Band Recording to get the drum tracks down (only): Is this still the norm?

[New Trail]

Our originals band is going to self-record. The thinking that has been presented to me is that the only important thing is to get good drum tracks and the rest can be added. From my (limited) studio experience I know this is correct and seems to be the current recording philosophy, but I still don't like the idea that everything else is a scratch track and can be fixed later. Am I wrong? Do others feel the same way I do?

[FitchFY]

There's no "correct" to what you're saying, but at the end of the day, in my eyes, yes, it all starts with having a great drum tracking.

 

From there, instruments can add in the layers... of course, if you want a live feel, then recording together is a bit more clutch. Your opinion may vary, but from time on both sides of the board, I'd ALWAYS start with solid drum takes.

 

Good luck!

[BATCAT]

 

Our originals band is going to self-record. The thinking that has been presented to me is that the only important thing is to get good drum tracks and the rest can be added. From my (limited) studio experience I know this is correct and seems to be the current recording philosophy, but I still don't like the idea that everything else is a scratch track and can be fixed later. Am I wrong? Do others feel the same way I do?

 

 

Let me make sure I understand: you talking about recording the whole band, live, with isolation, with a click track?

 

If so- yes, everything else can be redone later. In fact, even the drums can be. That is the advantage to recording in that manner.

 

Whether or not it's your favorite way depends on your individual preferences and also what the music call for. I like recording this way and it's how I work in the studio the majority of the time. One of the main advantages is the ability focusing on one instrument at a time, from both a sonic and performance angle.

 

What is it that bothers you about it?

[SLScott86]

I would say it's the norm. Our drummer used a click and a guitar track. If you want a live feel, Mic it all up and go for it. You won't be able to dial in the mix quite the same probably due to bleed. If you aim to be TOO perfect it can suck that energy out quick.

[Flogger59]

I track a three or four piece band with live drums in an 11'x23' space. The bass cab is at head height about 3' from the drum overheads. There is nearly 0 bleed. How? By choosing your mic patterns carefully, and setting amps up so that the player gets the blast, not the guy across the room.

I use Cascade ribbon mics xy facing down at the kit and the bass cab is right in the null. It's a good way to record an acoustic player, too. Put the mic over his right shoulder looking down at the bridge at a height where the player's mouth is even with the null. Nukes a lot of breathing noise.

[backtoblue]

For our last CD, my band recorded guitar and vox scratch tracks to a click and had our drummer overdub. The results were decent but I think it would have come out a lot better (and lot less redundant work) just playing live with no click, leakage be damned. We're going to do the next one like that.

[Lee Knight]

My preferred method is...

 

Record a scratch vocal along with a click and any guide guitar or keys for the vocal, but those are just for the vocal to get pitch and will be turn down, unless it is an integral part of the song. Now you've got a scratch vocal.

 

In Pro Tools or whatever DAW you're running, have the whole basic bed of the arrangement playing at once. 2 rhythm guitars, bass and drums. Keys too if they're rhythm section oriented. Now take a pass with the click (or shaker track preferably). After the first take, create all new playlists in Pro Tools. Except for the vocal scratch track. Leave that there. So you're recording over the same spot but the first take is protected in the playlists.

 

Do as many full rhythm section takes, concentrating on vibe, groove, pocket, tuning. Then... in post, before overdubs of solos, vocals, guitar doubles etc., you can literally comp together, section by section, where the band was hitting it just right. You can take the 3rd chorus and move it to C1 and C2 if you need. You can cut the guitar solo in half if you need. Double it. This part is where the feel and vibe of the record iis made. Take your time. This ususally took me 2 weeks to sort through what was the best of the best.

 

This allows the band to get a spot on, vibey take, without the worry that no one can make a mistake.

 

Layering one at a time as suggested in the OP works fine but... it also robs you of that cool thing your band does when it's hitting it just right. That will never happen in a stacked session. But running it down together and being able to pick and choose the best WHOLE BAND bits, is just freaking great. And it doesn't have to be whole band bits, You could use the bass from take 1 and the drums from take 3, or any variable within. But whole band bits are best. The heart knows.

 

I produced ten albums using this method and every band fell in love with the benefits and had zero negative issues to report.

[backtoblue]

 

My preferred method is... Record a scratch vocal along with a click and any guide guitar or keys for the vocal, but those are just for the vocal to get pitch and will be turn down, unless it is an integral part of the song. Now you've got a scratch vocal. In Pro Tools or whatever DAW you're running, have the whole basic bed of the arrangement playing at once. 2 rhythm guitars, bass and drums. Keys too if they're rhythm section oriented. Now take a pass with the click (or shaker track preferably). After the first take, create all new playlists in Pro Tools. Except for the vocal scratch track. Leave that there. So you're recording over the same spot but the first take is protected in the playlists. Do as many full rhythm section takes, concentrating on vibe, groove, pocket, tuning. Then... in post, before overdubs of solos, vocals, guitar doubles etc., you can literally comp together, section by section, where the band was hitting it just right. You can take the 3rd chorus and move it to C1 and C2 if you need. You can cut the guitar solo in half if you need. Double it. This part is where the feel and vibe of the record iis made. Take your time. This ususally took me 2 weeks to sort through what was the best of the best. This allows the band to get a spot on, vibey take, without the worry that no one can make a mistake. Layering one at a time as suggested in the OP works fine but... it also robs you of that cool thing your band does when it's hitting it just right. That will never happen in a stacked session. But running it down together and being able to pick and choose the best WHOLE BAND bits, is just freaking great. And it doesn't have to be whole band bits, You could use the bass from take 1 and the drums from take 3, or any variable within. But whole band bits are best. The heart knows. I produced ten albums using this method and every band fell in love with the benefits and had zero negative issues to report.

 

 

I never thought of doing full band takes to a pre-recorded scratch. That's brilliant! We're going to try this.

[New Trail]

 

For our last CD, my band recorded guitar and vox scratch tracks to a click and had our drummer overdub. The results were decent but I think it would have come out a lot better (and lot less redundant work) just playing live with no click, leakage be damned. We're going to do the next one like that.

 

 

I want to record live but I guess my idea was overruled. I hate piecing songs together because they SOUND pieced together to me.

[J.Paul]

 

....... but I still don't like the idea that everything else is a scratch track and can be fixed later. Am I wrong? Do others feel the same way I do?

 

No you're not wrong (see above posts)

Yeah some people feel the way you do. There are some organic sounding or blues bands that like to track everything at once.... but if you're doing the same old metal, pop, rock, country stuff that 90 % of everyone else is doing, they track the drums first and overdub everything else most of the time.

 

I personally feel like it's a flawed method because you're stuck filling in the holes based on the sonics of the drums as opposed to making decisions about how EVERYTHING is gonna lay when you are hearing (most) everything and then tracking everything at once.BUT they've been making some pretty good sounding CDs the other way too...

 

If you have someone in your band that feels competent in doing it the way they know how why challenge the norm and make his (or her) job harder? Just curious

[rangefinder]

 

My preferred method is... Record a scratch vocal along with a click and any guide guitar or keys for the vocal, but those are just for the vocal to get pitch and will be turn down, unless it is an integral part of the song. Now you've got a scratch vocal.

 

 

Somehow I'm missing the point of this step... I don't see why the players would benefit particularly from having a scratch vocal. As a singer, personally I'd want the players to get locked in and rockin' without being particularly concerned about me, rather than being constrained by what I happen to do in a specific take, especially if you're just chucking it later anyway.

 

Obviously we'd agree on key, tempo, sonic space (e.g. baritone this verse, tenor in the chorus, etc.) beforehand, but otherwise, could you (or somebody) explain more about the benefits of the scratch vocal?

[JimboKeys]

 

Somehow I'm missing the point of this step... I don't see why the players would benefit particularly from having a scratch vocal.

 

Simply put, it's so everyone knows where they are in the song. After doing five or 6 takes of laying down rhythm guitar tracks, it's easy for the the guitar player to get lost ("is this the second verse or the third?"). That's where having vocals present is a must.

 

- Jimbo

[Lee Knight]

Simply put, it's so everyone knows where they are in the song. After doing five or 6 takes of laying down rhythm guitar tracks, it's easy for the the guitar player to get lost ("is this the second verse or the third?"). That's where having vocals present is a must. - Jimbo

 

That... and the fact that it's a song with words and singing and stuff and not an instrumental. You're playing rhythm section tracks in support of a vocal. And while you could have the singer sing the scratch live each pass, it'll destroy his pipes eventually, and the singer might be the guitarist as well. This lets him concentrate on just the guitar.

[Chicken Monkey]

 

AFAIK we are NOT using a click track!

 

 

Prepare yourself for a world of frustration.

 

It's been a long time since I recorded with a drummer, but I think the last time we did it, we did click track--->guitarist/singer's headphones, with his guitar and voice going into the drummer's headphones, and the drummer playing along with the guitarist/singer. In this case, the singer was the writer of the song, so he knew it well enough to put in all the punches, spaces, etc., so the drummer could put his fills in where they belonged.

[rangefinder]

And while you could have the singer sing the scratch live each pass

 

Nope, I never thought that was a realistic option... I just didn't realize that the players particularly cared about the vocal, and might even find it distracting. From what I've read, I thought many lead singers didn't even bother showing up until near the end of the sessions, and then whoever was involved in the vocals (lead, harmony, etc.) would lay them on the top as the very last step.

 

But you and others make excellent points.

 

As with all of this stuff, I suppose every band finds the process that works best for itself. (Or not, as the case may be. )

[ski219]

We did this last month - spent a weekend in a studio recording drums with scratch rhythm guitar and bass and vocals. We wanted to get real bass tracks but most are not what they should be so we are re recording bass and everything else at home with pro tools set up and some good preampage. Our drummer played to click tracks and we are very happy with what we have in the can. We are hiring a guy from the studio to mix everything once we are finished recording; he did our EP and we really liked what he did with that. I find for reasons if impartiality and expertise it is best to go outside the band for mixing.

[backtoblue]

 

This lets him concentrate on just the guitar.

 

 

That, and the added benefit - at least in our case - of not having the singer's live vocal leaking into the drum overheads or amps. We don't have a lot of room and definitely don't have the luxury of an iso booth. Plus, the singer and I can get together outside of band rehearsal to work out the arrangements and lay down his scratch tracks, saving us all some time.

[BATCAT]

 

AFAIK we are NOT using a click track!

 

 

If you're recording instruments separately and not doing a live take of the bands as a whole, IMO it's usually a mistake not to use a click. For a whole bunch of reasons.

[Potts]

 

If you're recording instruments separately and not doing a live take of the bands as a whole, IMO it's usually a mistake not to use a click. For a whole bunch of reasons.

 

 

Don't be a fool son! Use the click! I can hear it now, "I'd like to throw a sample of a nice________ in this tune but I'm not going to cut and paste each one. You guys really should have used a click."

 

How about, "Man this sounds great except for the second verse. Let's just grab the first verse and plop it in there. We cant. The timing is messed up in the first verse. {censored} we really should have used a click track."

 

We could do this all day...anyone else?

[ckcondon]

My first studio experience back in the tape days, was to record the basic tracks (Drums, bass, rhythm guitar). It was frustrating because multiple takes were necessary to get a good take from everyone. Took a lot of time and $$.

Most recently, I went in with my singer/guitarist who wrote the songs. He laid down a rhythm guitar track with scratch vox and a click. I played drums to that and then we built the track from there.

Worked great for several reasons, one of which was that we all didn't have to sit around all day waiting to record.

[kmart]

 

Nope, I never thought that was a realistic option... I just didn't realize that the players particularly cared about the vocal, and might even find it distracting.

 

 

Yeah...no.

 

As a player, I want to understand what EVERY other instrument is doing as well so I can appropriately support AND avoid stepping on them, etc.

 

A singer may emphasize a certain phrase or even just a syllable where it makes sense for the drummer to mimic his dynamic emphasis by adding in kick drum hits in the same rhythm, etc. Not going to get that if they don't hear what he's doing.

 

 

I've recorded under numerous circumstances/situations, and the best cases have always been...

 

1-entire band is well rehearsed on the material, and a fair amount of pre-production homework, utilizing rough recordings, rehearsing to a click until it's comfortable for the drummer, etc., has been done. It is absolutely helpful if everyone can play through the song parts without vocals, but they should also be able to adjust to changing arrangements.

 

2-band set up to record with appropriate isolation between drums and everything else, record a decent live attempt from everyone, including drums, to click. If the drums end up a keeper...so much the better.

 

3-additional takes on drums using scratch tracks from everything else INCLUDING click. If it takes more than 2-3 attempts to get a great take, you haven't done enough homework (step 1 above).

 

4-additional individual tracking from bass, then guitars, other overdubs, then vox.

[rangefinder]

 

I've recorded under numerous circumstances/situations, and the best cases have always been... 1-entire band is well rehearsed on the material, and a fair amount of pre-production homework, utilizing rough recordings, rehearsing to a click until it's comfortable for the drummer, etc., has been done. It is absolutely helpful if everyone can play through the song parts without vocals, but they should also be able to adjust to changing arrangements. 2-band set up to record with appropriate isolation between drums and everything else, record a decent live attempt from everyone, including drums, to click. If the drums end up a keeper...so much the better. 3-additional takes on drums using scratch tracks from everything else INCLUDING click. If it takes more than 2-3 attempts to get a great take, you haven't done enough homework (step 1 above). 4-additional individual tracking from bass, then guitars, other overdubs, then vox.

 

 

Yeah, that seems to make a whole bunch of sense, and agrees with what the others with experience are saying. Thanks for the summary!

 

Regarding the click track, I'm just getting started with Garageband, and it seems nearly essential. Even with Garageband, you can automate any tempo changes, and even with Garageband, there's a ton of stuff you can do much more easily later if everyone's recorded to a click.

[salislore]

I'm in complete agreement with KMART's summary. I've also found that's what has always worked best. Luckily I started working with pros early, so I learned the right way early on. Most importantly you have to use a click track!

[Hegmatronicon]

My advice?

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RECORD WITHOUT A CLICK TRACK!

[New Trail]

UPDATE:

The initial plan was to record everything live with bass, keys, and two guitars going direct with the idea of getting good usable drum track, and anything else was a bonus. Guitars were to be guide tracks with a direct line from the pedalboards with the idea of completely redoing the guitar tracks (micing an amp) later, and a guide track vocal, with vocals to be redone later. We would all have headphones and have separate individual mixes. Then we found out that we couldn't have separate individual mixes so we scrapped the headphone idea, which meant that we would have to mic everything and play live and try for the best separation that we could. Then we decided not to have live vocals at all, and only mouth the words so we would know where we were in the songs. We didn't use a click track.

 

Despite all of this it actually went pretty well. Now it will be time for any overdubs, and then vocals.

 

We have NO budget and are doing this ourselves. Wish us luck!