How to convince a room NOT to book your band!

[wheresgrant3]

you dont believe that do you. Hell we were making 500 bucks in 1969 as high school kids with a lot less overhead than the nuts have. I am sure you were making more than 500 bucks in some of your first bands well before any of the nuts were playing. I never have bought into the fact that low charging bands lowered what another band could make or that high charging ones brought the whole pack up. Every area has a few high earning bands ,,, and lots of lower earning bands. I am sure someone was getting what the nuts are getting now when they were starting out making 500 bucks. It just may not have been at the same venues... Its just how it works.

 

LOL... Tim, for someone experienced as you, you sure don't seem to know or understand bar/band economics. Everytime I describe what we're accomplishing in our market you immediately naysay it as improbable. Then I'll point to some facts and figures and you're respond that it's possible in my market because of 'big city money' or market conditions that don't seem to exist anywhere else in the country (like I'm gigging regularly in Bel Aire instead of rural upstate NY) instead of recognizing the things we've accomplished as a band to get to that point. I'm sure you're a great sideman, but have you EVER managed a band? Just asking, because from your posts I can't imagine you focused on the 'possibles' in each transaction.

 

Here it is.... I know for a FACT that we've had a influence on the rate scale that bars will pay bands. Why? They told us (me). I have friends in several bands that joke we keep pushing the ceiling for them. We've been leading that rate scale for the better part of 7-8 years. Everytime we bump our pay, 3-4 bands down the line seemingly squeeze a little more from the bar owners. I'm not taking anything away from those bands success.. but they wouldn't be earning $1200-1300 if we hadn't paved that way for them 4-5 years ago. There was a time when one popular club told us that there was no way they would pay any band over $1000. Now 5 years later we're making twice that and there are 2-3 bands doing respectable business that are being paid just over $1000. So you don't believe a band breaking the threshold on local pay can have an influence on other acts that are doing consistent business. There are still many bands that are paid in that $300-400 range. Some bands have been stuck at that rate nearly a decade. If inflation had something to do with it don't you think they would be charging a much higher rate too?

 

And no.. no local bands have ever made this much in a local private nightclub. I'm not bragging... it's a point I'm making. Been living here most of my life... been part of the local music scene more than 20 years. We've been together for almost a decade and a top draw nearly 3/4's of that time? So what bands were doing this wild business before us... when? In the dark days of the 1990's when bands were working the door playing Alice In Chains covers? LOL. It goes hand in hand with the progression we've made as a band over the years. Adding members, improving, lights, sound, stage show. It came from years of hard work. The more you invest, the greater chance for a return.

 

I am playing in a band now that is working its way up. two years from now we will be making more than we do now. Why? ,, more people will know us and we will be a better band that is in more demand. The highest paid band in the valley will really have nothing to do with it. As we move up some band will move into our slot in the pecking order. We may even move up faster than other bands, due to the fact that we were founded by one of the top solo performers down here. We still had to pay the dues as a full band and are still paying them. I dont see any other band having much to do with that.

 

And you'll continue to work up the ladder because that's what bands do. No bands make $X-amount starting out of the gate. When we formed we had all been in popular bands making $700-900 dollars at the time. In 2002 $1000 was top pay for any band at the time. It didn't matter what our history was with other bands or who we had played with before. We had to start right back at the bottom with pay... splitting $300-400 5-6 ways. Or worse, working off the door. Your band will move up in pay until it gets to the point that bar owners find it not financially feasible to book your act anymore... that's what a ceiling is about, right? It's never static. It's the threshold a bar owner is willing to pay in return for having a successful night. Sometimes that success is defined by receipts. Sometimes it's defined as lots of people having a blast and leaving a great reputation. In most cases it's probably a mixture of both. It's up to each owner to decide what that success means for them.

[wheresgrant3]

 

I dont think its as much as you think it is. Its my feeling that every one has to hoe their own row. I actually look at the nuts as a pretty high overhead band that may gross a lot but may put less to the back door as some of the other bands in their market. There are all kinds of things that come into play when you look at the nuts and bolts of bands and the markets they play. I do think they have a good net footprint that we should pay attention too. We all work in different markets and approach things in different ways. Thats what makes this place interesting. I dont see immitaion as the best way to pass the guy ahead of you in the market place. First and formost you have to be your own band and run your own model. Thats just my opinion mind you.

 

 

What's our overhead Tim? Van insurance? Investment in our own sound and lighting? Gas, and travel expenses for the 20% we do travel? I can tell you that our actual expense overhead is less than 10-12% our annual gross. It's the same as any band really. Then pay out to 7-8 guys verses 4-5 guys... but heres the catch... those bands are making less than half as much. Unless I'm crazy I think that $200-$400 per man is still better than $100-125? I'm sure many bands will say, well it's still too much to invest that much into a band regardless of the return... I can respect that. But they still want to be the first call for every gig opportunity that comes along right?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'm sure many bands will say, well it's still too much to invest that much into a band regardless of the return... I can respect that. But they still want to be the first call for every gig opportunity that comes along right?

 

 

IMO, a lot of bands want it all with minimum effort, and/or are just plain lazy. If they can get $800 for their 5 piece, they think they'd get the same pay with a 3 piece and therefore make more money. Or they bitch about not getting $1200 a gig, but aren't really willing to put the effort into being the type of band worth that kind of money.

 

It these sorts of bands that drag down the whole live-music business, in my view. Just like with any other business, you gotta be willing to put out some initial investment, and work your ass off both initially AND later on. (In some respects, the work load only increases as you move up the ladder.) A lot of guys don't want get involved in all that---they just want it all to be a fun, casual thing.

 

On one hand--I say "to each his own" and respect whatever a cat is doing with his music as long as he respects himself.

 

On the other hand--that attitude does get my back up somewhat to the degree I think it DOES drag a lot of other bands down with it.

[wheresgrant3]

 

I am sure they make better splits than I do ,, but we dont have 8 years under our belts yet either and we dont do squat in the way of travel for local gigs. Most have no load in and out. and if we do have to travel its two miles down the road to the hotel. We are super low overhead with a small footprint. Its the only way to operate down here.

 

 

Tim, let's make this clear... you don't have a following .... do you? At least not one that gives you some power to negotiate with venues for your asking price? I'm not talking about people who are appreciative about your music or will come out to see you because they enjoy your 'house act'. I'm talking about people who will follow you from venue to venue across a 240 square mile area? I'm not diminishing your band by any means, I'm just saying there is little to compare in this situation. My whole point about raising pay hinges on developing a local following... a draw that will come out to see the band and spend money. I'm not talking about family, and friends. I'm not talking about counting bar patrons who are regulars in an establishment or about playing to an audience in a venue that is a destination for crowds. Why do you insist on analyzing the success that I describe and then seemingly draw comparisons to your band and your gigging situation? I wouldn't compare my gigging situation to Guido's as he's primarily a private events band. Am I mistaken... are you primarily a house band for one or two local venues, playing dinner music 7-9pm? From a business perspective, how does that compare to a nightclub band, which travels from venue to venue, playing to higher volume, younger audiences between the hours of 10pm -2am? Help me understand?

[kmart]

 

...how does that compare to a nightclub band, which travels from venue to venue, playing to younger audiences between the hours of 10pm -2am?

 

Simple:

 

It doesn't.

[Consume]

 

Unless I'm crazy I think that $200-$400 per man is still better than $100-125? I'm sure many bands will say, well it's still too much to invest that much into a band regardless of the return... I can respect that. But they still want to be the first call for every gig opportunity that comes along right?

 

 

I don; think it is - I mean, at a certain point - when you're making what you guys are making, it goes from "Hobby" to "Profitable Business" if you are playing out enough that playing is all you do. I was talking o a friend of mine who is a local drummer, he's around 46, and he told me that he has never actually had a job. He started drumming in bars at 16 and he has done it ever since - he plays out 4 to 8 gigs a week pulling day and night gigs on the weekends and he said he averages about $1,000 a week. In our area, he's making WAY more than most musicians are and he is well respected and high in demand.

[TIMKEYS]

Which is why you have no problem playing for free if it gets you stage time.

 

mr happy ,, i figured it was about time for you to show up.

 

I look at it this way ,, the more ya play the better at it you get. I was out of bands for along time, playing alot sure as hell didnt hurt me. I got the time because i am retired and I didnt have to haul gear. How many gigs did you turn last year? How many in the last 5 years?

 

Things are moving along just fine with the band as far as paying gigs , booked another wedding and another street fair deal. Its not my goal in life to win your approval.

[chadd]

 

My whole point about raising pay hinges on developing a local following... a draw that will come out to see the band and spend money. I'm not talking about family, and friends. I'm not talking about counting bar patrons who are regulars in an establishment or about playing to an audience in a venue that is a destination for crowds.

 

This is a lesson that every band needs to learn. If you want to get paid, then make sure people are there to see you and not whoever happens to be playing.

[Blackbird 13]

Here's the thing though, and at least two of you already know this.. but just to reaffirm it...

 

It really doesn't matter how good a band is. Wait, let me say that again.... it really doesn't matter how good a band is! Granted, there is a certain level of proficiency and professionalism that a steady working band has to have, but having seen what I've seen, I can't say that how musically gifted, or even "tight" your band is really has as much effect on things as some of us tend to think it does.

 

As an experiment, I'm about to make a list of the top 20 or so bands in my area, based on overall gigs booked, money made, and crowd they draw. Then, I'm going to label them "Band A", "Band B"..etc, with A being the best TECHNICAL band, in terms of musicality. Finally, I'm going to post the list here of how I'd rank the actual pecking order in the area (in other words.. how popular they are, how much money they're making, how well the songlist they have connects with the crowd they have, etc..)

 

1. Band B

2. Band D

3. Band N

4. Band T

5. Band J

6. Band A

7. Band G

8. Band L

9. Band I

10. Band H

11. Band M

12. Band F

13. Band K

14. Band R

15. Band S

16. Band O

17. Band E

18. Band P

19. Band Q

20. Band C

 

... especially after that exercise of mine...I really don't think how "good" a band is from a musical standpoint matters near as much as we think it does. Song selection.. connecting with a crowd... being professional, and treating this like a business... if you ranked the bands in that, the lists would be much closer to the above.

 

Let's also take in the fact that club owners are wildly unpredictable. Not only does "talent and ability" not factor in for most of them, but I've met quite a few club managers for whom money is not the bottom line either! You literally never know what will or won't click with some of these people, but that's a variable that you have to take into consideration.

 

Either way... there is SOOOO much more to the music business than just how well you play or sing whatever it is what you play or sing.. and a VAST MAJORITY of people who try to "do something" (from trying to be in a cover band to trying to be a superstar) in this business totally miss that point. I can't count the number of musicians who I've spoken with that are probably way more talented than I am.. but that just don't get why they aren't working half as much.

 

 

 

 

Tim.. think of it like gas stations. If every gas station on a strip is charging 3.29 a gallon, then everyone can charge 3.29 a gallon. 3.28 or 3.27 if you're looking at trying to be just a LITTLE cheaper, and maybe even 3.24 if you have cheap, off brand gas. Let 7-Eleven and Exxon drop the price on gas to 3.19, and watch what the other stations on the block do. Of course.. watch what happens with the big stations RAISE prices. The other stations will raise prices as much as they think they can while still getting customers, and then everyone who's selling gas is happy.

[modulusman]

mr happy ,, i figured it was about time for you to show up. I look at it this way ,, the more ya play the better at it you get. I was out of bands for along time, playing alot sure as hell didnt hurt me. I got the time because i am retired and I didnt have to haul gear. How many gigs did you turn last year? How many in the last 5 years? Things are moving along just fine with the band as far as paying gigs , booked another wedding and another street fair deal. Its not my goal in life to win your approval.

 

Well I will play about 60 nights this year. All but one of them was a paying gig.:poke: My problem with you is that you are one of the most clueless posters on this board. My guess is if you were not playing for free/cheap then you wouldn't have a gig. The fact that you argue with posters who actually book there bands and are successful at it shows how clueless you are. See if you can get your bandleader to post here, he might actually have some valuable insight, you not so much. BLACKBIRD13- The gas station example is right on.

[MartinC]

That's certainly one way. It never worked for me. I was in one band for almost ten years. We had a decent following-nothing like Grant's. The most I ever made was 150.00 for a gig. And we did some pretty big gigs. Management was lacking IMO. We did sell some music to Bud for pretty good money, but considering the effort involved in that group, I'd have to say it was a fail from a business perspective. My current band used to have a smallish following. We were building it when we started doing corporates. We don't currently play clubs or any kind of public gigs enough to build and sustain a following, but we make more per man than most bands in our area. We have low overhead-virtually nothing but our personal gear and gas to the gig. I can't imagine being responsible for how many people show up to a gig. That was not really part of the job of bands for most of my years gigging. I can see the advantage of making it happen, but everyone wants the same thing-people at their gig. I have to hand it to Grant and his band for making that happen.

As an original music group, I've long been of the opinion that for our group, the best way to do that is regular regional radio play. Another really tough thing to get done.

 

 

 

 

This is a lesson that every band needs to learn. If you want to get paid, then make sure people are there to see you and not whoever happens to be playing.

 

[mstreck]

Here's the thing though, and at least two of you already know this.. but just to reaffirm it... It really doesn't matter how good a band is. Wait, let me say that again.... it really doesn't matter how good a band is! Granted, there is a certain level of proficiency and professionalism that a steady working band has to have, but having seen what I've seen, I can't say that how musically gifted, or even "tight" your band is really has as much effect on things as some of us tend to think it does.

 

I have to jump in here... it is because of this^^^ that we have been able to become so "successful" in our local region - even if we are a big fish in a small pond.

 

No one in my band is going to set the world on fire with our talent. This is the first or second regularly gigging band that any of us have ever been in. And none of us have ever made $100/man until this band. I'm sure that most of you think that $600 for a five piece is not that much of a stretch. But it is for a band that a lot of other bands could eat for breakfast, musically speaking. I can tell you that our success is NOT because of our musicality. It is a result of concentrating on the following:

 

1) Maintaining a setlist that consists of a wide variety of songs that people want to hear (many of them current)

2) Consistently rehearsing

3) Understanding that we need venues more than they needs us - and working with them as needed

4) Creating positive relationships with our fans both on and off stage

5) Being dependable

6) Using a soundman and upgrading our PA

 

I'm not knocking technicality. I imagine we'd be in a much better position if we were more experienced/proficient in the playing department. But we're not a "good" band - we are a popular band. Although we have venues and fans telling us how "good" we are, I guarantee they don't mean how technically well we play the songs.

 

The magic turning point was the day we stopped thinking of ourselves as musicians and started thinking of ourselves as entertainers. I suggest that anyone who wants to make money at the cover band thing does the same.

 

As far as pay ceilings go, there is another band in our area that has been raising their rates, allowing us to raise ours. And we appreciate it!

[TIMKEYS]

Well I will play about 60 nights this year. All but one of them was a paying gig.:poke: My problem with you is that you are one of the most clueless posters on this board. My guess is if you were not playing for free/cheap then you wouldn't have a gig. The fact that you argue with posters who actually book there bands and are successful at it shows how clueless you are. See if you can get your bandleader to post here, he might actually have some valuable insight, you not so much. BLACKBIRD13- The gas station example is right on.

 

Most any musicans when they first start doing a gig wouldnt have it if they didnt start out playing cheap. Time and time again we hear the same story ,,, we started as a 300 dollar a night band or we started playing yard parties etc. One of the things people need to come away from this with is you gotta start somewhere.. and its not going to be making a 400 dollar split. Trust me mod I am far from clueless when it comes to business and sales. I have always been able to get myself into situations where I achieve my goals.

[wardjames]

 

The magic turning point was the day we stopped thinking of ourselves as musicians and started thinking of ourselves as entertainers. I suggest that anyone who wants to make money at the cover band thing does the same.

 

 

+1. There's a number of factors that go into success. While you're not going to hurt yourself by getting technically proficient and tighter, you need to focus on all the other areas as well.

[wheresgrant3]

That's certainly one way. It never worked for me. I was in one band for almost ten years. We had a decent following-nothing like Grant's. The most I ever made was 150.00 for a gig. And we did some pretty big gigs. Management was lacking IMO. We did sell some music to Bud for pretty good money, but considering the effort involved in that group, I'd have to say it was a fail from a business perspective. My current band used to have a smallish following. We were building it when we started doing corporates. We don't currently play clubs or any kind of public gigs enough to build and sustain a following, but we make more per man than most bands in our area. We have low overhead-virtually nothing but our personal gear and gas to the gig. I can't imagine being responsible for how many people show up to a gig. That was not really part of the job of bands for most of my years gigging. I can see the advantage of making it happen, but everyone wants the same thing-people at their gig. I have to hand it to Grant and his band for making that happen. As an original music group, I've long been of the opinion that for our group, the best way to do that is regular regional radio play. Another really tough thing to get done.

 

Martin... you are in a sweet spot and a great location, and certainly the talent to be able to make a living doing what you do. Ours is less a living and more of a profitable side business. Still profitable none the less. There are many players in my market that hike into and around NYC making a similar living as you do. Some play in static bands, others are hired guns, touring musicians, session players... and all make substantially more than I would at a gig. Their talent is marketable enough and allows them to make a sustained living off of it. They get first call on those high dollar $gig$ opportunities exist in and around the city. My point with my previous posts is, we're creating those same $gig$ opportunities at home, where none previously existed. We're doing it by managing the band as a business. As you inferred, there are many ways to achieve success, this way is just one way to do it.

 

Eventually down the road, as we morph into more a full fledged 'wedding/events' band we will have to retool the lineup, song selection, delivery... etc. For now we're straddling both sides of the fence and for now we'll milk every last dollar from the nightclub scene that we can. It's all about age and progression. Eventually there will be a younger band, more marketable band that will try to fill our shoes... we can either choose to burn out or progress to something that fills a more mature/professional role in our local market. We chosen to progress... groundwork is laid, plans are set. The benefit is when we do move to an 'events only' package we'll have more than a decade of name recognition to support it.

[Zeromus-X]

 

it really doesn't matter how good a band is!

 

 

I disagree with this. If you mean "in technical ability" then sure. But technical ability doesn't make a good band by itself. A band that can't play technically but can engage a crowd and provide a fun time for everyone, making the bar more money, I'd argue that they are a "better band". They may not be "better musicians" but those two things are, IMO, mutually exclusive.

 

The "best band" gets paid the most money. That's why they're the best. If they weren't the best, they wouldn't be making as much money, because the band better than them would be making it.

[Blackbird 13]

 

I disagree with this. If you mean "in technical ability" then sure. But technical ability doesn't make a good band by itself. A band that can't play technically but can engage a crowd and provide a fun time for everyone, making the bar more money, I'd argue that they are a "better band". They may not be "better musicians" but those two things are, IMO, mutually exclusive. The "best band" gets paid the most money. That's why they're the best. If they weren't the best, they wouldn't be making as much money, because the band better than them would be making it.

 

 

Maybe I didn't word that right. When I said "how good a band is", I meant strictly from a technical standpoint, and nothing else. Not factoring in draw, show, lights, songlist, or anything else really. Just technical ability.

 

Really, I agree with you, and would say that that's pretty much the same thing I was saying. It seemed like some people in this thread were putting "technical ability" above everything else, which just isn't the case. Besides, you live in the same area as I do.. I'm pretty sure you could name by name at least two or three of the bands in my list.

 

Being in a cover band that stays booked is a combination of a lot of things.. and how "good" you are at playing the songs is only one piece of that puzzle...