Gorillas in a cage-playing for the 1%

[cephus]

 

I'd rather work a boring 8 hour/day job (with benefits, very important the older I get and the more stuff goes wrong with me), have a rewarding couple of hours after the day job teaching guitar and a few hours on some weekends fronting and leading my own band the way I want it than to be at the mercy of other people that decide when they will pay me or when they won't. The FT day job/lessons PT with gigs on weekends works best for me. YMMV.

 

 

This is what I was trying to say. Sorry if I came off saying that anyone who is a full time musician is a low life. I didn't mean that at all. I am sure that in some markets, musicians could make as much as I do. And it probably isn't that hard to make the pittance that I was making in '99. Maybe 40 or 50k. I apologize if I insulted anyone.

 

Guido,

 

To answer your question, like 95% of the people on this forum, I am in IT.

[Vito Corleone]

Right! Of course you can.

Ok then.

But what you LIKE to think and what somebody else LIKES to think aren't the same. So... care if you what to, and of course you can, but I prefer not to. I admit it's not easy, but the honest truth, I've worked hard at learning how to not give {censored} about other's opinion of my choices. I highly recommend it!

I think you're mistaken that I care much of what others think of me or what I do. It's not the same thing as asking other people why THEY care or expressing opinions about the subject.

Like you've done here.

[Vito Corleone]

To answer your question, like 95% of the people on this forum, I am in IT.

 

 

And, I would imagine, a good deal of what you do every day involves playing to somebody else's tune in order to earn the paycheck. Few of us are so lucky/talented that we don't have to do this at some level and at some point in our lives. If some choose to do it with music, I don't see what's wrong with that. I know many people who feel that the worst day playing music for money beats the best day of working behind a computer to do so.

 

Sure, we've all got our personal lines we draw. For me, it was playing fulltime in a casino duo. A year of doing that for a living and I was done. Too much of a 'job' for me. But I know many guys who are perfectly happy doing the exact same thing. Good for them. I'm happy that they are happy. Is there anything to be gained by me telling them all the reasons I personally didn't like it and the list of things that I consider 'beneath' me to do for money that they are doing every day?

 

What would be the point of that? Just to try and make myself feel better?

[mrcpro]

I've done many gigs for the rich over the years. In most cases we were treated well, but definitely as help.

 

There was this one gig long ago that really fits the "Gorillas in a Cage" description though. This was back in the late 1960s. An upscale black tie event held in the ballroom of the largest hotel in downtown Seattle wanted a "hippie" band (curiosity I suppose). We were art students at the University of Washington (not totally hippies) so our manager tagged us because he felt we were relatively safe.

 

The entire gig felt like we were on display.

 

We were promised a meal and when that was declined, I left the stage and started eating food off the plates of the guests. I was a rebellious impulsive kid - what can I say. But I had had enough of this "on display" business. Definitely got some attention - and incredibly some "oohs" and "aahs" like it was part of a show or something.

 

The maitre d angrily told me to stop or he'd have me thrown out. Even the leader couldn't believe what I was doing. But hey- I gave 'em all something to talk about. Fortunately we still got paid.

 

I worked with that leader (a guitar player) on and off again right up until the 1980s. Throughout the time we were together, he would tell that story over and over again or I probably would have forgotten about it. It always amazed him...

[cephus]

Is there anything to be gained by me telling them all the reasons I personally didn't like it and the list of things that I consider 'beneath' me to do for money that they are doing every day?

If that was how I came off to you, then I apologize again. I don't even know if you were the guy that said he wanted to stand on a street corner and bang on a garbage can lid all day. But, that statement really couldn't be interpreted any other way than $$$>music. or $$$>Pride.

I just don't support that. Music has been awfully good to me over the years. There are just times when it feels like I am whoring out my wife or my sister or something. Music deserves a place of honor in my life. Places where I've taken her where she was disrespected won't see her again.

I know it has a cost. I definitely limit my opportunities and have in many circumstances limited my rewards. But, me and music live pretty comfortably on the paycheck from my dayjob. We can afford to be choosy.

[Lee Knight]

Ok then. I think you're mistaken that I care much of what others think of me or what I do. It's not the same thing as asking other people why THEY care or expressing opinions about the subject. Like you've done here.

Not really. This is an age old issue for cover musicians. The lack of respect. My interaction with you is in no way similar. My point is... for the past 37 years I've heard cover musicians get their feelings hurt from the lack of respect. And I've heard original music players slam cover musicians. My point is not a personal slam against you, or against cover musicians. It's a old observation of mine.

If a hack writer chooses to make the kind of money he can make writing ad copy, or scripts for corporate video, or a What's Happening 'Round Town column for the local give away rag, they have by default set themselves up for criticism from a "serious" novelist. It seems to be part of the deal. To resent it is to resent rainy days. They just are. The cover musician earns the money, not the respect. The original artist earns the respect and not the money. We all know that.

We do get to choose.

BTW, I like the writing in that silly What's Happening 'Round Town column in the free paper.

[tim_7string]

Being a musician has been an honorable profession for centuries. For 99% of them, it has always involved some variation of banging on trash can lids or wearing a mickey mouse costume for money. Most didn't compose their own music, nor usually even have any choice in what music they performed. They found their joy through being able to use their skills competently--maybe even artistically--and be able to keep food on the table doing so. I suppose some people have always looked down on professional musicians as being ne'er do wells, but when did it start becoming acceptible for other musicians to do so? When did this attitude of "I only do what I want they way I want to do it, and I'd never sacrifice my art for MONEY, and those that do are somehow beneath me and if you're not doing it for the art, then you aren't doing anything worthwhile" become prevelant in the industry? Fine--play music for whatever reasons please you in whatever manner you choose---that's what it's all about (that's what most ANYthing in life is all about, really...) but to look down upon others with a "I'd never do THAT gig...or play THAT song...or put THAT on..." attitude? What's THAT all about?

Why is this always an issue with you? Let it go, man. Some people don't want to do what you do or what MartinC does and express it that way. Big deal. I know what I personally prefer to do and what I don't want to do. I could go into detail, but I won't.

[Vito Corleone]

Not really. This is an age old issue for cover musicians. The lack of respect. My interaction with you is in no way similar. My point is... for the past 37 years I've heard cover musicians get their feelings hurt from the lack of respect. And I've heard original music players slam cover musicians. My point is not a personal slam against you, or against cover musicians. It's a old observation of mine.

 

 

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking WHEN this attitude started becoming prevelant. Like I said, musicians have been making livings doing "covers" since the first piece of music was written on a sheet. If not long before.

 

And oddly, over the last couple of decades or so, it's not even just "original" musicians looking down on guys making money playing covers, it's other COVER guys who get snobby about which-songs-they-didn't-even-write that they choose to play. I mean....REALLY? How silly is THAT?

 

 

The cover musician earns the money, not the respect. The original artist earns the respect and not the money. We all know that.

 

 

Actually, no. We don't "all know that". I think a lot of original guys THINK they are earning respect rather than money, but most seem to be just as hopeless hacks as the cover guys are. And then many of them bemoan the fact that they can't make a living with their original music because the business sucks or the public sucks or whatever. Instead of maybe just concluding that maybe people don't really have enough respect for you what you do to pay for it and maybe THAT'S the reason why some original music make great livings and others don't.

 

Just because you choose--or are unable---to make money with your music doesn't necessarily make what you do any more respectful. But you knew that.

 

Just an observation.

[Vito Corleone]

I know what I personally prefer to do and what I don't want to do. I could go into detail, but I won't.

You already did. Like barely 15 posts ago. As you always do. You're usually good for a couple of long posts every day about what you do and won't do and why, Tim. In great detail. I don't tell you to not go on about what you like or dislike or or your opinions about what others think. But for me it's an issue I need to "let go"?

[tim_7string]

 

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking WHEN this attitude started becoming prevelant. Like I said, musicians have been making livings doing "covers" since the first piece of music was written on a sheet. If not long before.

 

 

Is it even prevalent? Or is it just on this board? Have you heard *more* musicians in recent years talk this way at the local supermarket or something? I dunno, for me, I have always heard people say "I like this kind of music, I'll do it," or "I don't care for this music, but I'll do it for X amount of money" and yes, those that say, "{censored} that {censored}, I'd NEVER play that crap!" I haven't noticed any real change 'lately' of when such an attitude has changed to become more negative.

[tim_7string]

You already did. Like barely 15 posts ago. As you always do. You're usually good for a couple of long posts every day about what you do and won't do and why, Tim. In great detail. I don't tell you to not go on about what you like or dislike or or your opinions about what others think. But for me it's an issue I need to "let go"?

 

It's an issue you need to let go, because, like many of your posts, you are coming from a place of condescension. "When did THAT happen?" "What's THAT all about?"

 

When did it ever NOT happen?

 

The way it's phrased, it sounds like you are saying no one has the right to talk about WHY they like to do something or not.

 

Hmm?

 

Answer me this: WHY is that a problem for YOU, reading about what others' opinions are? If you don't care, then don't pay it any mind. But it seems to really bother you for some reason.

 

Could it be because you somehow feel it's some sort of attack on you and you have to get defensive about it?

 

I'm not attacking YOU. I'm NOT you. You can do whatever you like for whatever reasons you do them. I can do the same. I like to explain why I do what I do and why I don't do other things. You have issue with that.

 

Seems weird.

[Vito Corleone]

Is it even prevalent? Or is it just on this board? Have you heard *more* musicians in recent years talk this way at the local supermarket or something? I dunno, for me, I have always heard people say "I like this kind of music, I'll do it," or "I don't care for this music, but I'll do it for X amount of money" and yes, those that say, "{censored} that {censored}, I'd NEVER play that crap!" I haven't noticed any real change 'lately' of when such an attitude has changed to become more negative.

Is it "prevelant"? I dunno. Depends on your defintion of "prevelant", I suppose. Have I heard "more" of it? Oh sure. I don't recall much disrespect for cover musicians at all in the 70s and 80s. Most of the original bands grew out of cover bands back then. And a gig was a gig. Most guys I knew respected the full time players on a certain level. And while I wasn't alive too much before then, I really just can't imagine George Gerswhin looking down on the guys who played his songs, or anybody elses, for money. That was part of how guys like him made a living. The guy who got a great gig playing in the orchestra for a broadway show was looked down upon by the "artists" because he played the same songs every night and maybe didn't even particularly like any of them personally? Really? Woody Guthrie was walking through Times Square thinking about how glad he was that he wasn't one of THOSE guys who sold their musical soul because they had to put on a tuxedo and play "Tea for Two" every night?

Maybe that IS how it was back then. Maybe I have a distorted view of the history of music.

[Vito Corleone]

It's an issue you need to let go, because, like many of your posts, you are coming from a place of condescension. "When did THAT happen?" "What's THAT all about?"

In reply to condescending posts.

Answer me this: WHY is that a problem for YOU, reading about what others' opinions are? If you don't care, then don't pay it any mind. But it seems to really bother you for some reason.

It doesn't. I'm not telling anyone not to post their opinion or to "let it go". I'm simply giving MY opinion in response. Kinda how things work on most internet forums. YOU'RE the one telling someone to not express their opinion and to "let it go". Not me.

[Vito Corleone]

I like to explain why I do what I do and why I don't do other things. You have issue with that.

 

 

When have I ever said I have an issue with you doing that? I simply pointed out that you did it. I just thought it was funny that you posted that you "could do it but wouldn't" when doing so comprises the vast majority of your posts its seems. But I've never told you to just "let it go", have I?

[tim_7string]

Is it "prevelant"? I dunno. Depends on your defintion of "prevelant", I suppose. Have I heard "more" of it? Oh sure. I don't recall much disrespect for cover musicians at all in the 70s and 80s. Most of the original bands grew out of cover bands back then. And a gig was a gig. Most guys I knew respected the full time players on a certain level. And while I wasn't alive too much before then, I really just can't imagine George Gerswhin looking down on the guys who played his songs, or anybody elses, for money. That was part of how guys like him made a living. The guy who got a great gig playing in the orchestra for a broadway show was looked down upon by the "artists" because he played the same songs every night and maybe didn't even particularly like any of them personally? Really? Woody Guthrie was walking through Times Square thinking about how glad he was that he wasn't one of THOSE guys who sold their musical soul because they had to put on a tuxedo and play "Tea for Two" every night? Maybe that IS how it was back then. Maybe I have a distorted view of the history of music.

 

I dunno, I've read magazines and books, seen movies and even heard from musicians I was related to or friends with when I was a kid and teenager (the 70s and 80s) where there was always someone talking about how they were better for not doing what so-and-so did. I'm sure Bob Dylan had fire in his belly and said, "I'm not going to do what those jerks think I should do, I'm going to do what *I* want to do." Thank God for that attitude or we wouldn't have his great songwriting genius in the lexicon of popular music.

 

Asking about why someone talks about why they don't want to do something is funny, because by their stating what they don't want to do, it shows part of the reason why they DO the things they do. People can't do everything, so choices have to be made. Some people are like, "Well, I like this music, but not this, so I'll play the first kind." Others, due to personality, passion or whatever, state it more forcefully as "I'm definitely not doing THAT!" In both cases, you get a sense that the person is focused. In the latter sense, I can see how it would offend *some* people (like yourself). But I can only see it really offending you if it applies to you and you are insecure about what you're doing in the first place. "Hey, I *resemble* that remark!!" Asking about *why* they act like that kind of misses the point. They act like that because they have a definite idea of what they will do and what they won't. Simple as that.

 

I'll let guido have the last remark (as always). Bring on the chinchillas!

[Vito Corleone]

I dunno, I've read magazines and books, seen movies and even heard from musicians I was related to or friends with when I was a kid and teenager (the 70s and 80s). There was always someone talking about how they were better for not doing what so-and-so did. I'm sure Bob Dylan had fire in his belly and said, "I'm not going to do what those jerks think I should do, I'm going to do what *I* want to do."

I'm sure he did. I just can't picture him looking down on the guys in The Band because they played cover songs instead of doing their own {censored}, you know? Or did they only earn his respect when they became willing to play the songs HE wrote?

Yeah, a lot of people talk about how they feel better for not doing what so-and-so did. Happens in all walks of life, not just music. Usually it comes from a place of their own insecurity. So people who do that might want to consider trying to reach towards being above it.

And, to be perfectly frank, I'd have little issue with listening to Dylan talk about what he would or would not do, because he's proven he can be successful with his choices. But the guys who just WISH they could be as successful with their choices? Nah. Just comes across as insecure to me...sorry.

Asking about why someone talks about why they don't want to do something is funny, because by their stating what they don't want to do, it shows part of the reason why they DO the things they do.

No it doesn't. It's just an observation.

People can't do everything, so choices have to be made. Some people are like, "Well, I like this music, but not this, so I'll play the first kind." Others, due to personality, passion or whatever, state it more forcefully as "I'm definitely not doing THAT!" In both cases, you get a sense that the person is focused. In the latter sense, I can see how it would offend *some* people (like yourself). But I can only see it really offending you if it applies to you and you are insecure about what you're doing in the first place. "Hey, I *resemble* that remark!!"

That's pretty backwards. Seems to me the defensive and insecure one is the person putting others down in the FIRST place.

[Lee Knight]

If your idea of a cover band is The Band...

[Vito Corleone]

If your idea of a cover band is The Band...

They started out playing other people's music, didn't they?

[Lee Knight]

They started out playing other people's music, didn't they?

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. You're trying to equate cover bands with The Band? WTF? There is no shame in being in a cover band. But you are pretending it is something that it isn't. Let's be realistic here. I absolutely agree that playing covers is a viable road for a musician. One that I rode, as you know, for a good while. But to think of the world of cover bands like, "Well, The Beatles played covers and The Band played covers... therefore I am owed the respect of The Band!"

It doesn't work that way. You can want it to, but it ain't gonna happen.

So that's my point. I guess maybe I should shut up and not point out the futility of what you're saying. Because I then in turn am hoping you'll see this a different way and that appears futile. but understand this, I'm not downing anything, I'm only pointing out that for me personally, resenting the lack of respect isn't worth it. If that matters to you, do something you know that will gain you respect instead of wishing it never rained or there were no bad days..

[Vito Corleone]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. You're trying to equate cover bands with The Band? .

No, I was simply trying to point out that I doubt Dylan actually has disdain for those who play other people's music or work as professional musicians doing so instead of writing their own "art". The Band was just a backing band for some other dude when he ran across then, IIRC, and then he hired them to be such.

But to think of the world of cover bands like, "Well, The Beatles played covers and The Band played covers... therefore I am owed the respect of The Band!"

No one has said that, I don't think. But similarly, to suggest that one only plays their own original music, or only plays covers that they personally believe have a certain degree of artistic merit doesn't earn them the respect of Dylan either, does it?

I'm only pointing out that for me personally, resenting the lack of respect isn't worth it

I got that point the first time you made it. Problem is, I'm not resenting anyone. I'm not complaining that there is a lack of respect. Just noting that it exists and therefore I questioned it. I'm just giving an opinion based on observations. I've already stated that. But if you feel the need to keep believing that I do even though I've already told you otherwise....

If that matters to you, do something you know that will gain you respect instead of wishing it never rained or there were no bad days..

Doesn't seem to me that I'm the one here complaining about rainy days in the music business or that I'll never agree to playing for money if I've got to put a pair of galloshes to do so, but whatever...

[Lee Knight]

No, I was simply trying to point out that I doubt Dylan actually has disdain for those who play other people's music or work as professional musicians doing so instead of writing their own "art". The Band was just a backing band for some other dude when he ran across then, IIRC, and then he hired them to be such. No one has said that, I don't think. But similarly, to suggest that one only plays their own original music, or only plays covers that they personally believe have a certain degree of artistic merit doesn't earn them the respect of Dylan either, does it? I got that point the first time you made it. Problem is, I'm not resenting anyone. I'm not complaining that there is a lack of respect. Just noting that it exists and therefore I questioned it. I'm just giving an opinion based on observations. I've already stated that. But if you feel the need to keep believing that I do even though I've already told you otherwise....

OK... then I misread your post. Sorry about that.

[toddkuen]

... Yeah, a lot of people talk about how they feel better for not doing what so-and-so did. Happens in all walks of life, not just music. Usually it comes from a place of their own insecurity. So people who do that might want to consider trying to reach towards being above it. And, to be perfectly frank, I'd have little issue with listening to Dylan talk about what he would or would not do, because he's proven he can be successful with his choices. But the guys who just WISH they could be as successful with their choices? Nah. Just comes across as insecure to me...sorry. ...

 

By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative...

 

I'm successful in life because I do what other people don't.

 

I make a living outside music with creativity. Making a simple copy of what someone else has done (musically or otherwise) doesn't interest me.

[MartinC]

True Tim,

Everyone has their own line in the sand. I was playing with a band that was opening for huge acts like Linda Ronstat, Santana, etc. and then I started doing solo gigs playing flamenco guitar. The band got maybe 50-100 a man per gig and the solo gigs payed an average of 500.00

I took a solo gig only to find out the band got a festival gig the same day. I was earning a decent living at my day gig, but the 1-2k a month I was getting for playing made a huge difference as to what I could provide for the wife and kids. I caught a lot of flack for doing the solo gig, and it was a step towards making the money a real part of gigging. I'd always done paying gigs, but the money was always just enough to cover expenses of the gig itself-by the time you factored in the gear, the gas, the time, I wasn't really making any money. But at 500. a gig, I was making money. And i was playing music I loved. The fact that I was playing society gigs, corporates, and weddings did not tip the balance towards the band. I like the music I was playing more than the band's music. They were doing cooler gigs, but i was playing better music. That was the deciding factor. The money was gravy.

 

Once I realized I could earn that kind of money playing, it seemed like that would be the way to go. I put together a trio, and after several years working our way up, we found the band doing the same sort of gigs for the same kind of money per man. I completely understand why a guy would not want to do this kind of work. But I'm 54 years old, and I spent many years playing clubs for gas and gear money.

 

So what's my line in the sand? Playing music I don't like. Paying to play. Playing for nothing. Playing with weak musicians. Hauling tons of gear. Being expected to bring a crowd to a gig. Getting home at 3am. Doing promotion. And a whole lot more. The list gets longer the older I get.

 

Did I get pushed out of shape by the treatment we got at the gig in the OP? No, go back and read it. We were amused if anything. That crap happens in one form or another on many corporate gigs. You just keep playing and keep smiling. As I recall, there's all kinds of BS playing clubs too. Creepy managers, drunks, etc. Main difference to me is the $.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is this always an issue with you? Let it go, man. Some people don't want to do what you do or what MartinC does and express it that way. Big deal. I know what I personally prefer to do and what I don't want to do. I could go into detail, but I won't.

 

[tim_7string]

By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative... I'm successful in life because I do what other people don't. I make a living outside music with creativity. Making a simple copy of what someone else has done (musically or otherwise) doesn't interest me.

I get what you're saying, but actually, we wouldn't have ANY music whatsoever. There would be people telling the creative person "That sucks" and their insecurity would take over, they'd agree "yeah, I guess it kinda does," and perhaps one of the greatest songs EVER would be killed before it was even began. I do agree though, if people suddenly collectively decided that they could not create new music to ever match the previous works before that music would be dead and there would be no new music. The proliferation of tribute bands makes me wonder if that is indeed the future. As much as I like tribute bands, man, I hope not...

My approach to music is as a creative outlet. The structure is covers, the contents within are passion and creativity. It seems like a lot of bands don't really approach the music that way, they just play what they've always played. When it gets exciting is when they take chances with it, even if they are 'just' covers.

[Vito Corleone]

By this standard there would never by any new music - ONLY covers - because all of us insecure people would just do covers instead of anything creative...

Well, THAT'S an odd mis-perception of what I've been talking about. What does talking about one feeling superior doing what they do vs. what somebody else does have to do with creativity? I don't get the connection.

Guthrie or Dylan or whoever were incapable of writing and performing his own music without having to express his disdain for guys who played in Broadway shows to do so? I seriously doubt that would be the case.