Slightly O/T - Forbidden material

[Kramerguy]

I was a teen of the 80's - Iron Maiden, Metallica, WASP.. you name it, if it was metal and not too freekin ghey, I LOVED it.

 

Now, to my generation, DISCO was dead, an embarassement to the music community, far too sucky to even play as a joke. Of course in the mid-late 90's it finally became ok to start mashing up "one way or another" and "funky town" and stuff into medleys...

 

So I finally just realized today that a lot of the "hair metal", not so much metallica, but Maiden, Savatage, Helloween, Whitesnake, WASP, TS, etc ..any "schtick" metal band to the teens of the 90's is like disco was to us.

 

Even today, I can't get my other guitarist to even acknowledge some of the amazing solo work of the hair metal guitarists from my generation. It's sad because some of the best guitar work in history was done in the 80's IMO. But even today, it's like musical kryptonite ..

[jeff42]

sorry I am a huge maiden fan boy so I can't fathom anyone calling Maiden hair metal. or helloween or savatage...

 

But I see where you are coming from and people just lump all of it together... hell, one of our former guitar players called Iron Maiden a watered down Judas priest... I did recently turn our bassist on to maiden and Saturday night he told me he watched one of their concerts on Vh1 Classic and was blown away by the musicianship that he never knew they had.

 

UP THE IRONS!

[chadd]

That's because music is serious business now. You can't play all that stuff about having fun. I miss music being fun.

[wheresgrant3]

It took you this long to realize this.

 

Seriously, where were you during the grunge period? Probably like me clinging to Dream Theater and a bunch of power metal bands like pieces of driftwood after the Titanic sinking. The truth is... the bombast, swagger and fire the 80's brought in starting around 83 with the release of Metal Health and Pyromania was extinguished with the wet blanket Nirvana pulled over it. If there was any achievement Kurt Cobain could stand behind it would be killing the guitar solo.

 

Though as much as I've never been a fan of grunge I'm willing to concede it has still aged better than 80's hard rock, which is nothing more than a parody of bad fashion and stupid self promotion. Shame because alot of great music came out of that period, and some incredible musicianship too. I'm not embarrassed at all owning albums from ridiculous bands like King Kobra (remember all the blonde hair except for Carmine Appeice... he would have none of that {censored}), House of Lords, Autograph, even respectable a band Y&T had their sellout moments (Summertime Girls)... but I don't pine for them.Pop metal was about a superficial as pop punk was a decade ago. Anytime you take a distinct style of music and distill it to attract the masses, well then you've sold out.

 

There may have been good guitar solos and some acrobating showmanship.... but songwriting suffered tremendously.

 

Now for American and Brittish metal... Metallica... which was the anti hair metal group... and Guns and Roses which came on like a stage 4 hurricane at a tent party, JP, Maiden, Saxon, Magnum, hell even Whitesnake, Queensryche and Blue Murder (one of my favorite bands of that decade) I feel have little connection the LA Hair rock scene.

[Vito Corleone]

 

That's because music is serious business now. You can't play all that stuff about having fun. I miss music being fun.

 

 

Because nothing says "fun" quite like Iron Maiden or Metallica....

[wrongnote85]

 

Because nothing says "fun" quite like Iron Maiden or Metallica....

 

 

quote taken in a serious context--this.

[kmart]

 

Seriously, where were you during the grunge period? Probably like me clinging to Dream Theater and a bunch of power metal bands like pieces of driftwood after the Titanic sinking. The truth is... the bombast, swagger and fire the 80's brought in starting around 83 with the release of Metal Health and Pyromania was extinguished with the wet blanket Nirvana pulled over it. If there was any achievement Kurt Cobain could stand behind it would be killing the guitar solo.

 

 

IF one is to make that distinction of Cobain...well then I'll be the first one to throw the party for it: while all of you were teasing your hair and pulling on the spandex in the 80's, bowing down at the feet of Coverdale/Dickinson/Blackie Lawless/Vince Neil/whomever, I was laughing at you/that music, listening to bands like The Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Replacements, Suicidal Tendencies (first album), etc.

 

Time has allowed me to view some of that stuff you liked and that I used to think of as hair metal or hard rock garbage through a more open set of eyes, but I'd have no problem if most of it never existed in the first place...

 

In my opinion, what Cobain did was nothing more than following in the footsteps of his predecessors, playing music as a means of expressing himself, not as a way to try and trump the next guy's gratuitous excesses.

 

Of course, by the point Cobain nixed himself, what I listened to in the 80's was called 'alternative', and had become it's own sort of fashion. In this case, it was better the years before everybody glommed onto it.

[sbrett]

Pretty interesting documentary that was on VH1 Classic the other day. Continuation of the 'Metal Evolution' series. It was an episode dedicated to 80s glam/hair metal.

[Vito Corleone]

 

If there was any achievement Kurt Cobain could stand behind it would be killing the guitar solo.

 

 

The guitar solo killed itself. Long before Cobain came along, the rock guitar solo had already become a parody of itself. Faster-the-better showboating with little/no regard for melody or song context. Grunge only arose because there was a huge audience already sick of the silliness metal had become.

[kmart]

 

The guitar solo killed itself. Long before Cobain came along, the rock guitar solo had already become a parody of itself. Faster-the-better showboating with little/no regard for melody or song context. Grunge only arose because there was a huge audience already sick of the silliness metal had become .

 

 

Ding ding ding!

 

And THAT was just an extension of 70's punk rock being sick of the excesses and over-blown-production common in much disco/prog rock and AOR-type bands like the Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Floyd, etc.

[wheresgrant3]

IF one is to make that distinction of Cobain...well then I'll be the first one to throw the party for it: while all of you were teasing your hair and pulling on the spandex in the 80's, bowing down at the feet of Coverdale/Dickinson/Blackie Lawless/Vince Neil/whomever, I was laughing at you/that music, listening to bands like The Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Replacements, Suicidal Tendencies (first album), etc. Time has allowed me to view some of that stuff you liked and that I used to think of as hair metal or hard rock garbage through a more open set of eyes, but I'd have no problem if most of it never existed in the first place... In my opinion, what Cobain did was nothing more than following in the footsteps of his predecessors, playing music as a means of expressing himself, not as a way to try and trump the next guy's gratuitous excesses. Of course, by the point Cobain nixed himself, what I listened to in the 80's was called 'alternative', and had become it's own sort of fashion. In this case, it was better the years before everybody glommed onto it.

 

Well it's funny...There always seems to be some popular form of music that rushes toward commercialism from the ashes of their purist forefathers. I love SST stuff and Minor Threat, Agnotsic Front and Bad Brains and bridging over toward metal (SOD, Anthrax, Agnostic) loving it... and looking back I see some great spirit, musicianship in the bands that formed the scene.... they are all seminal... but lets be honest, it also spawned alot of terrible bands over a decade after that era. Blink 182, Good Charlotte, New Found Glory, even the Offspring have as much in common with bands like RATT and Poison than they do Husker Du and Black Flag. Just like Ratt and Poison had as much in common with proto punk bands like MC5, Iggy and NY Dolls as they Black Sabbath.

 

Amazing how things come full circle. Evolution I guess.

[wardjames]

 

The guitar solo killed itself. Long before Cobain came along, the rock guitar solo had already become a parody of itself. Faster-the-better showboating with little/no regard for melody or song context.

 

 

God some of those solos are brutal. It's like they take the latest whammy bar dive bomb trick with no regard for what key the song is in, let alone what the chord changes are.

[guitarguy19]

Because nothing says "fun" quite like Iron Maiden or Metallica....

 

 

6......6..6......raaaaawwwwwggggghhh!!!!!!

[js1]

There's a series running in Canada on Much More Music called "Metal Evolution" - basically the history of metal.

 

This thread is timely because they just ran the episode on "Glam Metal" a few nights ago. Analysis was:

 

- Hair metal was breaking in LA just in time for the launch of MTV

- It was theatrical in the clubs, which made it perfect for television.

- Unlike most metal, women liked it. So men looking for women liked it.

- All kinds of pop bands turned up the volume, and put on puffy shirts so they could get played on MTV.

- It became overexposed.

 

What they said the real catalyst for change was G&R, and they maintained that the Gunners were the bridge between hair metal and grunge.

 

Lots of interesting revelations about how the same image consultants, designers and make up artists did all the bands under the guidance of the record companies. There was also a lot of "where are they now". Most of the guys now have day jobs, and do the nostalgic circuit through the summer. The guys that they interviewed all seemed like good guys, and pretty grounded.

 

js

[jeff42]

I don'tr have much more to add. Grant pretty much nailed what I was going to reply with... Other than Blue Murder's album is a sweet forgotten gem!

 

andf I will re-post this:

Now for American and Brittish metal... Metallica... which was the anti hair metal group... and Guns and Roses which came on like a stage 4 hurricane at a tent party, JP, Maiden, Saxon, Magnum, hell even Whitesnake, Queensryche and Blue Murder (one of my favorite bands of that decade) I feel have little connection the LA Hair rock scene.

 

 

BTW that documentary series is pretty intereesting stuff. The glam episode was IMO just OK cuz I don't have much love for those bands but the other ones so far I really enjoyed.

[n9ne]

Man, I bought into the 80's hair metal scene hook, line, and sinker. I lived for it.

 

What's so funny is that back then, my friends and I loved certain bands, while regarding other bands as posers....but listening back to that stuff now, I have no idea what this distinction was based on. For example, we loved bands like Whitesnake, Ratt, and Quiet Riot......but we hated Warrant, and regarded them as a glorified boy band. Listening to the music now, there just ain't that much of a difference between what we perceived as "good" or "bad".

[chadd]

 

There's a series running in Canada on Much More Music called "Metal Evolution" - basically the history of metal. This thread is timely because they just ran the episode on "Glam Metal" a few nights ago. Analysis was: - Hair metal was breaking in LA just in time for the launch of MTV - It was theatrical in the clubs, which made it perfect for television. - Unlike most metal, women liked it. So men looking for women liked it. - All kinds of pop bands turned up the volume, and put on puffy shirts so they could get played on MTV. - It became overexposed. What they said the real catalyst for change was G&R, and they maintained that the Gunners were the bridge between hair metal and grunge. Lots of interesting revelations about how the same image consultants, designers and make up artists did all the bands under the guidance of the record companies. There was also a lot of "where are they now". Most of the guys now have day jobs, and do the nostalgic circuit through the summer. The guys that they interviewed all seemed like good guys, and pretty grounded. js

 

 

It sure sounds like these guys really nailed it with the documentary. The funny thing about GnR is that they were going the wrong way from Appetite to the Illusions.

[trevcda]

Man, I bought into the 80's hair metal scene hook, line, and sinker. I lived for it.

 

I've always found it funny that people need to explain away music from their past. That fact is, that music really moved you at some point and probaby had tremendous influence and who you are musically today. I loved hair metal. Thier are some pictures of me in spandex, big hair and too much make up that I hope never surface on the internet next time I interview for the big national corporate position! It no longer moves me like it did (never listen too forensically on a real good/accurate audio system! ) as musical tastes change, but I'm not embarassed by it and I'm always searching for the next music to bring back that feeling. Not pointing you out specifically, n9ne, your post just personified the tone of this thread.

[kmart]

 

What's so funny is that back then, my friends and I loved certain bands, while regarding other bands as posers....but listening back to that stuff now, I have no idea what this distinction was based on. For example, we loved bands like Whitesnake, Ratt, and Quiet Riot......but we hated Warrant, and regarded them as a glorified boy band. Listening to the music now, there just ain't that much of a difference between what we perceived as "good" or "bad".

 

 

What's really funny is that from where I stood at that time, it was clear/obvious to me/my peers that there really was no difference between the groups you distinguished among...and we were aware people made those VERY SPECIFIC delineations...and laughed the whole time at it.

 

"Ah, I see: Motley Crue & Ratt are 'legit', Warrant & Poison are 'poseurs'. Interesting. Is it because the latter use a different brand of hairspray and perhaps last season's mascara? Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahahah!"

 

In retrospect, it still seems just as silly, but I do agree with trevcda's point: you liked what you liked. Maybe you still like it now.

Whatever; makes no never mind in the big picture.

[Vito Corleone]

 

What's really funny is that from where I stood at that time, it was clear/obvious to me/my peers that there really was no difference between the groups you distinguished among...and we were aware people made those VERY SPECIFIC delineations...and laughed the whole time at it. "Ah, I see: Motley Crue & Ratt are 'legit', Warrant & Poison are 'poseurs'. Interesting. Is it because the latter use a different brand of hairspray and perhaps last season's mascara? Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahahah!" In retrospect, it still seems just as silly, but I do agree with trevcda's point: you liked what you liked. Maybe you still like it now. Whatever; makes no never mind in the big picture.

 

 

I played in what was a never-quite-made-the-big-time hair-metal band for most of the 80s but that music wasn't really MY passion. So I was always a bit of an outsider-looking-in on the scene. I didn't like any of it that much so I didn't see the distinctions as much as those who really loved the music and lived the scene did. The only distinction, really, between the bands mentioned is that bands like Warrant and Poison were slightly more "2nd generation" and thus were one step further from being about the "music" and one step more towards the "image". It was a small step though. But, what is hard to remember now is how fast everything moved back then. A band that was hot one year might be dead-in-the-water the next. Gonna need more than a year to get your next album out? Might as well pack it up.

 

Interesting the comment someone made earlier about the TV special and how most of the guys interviewed seemed down-to-earth. Most of the "hair metal" musicians I knew at that time were. While we all lived and bought into what we were doing, there was still always this sense among most of the musicians that it was a "show" at the same time. Most of the successful ones treated it like a business, first and foremost. Which is A) why they were successful and B) why there was a pretty obvious phoniness to the whole scene at the same time. A rather interesting dichotemy when you look back on it.

 

I think the same excesses that killed the music were also the same excesses that killed the recording industry to a large degree.

[tim_7string]

IF one is to make that distinction of Cobain...well then I'll be the first one to throw the party for it: while all of you were teasing your hair and pulling on the spandex in the 80's, bowing down at the feet of Coverdale/Dickinson/Blackie Lawless/Vince Neil/whomever, I was laughing at you/that music, listening to bands like The Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Replacements, Suicidal Tendencies (first album), etc.

 

Same here, man. I was teased and shunned for liking those bands you listed, plus DEVO, Violent Femmes, Let's Active, the B-52's, Love And Rockets, R.E.M., and more semi-obscure acts. I was very much "alternative rock" when it was very uncool to like such stuff in the area I lived. Where I went to high school, you either listened to Country or Hair Metal. I was neither. I was shocked when a band like Nirvana became the mainstream for a moment. On reflection, the '90s were amazing times in regards to music trends anyway. Still hard to believe Primus' "Winona's Big Brown Beaver" was ever on the radio.

 

As a musician, I was turned off to the idea of guitar olympics and screechingly-high vocals. It didn't move me. It wasn't 'real' music to me. Nirvana definitely was something I could relate to more than that stuff. I did enjoy Metallica, Megadeth and other speed metal/thrash metal acts around the same time period (late 80s/early 90s), but I was against a lot of that hair band stuff.

 

By the way, I like your Clem Burke avatar. I looked up that article you took it from. Pretty interesting experiment.

[tim_7string]

What they said the real catalyst for change was G&R, and they maintained that the Gunners were the bridge between hair metal and grunge.

 

I completely agree with this and have always told people the same thing ever since Nirvana/Soundgarden/Pearl Jam came out. Guns N' Roses were the only 'hair band' that I really loved and even though Axl and Duff had teased hair in the early days, they really weren't anything like Poison, Pretty Boy Floyd, Motley Crue, etc. It was darker music more rooted in the blues. Loved it! Still do.

[Kramerguy]

I don't see how hardcore punk rockers and alternative rockers who signed with labels and dressed to their respective images and played styles respective to their brand are ANY different to any metal or hair bands that signed to labels, dressed to their respective images and played music styles respective to their brands...

 

Sure you can cite creativity in the writing, but really they are still just working within a pre-defined expectation, regardless of genre.

 

That wasn't what this thread was intended to be about, but this seemed to be something worth pointing out.

[Vito Corleone]

I completely agree with this and have always told people the same thing ever since Nirvana/Soundgarden/Pearl Jam came out. Guns N' Roses were the only 'hair band' that I really loved and even though Axl and Duff had teased hair in the early days, they really weren't anything like Poison, Pretty Boy Floyd, Motley Crue, etc. It was darker music more rooted in the blues. Loved it! Still do.

 

I don't think GnR was exactly the "bridge" between hair metal and grunge, although they did occupy that space-in-time. What GnR was is what the next obivous evolution of pop/metal/rock: more bluesy and "rootsy", more "authentic" with the trappings of "glam" stripped away. While going in a slightly different direction, the Red Hot Chili Peppers also represented the same 'next evolution'.

 

But what happened is that grunge so matter-of-factly killed so much of the earlier rock that a lot of the rock bands that attempted to follow in GnR's path never got a foothold. And the kids coming up who liked grunge didn't see any real distinction between bands like GnR and Ratt anyway. It was STILL all way-too-glam for them.

 

So the reason I would hesisate to use the word "Bridge" to describe GnR is that I don't think there were any grunge bands that gave two {censored}s about GnR, any more than they did about the hair bands. GnR may have been on a bridge leading away from hair metal, but it didn't land in grunge.

[sbrett]

I don't see how hardcore punk rockers and alternative rockers who signed with labels and dressed to their respective images and played styles respective to their brand are ANY different to any metal or hair bands that signed to labels, dressed to their respective images and played music styles respective to their brands... Sure you can cite creativity in the writing, but really they are still just working within a pre-defined expectation, regardless of genre. That wasn't what this thread was intended to be about, but this seemed to be something worth pointing out.

 

Can of worms...you opened it.