {censored} company and wants his pound of flesh.

3) Henry the J. pissed off the wrong person or group of persons somewhere along the line and they are going to keep coming after him in one form or another til they get what ever it is they want.

Ya know, it could be all three!!!!

Does anyone know what happened last time they slapped him? I know they ruled in favor of Gibson in court, but wasn't he supposed to hand over his books, and never did? I didn't follow that story very well, and can't find anything that says he eventually did or didn't.

Cuz if he didn't then we have a bureaucrat war......you know, whoever was behind the first thing, getting beat and going "I'll show that no union mother{censored}er who's REALLY boss!"

[TIMKEYS]

Let's see here. We got 3 speculations going on in this thread: 1) The basically Dem run DOJ is doing the dirty work for the unions and hammering a business who moved to a non union supporting (right to work) state. 2) A whistle blower at Gibson blew his whistle and got the feds fired up about the wood legalities. The worker is pissed he works for a {censored} company and wants his pound of flesh. 3) Henry the J. pissed off the wrong person or group of persons somewhere along the line and they are going to keep coming after him in one form or another til they get what ever it is they want. Ya know, it could be all three!!!! Does anyone know what happened last time they slapped him? I know they ruled in favor of Gibson in court, but wasn't he supposed to hand over his books, and never did? I didn't follow that story very well, and can't find anything that says he eventually did or didn't. Cuz if he didn't then we have a bureaucrat war......you know, whoever was behind the first thing, getting beat and going "I'll show that no union mother{censored}er who's REALLY boss!"

I think where it stands now is that gibson is going to court to recover the half a million dollars worth of wood that was taken from them in the raid in 2009 that has not been returned. NO charges have been filed from the first raid.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

+1 for KeysBear- very well put!

 

I think that the first raid was because of a (probably bogus) whistleblower, and that the 2nd raid was because of Henry CEO pissing off the wrong person/group while pushing back against 1st raid. I also think that ecological fanaticism would be more of a factor in all this than the union angle. The current administration has already taken alot of heat for Boeing, so why pull something else that would play into the "Obama and his minions are business-killers" narrative that the Republicans will attempt to use against them in the coming election? Unless they stupidly thought the raids would go unnoticed.

[Anderton]

It doesn't matter what people think of Gibson or Henry J, there is a MUCH larger issue here and what's happening at Gibson is the start of something, not the end.

 

Check out this guest editorial on the Lacey Act we published in issue 118 of the Harmony Central Confidential newsletter, written by Brian Majeski of the publication Music Trades. It will tell you what you really need to know about what's going down with Gibson.

[TIMKEYS]

+1 for KeysBear- very well put! I think that the first raid was because of a (probably bogus) whistleblower, and that the 2nd raid was because of Henry CEO pissing off the wrong person/group while pushing back against 1st raid. I also think that ecological fanaticism would be more of a factor in all this than the union angle. The current administration has already taken alot of heat for Boeing, so why pull something else that would play into the "Obama and his minions are business-killers" narrative that the Republicans will attempt to use against them in the coming election? Unless they stupidly thought the raids would go unnoticed.

 

 

I honestly think the public is too stupid to notice.... and we all know that there are plenty of libs to carry obamas water

[KeysBear]

It doesn't matter what people think of Gibson or Henry J, there is a MUCH larger issue here and what's happening at Gibson is the start of something, not the end. Check out this guest editorial on the Lacey Act we published in issue 118 of the Harmony Central Confidential newsletter, written by Brian Majeski of the publication Music Trades. It will tell you what you really need to know about what's going down with Gibson.

 

Thanks for pointing us to a large part of the answer. To me this is just scary stuff and very very sad. Looks like the only guitar safe to own or travel with would have a maple neck and mother of toilet seat inlays. By not grandfathering in previously made guitars they have made criminals of us all.

[Vito Corleone]

Its about the only angle I can think of .

 

 

That doesn't surprise me. You're the guy who thought Obama was gonna go for a big gun grab a few months ago as soon as he had the chance. Being so simple-minded about politics doesn't really allow one to think of too many different angles, I would imagine.

[TIMKEYS]

That doesn't surprise me. You're the guy who thought Obama was gonna go for a big gun grab a few months ago as soon as he had the chance. Being so simple-minded about politics doesn't really allow one to think of too many different angles, I would imagine.

 

 

here is the obama record on guns.. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_obama.html

[Vito Corleone]

Yeah, you showed me that before you wrongly predicted the gun grab that I told you wasn't going to happen. Nothing there to indicate he would. The gulf between "opposes conceal-carry laws" and "will go for a gun grab during the lame duck session" is about a mile wide. The only thing Obama did during the lame duck session was extend the Bush tax cuts. There's Obama's big "radical socialist agenda" for you.

You'd think that by your age you'd have figured out how politics actually works instead of just letting your biases and your paranoia lead you around by the nose.

[TIMKEYS]

Yeah, you showed me that before you wrongly predicted the gun grab that I told you wasn't going to happen. Nothing there to indicate he would. You'd think that by your age you'd have figured out how politics actually works instead of just letting your biases and your paranoia lead you around by the nose.

 

 

I understand how politics work quite well. You got to remember that I lived right next to the people public of IL pretty well my whole life. I also understand that you are a CA liberal and prolly voted for obama. As a guy in business ,, I cant understand why ,, but you prolly did. try owning a hand gun in IL. Try having a CCW permit. You may not know any better since you live in a state thats very liberal. You think that {censored} is normal lol. Obama doesnt have the political capitol to go on a gun grab rampage ,, give a dem house and senate and a second term ,, He would go there. Obama is a politician ,,, not a very smart one , but he is a politician.

[Alan Roberts]

I don't see anything in that article that backs up Majeski's assertions that individuals and stores could be charged with crimes. Where's his legal proof to back his claims? It just sounds like he's stating his own interpretation and has no legal substantiation.

 

I did find this article interesting: http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/08/26/gibson-guitar-search-warrant-details.html It states in part that "In an affidavit filed in federal court, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents detained that shipment, alleging it not only violated portions of the Lacey Act but that Gibson officials falsely identified the contents. Namely, the paperwork outlines allegations that Gibson knowingly changed the description of various imported wood shipments to circumnavigate laws that prevent certain raw materials from India entering the United States. Officials believe Gibson had a hand in identifying those shipments as finished parts for musical instruments, according to documents."

 

I also noticed that in this article: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110826/NEWS01/308260088/Gibson-Guitar-chief-denies-wrongdoing-after-raids It mentions the first case filed against Gibson in 2009 was a Civil case and that "While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."

 

I'm not trying to interpret the law for anyone or say who's wrong or right in this, but I don't think Majeski's qualifications as a music journalist qualify him to, either. As a former MI retailer, I have long been a fan and subscriber of The Music Trades and think they do a good job, but anticipating the interpretation of the law is probably not where they should be headed. Just sayin'.