On stage attire, music stands, "Dad bands", etc...

[Lee Flier]

Kind of funny some of the topics that are getting discussed to death here right now, and I think that at the root, they are all about the same thing: Passion. Giving A {censored}.

 

A lot of musicians who are truly passionate and committed to music, care about continuing to grow as musicians, care about how they present themselves to an audience, etc. are really irritated by people who obviously don't, and yet are trying to get the same gigs. It's as simple as that.

 

If you're just playing parties, backyard BBQs and charity gigs, I doubt anybody here cares whether you haven't learned a new song in 20 years, wear shorts or use a music stand. I have nothing at all against people getting together and playing music once in awhile for fun. But I don't think that's what most here are complaining about. I think the complaints center around the fact that many of these folks don't seem to understand the difference between themselves and someone who has actually made music their passion and life's work. Notice I said "passion and life's work" as opposed to "livelihood" because not all of this group necessarily make their living playing - many of us are semi pros but still believe it's important to keep pushing oneself, keep learning new material, growing as a musician, presenting ourselves to an audience professionally, etc. and that if we don't do that, we don't deserve to be on a stage. It is obviously still our greatest passion. As a fan of music, that is what I want to see and so that is what I strive to be as a musician.

 

I will add that there are plenty of young bands who also fall into the "don't really give a {censored}" category - they just do it in slightly different ways from the "dad bands." Some of them go the "I'm an indie slacker" route, hiding their lack of passion behind an indie-noise pose (and I'm not saying all indie bands are like this - I think anybody who's seen a good indie band vs. one that really doesn't give a {censored} knows what I'm talking about). Others I would term "wannabe posers" because they have the whole look down and the slick marketing and everything else that makes them have "the look and feel of rockstars", but their music itself is completely devoid of passion and it's obvious that they don't actually give a crap about the music or the audience.

 

So really, I think this is mostly about context. People rag on music stands because in many cases, music stands 1) show that the musicians don't give enough of a {censored} to memorize the songs, and 2) detract from the musician's ability to really engage with the audience. I'm sure if someone were actually using a music stand in a way that did neither of these things, no one would care.

 

Likewise, if a band chooses to wear shorts onstage because they've thought about it and it really works with their presentation (Angus Young anyone? ), it's fine. But if they're obviously wearing shorts because they just couldn't be bothered to think about what they were going to wear onstage and don't really give a {censored} (again) how they present themselves to the audience, then it becomes a problem. (and again, I would have the same problem with someone dressing like a rockstar if they're only doing it to hide the fact that they haven't learned the material and can't play for {censored}.)

 

Of course when people post about these topics on BWTB, we don't see the context. All we see is what people post, and imagine whatever scenario we think is most typical. But I think the real message behind all the vitriol is: if you're going to get on a stage in front of a public audience, please give a {censored}. A very large one. Don't play or act as if music is some second or third tier hobby. If you don't or can't really give much of a {censored}, that's OK - it's fine for people to have other priorities and in fact, I'm glad most people do. But then stick to jamming in the basement and backyard BBQs for your family and friends, and leave the public venues to people whose top priority and passion is music.

 

Am I on target here?

[Mark Wein]

100%.

 

i just saw this topic in the "Whats New" and don't really read this forum but it's something that we teach in our studio every day.

 

When you step on stage in front of an audience there is an expectation that you are going to give them something for their attention. Depends on the audience, venue, etc but ultimately you aren't performing for yourself as soon as you plug in your instrument in a public venue and people have paid money or time to come see you or a venue is paying you to entertain their patrons.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Am I on target here?

 

 

Yes.

[TIMKEYS]

Kind of funny some of the topics that are getting discussed to death here right now, and I think that at the root, they are all about the same thing: Passion. Giving A {censored}. A lot of musicians who are truly passionate and committed to music, care about continuing to grow as musicians, care about how they present themselves to an audience, etc. are really irritated by people who obviously don't, and yet are trying to get the same gigs. It's as simple as that. If you're just playing parties, backyard BBQs and charity gigs, I doubt anybody here cares whether you haven't learned a new song in 20 years, wear shorts or use a music stand. I have nothing at all against people getting together and playing music once in awhile for fun. But I don't think that's what most here are complaining about. I think the complaints center around the fact that many of these folks don't seem to understand the difference between themselves and someone who has actually made music their passion and life's work. Notice I said "passion and life's work" as opposed to "livelihood" because not all of this group necessarily make their living playing - many of us are semi pros but still believe it's important to keep pushing oneself, keep learning new material, growing as a musician, presenting ourselves to an audience professionally, etc. and that if we don't do that, we don't deserve to be on a stage. It is obviously still our greatest passion . As a fan of music, that is what I want to see and so that is what I strive to be as a musician. I will add that there are plenty of young bands who also fall into the "don't really give a {censored}" category - they just do it in slightly different ways from the "dad bands." Some of them go the "I'm an indie slacker" route, hiding their lack of passion behind an indie-noise pose (and I'm not saying all indie bands are like this - I think anybody who's seen a good indie band vs. one that really doesn't give a {censored} knows what I'm talking about). Others I would term "wannabe posers" because they have the whole look down and the slick marketing and everything else that makes them have "the look and feel of rockstars", but their music itself is completely devoid of passion and it's obvious that they don't actually give a crap about the music or the audience. So really, I think this is mostly about context. People rag on music stands because in many cases, music stands 1) show that the musicians don't give enough of a {censored} to memorize the songs, and 2) detract from the musician's ability to really engage with the audience. I'm sure if someone were actually using a music stand in a way that did neither of these things, no one would care. Likewise, if a band chooses to wear shorts onstage because they've thought about it and it really works with their presentation (Angus Young anyone? ), it's fine. But if they're obviously wearing shorts because they just couldn't be bothered to think about what they were going to wear onstage and don't really give a {censored} (again) how they present themselves to the audience, then it becomes a problem. (and again, I would have the same problem with someone dressing like a rockstar if they're only doing it to hide the fact that they haven't learned the material and can't play for {censored}.) Of course when people post about these topics on BWTB, we don't see the context. All we see is what people post, and imagine whatever scenario we think is most typical. But I think the real message behind all the vitriol is: if you're going to get on a stage in front of a public audience, please give a {censored}. A very large one. Don't play or act as if music is some second or third tier hobby. If you don't or can't really give much of a {censored}, that's OK - it's fine for people to have other priorities and in fact, I'm glad most people do. But then stick to jamming in the basement and backyard BBQs for your family and friends, and leave the public venues to people whose top priority and passion is music. Am I on target here?

 

Mostly until you try to tell people where they can play.

[zabe60]

We used to call this "professionlism".

[Kramerguy]

I think part of the bigger problem which causes the arguments is not that the band playing a local bar "doesn't give a {censored}" but simply that they won't spend $1000 on a fantastic light show, sound man, play thru a $10k sound board, or even spend $150 per man for ass-tacular threads for a gig that ultimately will break down to $80 per man. Even when you consider playing out 2-3 times a month, that really breaks down to breaking even when considering the costs of a band-van, mediocre PA gear, individual gear, and then lighting, etc..

 

I personally play somewhere between amateur and semi-pro .. I do "get it" when it comes to pride, professionalism, and presentation. I'm just trying to play the devils advocate in the context of why some bands who really do give a {censored} might act or seem like they don't.

[Lee Flier]

Mostly until you try to tell people where they can play.

 

 

I am not, literally, "trying to tell people where they can play." I am saying that if you do this, don't be surprised when other musicians who actually give a {censored} are pissed off about it. Music, and audiences, deserve musicians who are passionate and committed.

[Mark Wein]

 

I think part of the bigger problem which causes the arguments is not that the band playing a local bar "doesn't give a {censored}" but simply that they won't spend $1000 on a fantastic light show, sound man, play thru a $10k sound board, or even spend $150 per man for ass-tacular threads for a gig that ultimately will break down to $80 per man. Even when you consider playing out 2-3 times a month, that really breaks down to breaking even when considering the costs of a band-van, mediocre PA gear, individual gear, and then lighting, etc.. I personally play somewhere between amateur and semi-pro .. I do "get it" when it comes to pride, professionalism, and presentation. I'm just trying to play the devils advocate in the context of why some bands who really do give a {censored} might act or seem like they don't.

 

 

 

It's possible to play a great show without expensive production elements, though. We have a great PA, bring a few lights and try to look like we should be on stage and not washing dishes in the venue but I've seen bands with all of that stuff that either don't know how to run a show, bother to "entertain" or just not know how to use all of the junk they drag to a gig.

[MusicalSchizo]

I'm with you, Lee, 98%...but I don't think most people are able to judge accurately how important music is to another person or their passion or honesty just based on how that person presents themselves on stage or even how well they know the songs/pieces. I think that's presumptuous bull{censored}, to be honest, but that's just my opinion.

 

I think the bottom line with musical performance is:

If it sounds good to you, and touches you in some positive way, it's a good performance, regardless of whether it follows your predetermined "rules of presentation".

 

Of course, this is different for EVERYONE, and I guess the main reason we're always arguing about it (guilt for being "one of those people" a potential second place reason). I've seen MANY performances that visually bored the {censored} out of me but blew my mind musically. And vice versa...

 

But on the whole, definitely on your side.

Brian V.

[GCDEF]

I agree. Not sure we need another thread, but that's the point I was trying to make in the others that seemed not to get across. The difference between a "dad" band and a band whose members happen to be dads is the attitude. Dad bands are more of a midlife crisis type of thing than actual musicians who just happen to be getting a little long in the tooth.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Dad bands are more of a midlife crisis type of thing than actual musicians who just happen to be getting a little long in the tooth.

 

 

That's what the dentures are for....

[TIMKEYS]

I am not, literally, "trying to tell people where they can play." I am saying that if you do this, don't be surprised when other musicians who actually give a {censored} are pissed off about it. Music, and audiences, deserve musicians who are passionate and committed.

 

Oh Nooooooooooooz musicans are pissed off.

[Mark Wein]

little long in the tooth.

 

 

I guess that would be me

 

[guitarguy19]

 

Mostly until you try to tell people where they can play.

 

 

I have to agree here. It depends on what you're after.

 

If 50 yr old Joe wants to play at his buddy's bar and he brings 8 of his college buddies and their wives out to see his "band" play...I couldn't care less. It doesn't bother me one bit that Joe just wants to get out of the basement and play his guitar in front of some people after taking it up in his mid 40s and learning some old songs. He's not out to make a living...just to have some fun. Let him wear shorts with socks and sandals and use chord charts and hack his leads. There is and always will be a market for that. Small neighborhood bars want to pay $200 for a band...that's what they get. It doesn't necessarily mean that Joe doesn't give a {censored} about the music. He's up there having the time of his life. Now...would I go see Joe's band? Nope. But who am I to say he should stay in his bedroom? I say have at it I don't give a crap. It doesn't upset me that he's out there having fun. To each their own.

 

Everything else: spot on.

[MusicalSchizo]

I am not, literally, "trying to tell people where they can play." I am saying that if you do this, don't be surprised when other musicians who actually give a {censored} are pissed off about it. Music, and audiences, deserve musicians who are passionate and committed.

 

The music deserves passion and commitment, for sure.

 

The audiences? Mmm...depends on the venue. Some of them can go {censored} themselves for being ignorant, passionless assbags for no apparent reason.

Brian V.

[SeniorBlues]

Each of us shows our passion in different ways . . . attire, lights, equipment, demeanor on stage . . . oh yes, and the quality of the music.

 

Part of the problem is that the venues don't seem to have as much commitment as we do. Ads, lights, sound system, stage? . . . not to mention the size of the venue to start with. It's a chicken/egg thing.

[MusicalSchizo]

I guess that would be me

 

At least you turned the TV off...

Brian V.

[Mark Wein]

At least you turned the TV off... Brian V.

 

 

The funny thing is that the bar never does it so I end up doing it before the 2nd set starts since the first set is still "dinner" there and the staff never remembers to shut them off. We've been something of a house band there since the 1990's so I don't complain too much. It's always fun and the pay is decent for the area.

[Vito Corleone]

 

It's a chicken/egg thing.

 

 

It is.

 

But the thing to remember is the venue has a lot of things to be committed to. The music is just one of those things. The band has nothing else to worry about. So any band that allows themselves to take a "why should I give a {censored} if the club doesn't?" attitude is dropping the ball big time. The band STILL has the responsibility of delivering a quality product.

 

And no--I don't care if the musicians have "other commitments" in their lives. That still doesn't excuse delivering a half-assed product. Any more than I'd accept drinking a {censored}ty beer because the brewer has a wife and kids and a day job.

[SeniorBlues]

This is why you have to use that long laundry list when you're looking for band mates. Virtually all of us "give a {censored}" . . . . just not about the same things.

 

A "light show" is not an essential component of my musical presentation. Arranged and rehearsed harmony is.

 

Dave - Yeah, time you're willing to devote to the band is huge. But like some guys are saying, it's not like there's a minimum . . . you just have to be on the same page. One guy who won't practice - ore one guy who's a workaholic compared to everyone else - is a common band killer.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Dave - Yeah, time you're willing to devote to the band is huge. But like some guys are saying, it's not like there's a minimum . . . you just have to be on the same page. One guy who won't practice - ore one guy who's a workaholic compared to everyone else - is a common band killer.

 

 

If you're all on the same page, you can make all the other stuff work. To a point, of course. Among the members of my band I've got people for whom they'll put every available second they have towards to band to others who do nothing more than just show up to rehearsals and gigs. That's fine. What I need is 100% out of everyone but not everybody as the same "100%". I accept that. That's just the difference between different human beings. Some people are leaders; some are followers. What I WON'T accept is less than anyone's individual "100%" though. If all you can do is make it to rehearsal and gigs--fine. But show up ready to go with all your parts learned.

[BATCAT]

 

Among the members of my band I've got people for whom they'll put every available second they have towards to band to others who do nothing more than just show up to rehearsals and gigs. That's fine. What I need is 100% out of everyone but not everybody as the same "100%". I accept that. That's just the difference between different human beings. Some people are leaders; some are followers. What I WON'T accept is less than anyone's individual "100%" though. If all you can do is make it to rehearsal and gigs--fine. But show up ready to go with all your parts learned.

 

 

I agree with this so much.

[Vito Corleone]

A "light show" is not an essential component of my musical presentation.

 

If it's acceptible to use pictures of Steely Dan to defend the use of music stands, I suppose it's also acceptible to use pictures of Steely Dan to argue for the necessity of a good light show? :poke:

 

[Yer Blues]

I always thought rock music was something that was suppose to be creative and not something that could fit in a little box.... then I started playing in bands.

[JailTime]

 

Kind of funny some of the topics that are getting discussed to death here right now, and I think that at the root, they are all about the same thing: Passion. Giving A {censored}. A lot of musicians who are truly passionate and committed to music, care about continuing to grow as musicians, care about how they present themselves to an audience, etc. are really irritated by people who obviously don't, and yet are trying to get the same gigs. It's as simple as that. Am I on target here?

 

 

I don't believe so. If there is one area of life where people tend to get overtly passionate about their likes/dislikes it's about music. I have all my life, and I can tell you that I have been in bands that would embarrass many of you. I'm embarrassed by the memories. But, I had no less passion than I have today. What I do have is a lot more knowledge, experience, and understanding of what I WANT to do with my music. No one on the planet may agree with me, but I know exactly what I want to do with music and how to do it. I also realize that it takes a lot of work, a good deal of money, and a lack of fear of failure. So yeah, I've failed on stage. Prolly looked like I didn't give a {censored}, but that was most likely a defense mechanism.

 

I always think of kids in relation to this, and how they say, 'no one understands me.' And they let the music they like and make define them. Often with poor results. They simply have not had the opportunity to understand how to channel the passion, most likely because they don't want to fail - be told they can't have the gig, get the gig and no one shows up, or simply look and sound like {censored}. This is not a lack of passion, but a lack of determination and will. And these are learned traits - kids don't inherently possess them. Obviously it takes longer for some than others, and as we've all noticed, rock and roll is a young persons game.

 

So when a dad-rocker gets out there and looks like he's a statue with cargo shorts and a music stand, it's not because he doesn't have passion, it's because he doesn't have confidence, and whatever experience he has is dated and mostly forgotten. Acting like you don't give a {censored} is a defense mechanism, cause if you don't care, then you haven't really failed.