Members tlbonehead Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Been gigging much? Get used to it...... most club owners aren't this bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Don't no show.. just do like has been said.. call the club, and calmly cancel the date. If they ask why, simply tell them that this last incident cost you money, and that you can't afford to run your business that way. Wish him the best, be friendly, but make sure he understands that your band isn't willing to do business that way, and cancel the dates. This is the correct course of action. I would also make it known privately to other musicians that this venue does this type of thing and for them to stay away. Eventually his business will go under anyway. If this is how treats hired entertainment I can only imagine how he deals with other aspects of his business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 My Brother, Get the contract out and have him sign it with a down payment for the next bookings, if not tell him sorry, based on this history we do not feel comfortable booking the deal based on a verbal agreement. A. If he cancels you at least get the deposit B. With a signed contract you can at least make it a civil manner in small claims court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 most club owners aren't this bad. I agree... I'm not a fan of labeling this entire business as a bunch of sleazy people. I think I've run in to a couple assholes in the entire 25 years of playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm surprised that so many of you guys use contracts and actually get deposits on bar gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Screw the high road. This owner doesn't even know what that is.. Call him and tell him you want 100% up front for the next gig TWO WEEKS in advance. Have him sign a contract that states that if he cancels, you keep the money. If he has the audacity to ask you why, tell him, straight up, don't beat around the bush. He didn't just screw you guys, he royally {censored}ed you over, and has demonstrated he cannot be trusted, so tell him that! If he doesn't want to sign a deal and pay, that just proves that he is willing to screw you again. You won't lose gigs at other venues over it. So long as you don't go online and trash them, just keep the business personal and between the band and him, and you really can't do wrong for your band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Kramerguy, I don't get it. Why not just write that venue off and be done with it? Why go through the rigors of drawing up a contract and then trying to collect the money up front two weeks before the gig? lol Chances are he will just not pay you and you will now have a gig cancelled last minute AGAIN, only this time two weeks out. Better to just wash your hands of that venue in my opinion. I'm surprised that so many of you guys use contracts and actually get deposits on bar gigs. I never do and I have been gigging lots with my band over the last 18 months. Honestly, I have a philosophy about this: I always give a venue owner ONE CHANCE to screw my band without fear of reprisals of any sort, well other than not playing there again and of course informing all the other bands in the area (IN PRIVATE!) about the shady business practices of the venue owner. So far, my band has never been out-and-out screwed, but one venue owner did treat us a little on the sleazy side, nothing huge or over-the-top, but he promised he would pay the band "at least $400.00 plus would also factor in how much he made that night," which was fine at the time because we were really just getting started. Anyway, he served food there, and when the band got there, I went into his office before ordering any food or drinks and asked him what the policy was for ordering for the band. At the time, I was not the band leader, the bass player (who I kicked out about 8 months ago was) and so the bar/restaurant owner (this big, fat tub of lard) was really evasive and said, "Well what are you charging me?" or something, and said that it would depend on that. At the end of the night, after we brought a ton of people down, he not only paid us the minimum promised, BUT he charged the band full price (plus sales tax) for all food and drinks. I would have probably been all right with that had he not made it sound like the price of food and drink were tied somehow to what we charged him and then paid us the minimum promised AND charged us full price plus tax. In other words, had he just said at the outset, "Sorry, but my policy is you pay full price plus tax for everything," then I would have said fine and respected the policy. Anyway, we took the money and did not say a word to him about this because technically he didn't screw us. It was just a little bit of a sleazy way to act in my opinion, given how evasive he was when I asked him about the cost of food and drink to the band. But as we became more popular, apparently word got back to him that other bars have been making money off of us, so he tried to book the band again through my band's website recently. So, rather than out and out turn him down, I wrote him an email back letting him know that I was not happy about how we were treated when we played there and that I would be open to playing again, but I had some issues. When he asked what they were, I clearly and tactfully delineated what I had a problem with and lol he went ballistic as if I had just slept with his wife and urinated on him. He apparently did not want to hear that I took issue with his treatment of us, and so I politely declined to bring the band back there and that was that. Long story short, though, Potts, I am with you. If a bar owner wants to screw me or cancel a date last minute, let him. I am not going to take him to small claims court or try to force him to honor a contract, so why even bother having one? In this business, which is almost 99% cash, I feel a contract sets the stage for an adversarial relationship right out of the gate. lol Hell I even tell bar owners about my policy if they ask me. One guy was chatting with me on a night he booked us and asked if we had been screwed over a lot since we started playing. I told him that I have been screwed once or twice years ago, but that in this band I have been lucky. I then shrugged and told him the same thing I said in this post, that I will allow a venue owner to screw me once if that's what he or she really wants. He laughed and I have been playing in his club about once a month since and he has always treated my band very well. In fact, he had to cancel a date in July with two months notice and he felt so bad about it that the last gig he gave me a hundred dollars extra for the band to make it up to us. Anyway, sorry this got so long, but my point is that I think it is a TERRIBLY unprofessional thing to do to just keep the gig on the books and not show up, or to show up and be abusive and combative as n9ne suggests. This is one of those instances where, for pure selfish reasons, I would prefer to keep my band's reputation stellar and intact. If that means that a bar owner "gets over" on me once, then so be it. But in addition to not wanting to hurt my reputation (even if I am right and he is dead wrong) there are also my band's fans to think about. We have a nice following, and do I really want to screw them over by not showing up to a gig with no warning OR showing up and making a mockery of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Kramerguy, I don't get it. Why not just write that venue off and be done with it? Why go through the rigors of drawing up a contract and then trying to collect the money up front two weeks before the gig? lol Chances are he will just not pay you and you will now have a gig cancelled last minute AGAIN, only this time two weeks out. Better to just wash your hands of that venue in my opinion. I've been on the receiving end of exactly what the OP experienced. I've done all of the above regarding how we've handled it, and frankly, taking the 'high road' means nothing. It's a business relationship, nothing more, nothing less. If you get jipped, you don't necessarily need to terminate the relationship, it CAN be salvaged, but you absolutely need to change it- if the guy is willing to pay up front, then you can still do business. If he won't then at least HE made that decision. By never going there again, you are just closing doors. By 'alerting' other bands .. well that doesn't really work, as half the bands out there don't care and will keep playing there til it happens to them, and the other half will just see you as a whiny band that cries in their cereal when things don't go their way; which is why I said to just keep it between the band and the owner. Change the deal, move forward, or close the door, I don't care, but I would personally be stern and let the owned know exactly where I stand and why. There's a club here that my band no longer plays because the owner constantly changed the deal halfway thru the gig- when he called me to book 2012, I told him no, and exactly why. I told him we would be happy to play there for an up-front guarantee, to which he declined... BUT in all of it, he told me flat out he respects me for being forthcoming, and last two times I stopped in, he covered my tab entirely. I think we will probably play there again someday, but we both know it will be on our terms, not his. YMMV, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I disagree with you on at least two points, Kramerguy: First, I don't know about your relationship with bands, but in my area, we all have a running list of clubs that have screwed various bands, and this is helpful information. I also know which bands are basically primadonnas and not to take their admonitions or warnings seriously. But we have a pretty nice network in Long Island (where most of our gigs are) and we all keep nice track of who is getting screwed by whom. I also disagree about a contract rectifying the above situation because honestly, what's to stop the owner from just blowing you off and not paying you two weeks before the gig as you suggested be writ into the contract? Now if your band is like mine and you have a website and a calendar of upcoming gigs, you now have to send out a mass mail to your entire fanbase alerting them to the fact that the gig in two weeks has been cancelled. Screw that! In my opinion, if a venue owner screws me I won't have ANYTHING to do with him unless there is a really good reason, such as lol the Board of Health closed him down for mice and that's why he cancelled us. Sorry, but there are way too many places to play for me to jump through hoops trying to salvage a business relationship with someone who has demonstrated zero business ethics. And contracts, for a CASH BAND, in my opinion, are opening huge cans-o-worms for you if you are flying under the radar of the proverbial tax man.\n By the way, TO YOU perhaps taking the high road means nothing, but to me it is everything. I won't do business any other way. And if I am ever tempted NOT to take the high road, then I just think "Screw the venue owner, I am going to take the high road for our fans! They don't need to deal with all these last minute cancellations and other extraneous bull{censored} when all I have to do is cut all ties with an unscrupulous bar owner!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'd just call him up and cancel. Just say something like "sorry, we only deal with professionals. If we don't use a contract, then we have to take a person at their word. When their word means nothing, we are no longer interested in dealing with that person." As much as you'd love to leave him holding the bag, let him know that you ARE professionals, and you are dealing with this in a professional manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mineame Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Just call the guy and cancel the next gig. You need to remove your band from this type of situation. If he has done this before, he will do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'd just call him up and cancel. Just say something like "sorry, we only deal with professionals. If we don't use a contract, then we have to take a person at their word. When their word means nothing, we are no longer interested in dealing with that person."As much as you'd love to leave him holding the bag, let him know that you ARE professionals, and you are dealing with this in a professional manner. I wouldn't explain it. That gives the guy a chance to argue. Just call up and cancel in as few words as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FitchFY Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 By the way, TO YOU perhaps taking the high road means nothing, but to me it is everything. I won't do business any other way. And if I am ever tempted NOT to take the high road, then I just think "Screw the venue owner, I am going to take the high road for our fans! They don't need to deal with all these last minute cancellations and other extraneous bull{censored} when all I have to do is cut all ties with an unscrupulous bar owner!" Agreed here. That being said, I get Kramerguy's point, and he's right, too -- if you wanted to keep the club and gig, it could be done by going 100% business formal in the nature of the relationship. For some of us, though, that's not what we'd do, such as ChiroVette and myself. If I can't trust a bar on our handshake, then I'll bring my crowd and my band to their competition. I don't work with bad people, pure and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I disagree with you on at least two points, Kramerguy: First, I don't know about your relationship with bands, but in my area, we all have a running list of clubs that have screwed various bands, and this is helpful information. I also know which bands are basically primadonnas and not to take their admonitions or warnings seriously. But we have a pretty nice network in Long Island (where most of our gigs are) and we all keep nice track of who is getting screwed by whom. I also disagree about a contract rectifying the above situation because honestly, what's to stop the owner from just blowing you off and not paying you two weeks before the gig as you suggested be writ into the contract? Now if your band is like mine and you have a website and a calendar of upcoming gigs, you now have to send out a mass mail to your entire fanbase alerting them to the fact that the gig in two weeks has been cancelled. Screw that! In my opinion, if a venue owner screws me I won't have ANYTHING to do with him unless there is a really good reason, such as lol the Board of Health closed him down for mice and that's why he cancelled us. Sorry, but there are way too many places to play for me to jump through hoops trying to salvage a business relationship with someone who has demonstrated zero business ethics. And contracts, for a CASH BAND, in my opinion, are opening huge cans-o-worms for you if you are flying under the radar of the proverbial tax man.\n By the way, TO YOU perhaps taking the high road means nothing, but to me it is everything. I won't do business any other way. And if I am ever tempted NOT to take the high road, then I just think "Screw the venue owner, I am going to take the high road for our fans! They don't need to deal with all these last minute cancellations and other extraneous bull{censored} when all I have to do is cut all ties with an unscrupulous bar owner!" the OP asked for opinions, I gave him mine, and you chimed in with yours. It's just two vastly different approaches to resolve a problem. Taking the high road isn't meaningless in the sense of honorable business, I meant it in the sense that it's meaningless as a negotiating point as it would pertain to reaching a workable agreement. I shouldn't have had to spell that out. Anyways, let the OP weigh the opinions here, cause I really don't care to debate situational band politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 Kramerguy, I don't think there is anything wrong with a good debate in a thread like this. In fact, I am quite sure the OP probably has his own points to bring up to counter or agree with ones we have. Nobody here is trying to force their opinions down his throat and we certainly aren't hijacking the thread. Like you said, we are giving him our opinions, mine, yours, and everyone else's. I like the way FitchFY summed up my point, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted June 4, 2012 Members Share Posted June 4, 2012 I would have told him right then on the phone you won't see us in August unless you pay us a cancellation fee. Then I would have explained to him why we needed a cancellation fee-because we are all busy people and we set this time aside to work at your club. That we could have taken other work or made other plans but now it's too late for that. That since he's got a free band for the day, it shouldn't be a big deal to pay us half of our fee as a cancellation expense. If he doesn't get that, he's too stupid to do business with. As far as contracts, I've rarely done them for clubs, no matter if it's cash or check. Not reporting cash, btw, is shortsighted in my view, especially if you have a website with all your dates on it Sometimes a club will send you a Jan 31st surprise even though they paid you in cash- a big 'ol 1099, and if you doled out the cash to your bandmates without getting their SS numbers, you could be looking at a healthy liability which will more than negate all that green you thought you were making. Amazing how your loving bandmates will hesitate to part with their SS numbers come Jan. Maybe they think since you got the gig, you should pay their taxes. There is also the issue of writing off legit deductions, of which you should keep a record, including a log of miles driven to the gig, rehearsals, lessons, even trips to GC to buy strings. Not only does that keep you right with the gov, it lets you know how much your actually making. That can be an eye opening number, and if it turns out you actually lost money, you can write that off against other income. I've been audited by the IRS specifically regarding my music income, and it was critical that I had those records. Another benefit is that once you realize how much your netting, your likely to raise your prices. My Brothers, I previously posted about a difficult club owner reneging on our agreed upon fee, threatening to cancel future gigs if we didn't play for his suggested fee, etc. We were a hit at his marina, plenty of fans showed up, he booked us for two future dates while we were playing the first one. We were booked for this Sunday, from 1-5 in the afternoon. His Facebook event had us listed also. Several of us received hurried phone calls late yesterday evening from him with this BS story. "Guys, I have to cancel you for tomorrow. Some guy listening to the band today will pay their fee totally if I book them tomorrow in your place. I can't give up that kind of money so you're not playing tomorrow. I'll see you guys on the date we booked in August!" First, no contract or down payment on our part. Second, I don't totally believe his story. Thirdly, how can one band do that to another? Fourth, he thinks we'll actually play for him in August! I think he talked the Saturday band into playing for some sort of cheaper fee, and it may have been subsidized by one of his customers, putting us out. He's gonna get a surprise in August we don't show up. Turnaround is fair play. We talked to many local bands last night and today, and they all confirmed what a sleaze ball he is. None of them will play there because of his shenanigans. Our first time went great, and we let our guard down. Shame on us! And, I'm gonna have a little discussion with the band that took our place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members summit111 Posted June 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 My Brothers, We had a band discussion and we won't be doing any future business with that guy. I called him and cancelled the August gig explaining we can't play a venue that would arbitrarily cancel us with almost 0% notice. Also explained that our fans were disappointed when they showed up Sunday and another band was there. And further explained we lost money on the entire deal and we can't continue to conduct business that way. The silence on the other end of the phone was deafening for about 3 seconds, then he said OK, I've been playing professionally for over 20 years and this is the first club owner to pull a stunt like this. I guess the odds were catching up to me! My wife and I enjoyed a beautiful day in the French Quarter Sunday. Sort of washed the memory of that sleaze bag out of my mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted June 5, 2012 Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 Glad to hear it, summit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted June 5, 2012 Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 At least you had a good day-you only live once-enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members n9ne Posted June 5, 2012 Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well, okay. But I still think the "pig-blood-and-raw-meat catapult" approach would have been a lot more awesomely bitchin'. (Not too sure the club owner would have agreed with me initially.....but once the lawsuits and restraining orders were all taken care of, I'm sure he would have sat back and realized just how friggin' awesome the show was.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members New Trail Posted June 5, 2012 Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 This is the second time, right, so that's bad on YOU, right?!? Just cancel the other show.If you no show it just makes you look like an ahole...especially if people who like you see you are playing there and turn up. Cancel the August gig (in a nice way) and be done with this guy and his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members delaware dave Posted June 9, 2012 Members Share Posted June 9, 2012 The fact that you said ' did it again' indicates he knew he could do it to you again. Personally i would write the club off, leave the august date booked and no show it. I would highly doubt that this would cause any issues with other clubs and will send him a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members summit111 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 9, 2012 Dave, That club owner has been trying low balling bands for a while. We gave it a shot once, had fun with our fans, he made a lot of money, and he turned when we wanted to revert to our normal fee. Probably why he booked a lower tier band in our place at the last minute. We cancelled the August gig taking the high road, something he knows nothing about! Too many other nice places to play without dealing with sleaze bags... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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