Gorillas in a cage-playing for the 1%

[Ku'Yleh]

If you werent such a noob youd realise that the chick playing bongos with her ass really wants to be plowed by a dirty, cheap, poor ass musician.

 

They read that {censored} all day long in "romance" novels. You are the help, and a dirty scoundrel musician., She TOTALLY wanted you to plow that ass like it was a corn field.

[Miko Man]

 

It's Weezer, our tabby who recently left this dimension. She made it to 18 though, pretty good run.

 

 

My condolences. I recently had an elderly cat cross the rainbow bridge. He had a darn good run too. Mark C.

[rangefinder]

C'mon, that "union power" analysis is ridiculously simplistic.

 

We're never going to see powerful unions again because the same progress in technology that made them possible (large, complex organizations and hugely diverse markets) has now undermined them completely (near-frictionless information and unprecedented consumer choice).

 

If anyone "protects" the workers, it'll be government regulation, not a bunch of union bosses negotiating work rules with individual businesses.

 

Unless, of course, everything blows up and we end up back in a 19-th century economy.

[BATCAT]

 

My condolences. I recently had an elderly cat cross the rainbow bridge. He had a darn good run too. Mark C.

 

 

Thanks for that. gets better but the absence is weird as I'm sure you know.

[Vito Corleone]

 

the presence of labor unions in America was a good balancing influence for decades and probably kept us from a full scale shift to Communism following the Soviets. But the sad truth is labor unions in America have declined for good reason, mostly corruption as stated in your quote. Fix the corruption first then talk to me about saving the workers.

 

 

They decline mostly because their own success makes them (appear to be) obsolete. When the rest of the non-union workers in an industry are working under decent wages and working conditions due to the previous efforts of the union, the prevailing wisdom becomes "well, what do we need unions for? I've got most of everything they've got without having to join one!"

 

Then the unions will go away, working conditions will decline, and the cycle will repeat.

 

But look at the trajectory of real-dollar wages over the last 30 years and compare with the decline in union membership and see if you think it's just a coincidence or not.

[BlueStrat]

 

But look at the trajectory of real-dollar wages over the last 30 years and compare with the decline in union membership and see if you think it's just a coincidence or not.

 

 

it's all relative. You can't have everyone in a union and then pay 100 dollars for a shirt. Unions have been successful because not everyone is in one. If they were, nobody would be able to keep up with inflation.

[MartinC]

Yeah, gigging since 1975 and I'm the noob. And it was a conga, not a bongo nimrod. She was looking pretty good for an older broad.............but I was not

 

 

 

If you werent such a noob youd realise that the chick playing bongos with her ass really wants to be plowed by a dirty, cheap, poor ass musician. They read that {censored} all day long in "romance" novels. You are the help, and a dirty scoundrel musician., She TOTALLY wanted you to plow that ass like it was a corn field.

[Vito Corleone]

 

it's all relative. You can't have everyone in a union and then pay 100 dollars for a shirt. Unions have been successful because not everyone is in one. If they were, nobody would be able to keep up with inflation.

 

 

Then we better keep wages as low as possible so prices and inflation are low?

 

That just becomes a race to the bottom. We used to buy (what would have been then) 100 dollar shirts. But they lasted longer. And we didn't all feel we needed a hundred of them in our closet. We used to value quality clothing. Now we value a 'bargain'. So they sell us cheaper shirts by paying less for labor and less for people to sell them to us. But they make it up in volume.

 

Lower wages and poorer quality clothing for us, but WalMart is still making plenty of money. It works on a different level, but I don't think it's all relative.

[rangefinder]

^^^ IDK I'm old enough to remember some expensive yet truly crappy cars created by our dedicated, focused union labor, back when they had all the power. I'll pass on going back to that world.

 

As far as shirts, you can find nearly any price/quality point you want, from dozens of different sources, including some truly attractive and durable shirts for under $10. I don't remember THAT ever being the case in, say, 1978, even in today's dollars.

 

Yeah, you can bemoan the loss of middle-class jobs. But I'm living pretty damn well, relatively speaking, on not very much money, and can forge my own path through life, for better or worse. I don't want to go back to the days of ossification.

[BlueStrat]

 

Then we better keep wages as low as possible so prices and inflation are low? That just becomes a race to the bottom. We used to buy (what would have been then) 100 dollar shirts. But they lasted longer. And we didn't all feel we needed a hundred of them in our closet. We used to value quality clothing. Now we value a 'bargain'. So they sell us cheaper shirts by paying less for labor and less for people to sell them to us. But they make it up in volume. Lower wages and poorer quality clothing for us, but WalMart is still making plenty of money. It works on a different level, but I don't think it's all relative.

 

 

No, that'as not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the principle of economic nullification. I'm saying that if everyone made a "living wage", the price of everything would necessarily have to rise to cover the cost of labor to make it and we'd be about right where we are now. Economies reach balance based on supply and demand of both labor and materials. So yes, it's relative. Unions are an artificial wage control that disregards market forces and creates an imbalance. As long as the imbalance is low, it benefits unions and their members, because there are still enough lower paid workers to keep prices low. The more people who become unionized, the more the imbalance.

 

Anyway, this is way off topic and I won't further it. I expect to see a chinchilla soon.

 

The idea that you can have universal high wages and low prices is a fantasy. The biggest cost of almost any business is labor. Right now, about 12% of the work force is union, and that's great for them, because it's a low imbalance ratio. It gives them an edge in buying power, but whenever I go to WalMart, or Best Buy, or Fred Mayer, I see lots of "union made is best!" bumper stickers in the parking lot. Seems guys in unions want low prices, too. If the folks at WalMart all made 18 bucks an hour, and all their employees all along the supply chain did, say goodbye to the low prices. That's all I'm saying.

 

The same principle applies with minimum wage. Whenever minimum wage is raised, prices soon rise to cover the cost of it to employers, so any raise is nullified by the resultant inflation.

 

Anyway, we'e WAY off topic here and I expect to see a chinchilla soon!

[Lee Knight]

You guys are way too smart.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The same principle applies with minimum wage. Whenever minimum wage is raised, prices soon rise to cover the cost of it to employers, so any raise is nullified by the resultant inflation.

 

 

It's all about supply and demand, and labor supply almost always exceeds demand except in a few highly-specialized fields. We see that with music. Bands get paid {censored} because there are so damned many of them willing to work for less just to be able to work at all. Without minimum wages and other artificial floors, everyone would be making $1 an hour or some such. Sure, rising wages drives up prices somewhat, but minimum wage increases haven't even kept up with inflation, so the idea that they have caused it doesn't make any sense. If the minimum wage in 1968 were set for inflation it would be $10.55 today.

 

What I see more is a cycle where the economy is pretty good, so the employer raises prices by $1, the employees say "well, then give us 50 cents of that" and then the employer says "well, in that case I need to raise prices ANOTHER 50 cents to cover it!"

 

The gap between the rich and poor is widening, not narrowing. The guys at the top have kept up with inflation just fine. The rest of us?...not so much... Trickle down? Well, SOMETHING has been tricking down on us for sure....

[Vito Corleone]

 

You guys are way too smart.

 

 

You're not allowed to bring your own chinchilla.

[Lee Knight]

You're not allowed to bring your own chinchilla.

 

[BlueStrat]

 

You guys are way too smart.

 

 

 

My dad used to say, "well, either you're a smart feller, or a fart smeller, only time will tell which."

[cephus]

Let me go on record that I wouldn't stand on the corner and bang on a garbage can lid with a stick for $400. Nor would I wear a mickey mouse costume. Nor would I stand on the corner twirling a sign for "First month's rent free".

 

Being a musician doesn't pay {censored}. I'm sorry, but if I were only playing music for money, I'd probably have no insurance and be making what I did at my day job in 1999 - if that.

 

But, I value my craft. The reason why I am good is tied directly to my personality. My decisions to sacrifice what I needed to so that I would get to be a better musician. That means that I am 100% willing to give up that country club paycheck to not serve people who more often than not disrespect and/or devalue something that I hold dear.

 

I get that there are people here that have a different personality. I am sure that they could be fabulous musicians. But I can't really get behind eating a {censored} sandwich for a paycheck and then claiming that you do it because you are a gourmet. That whole banging a garbage can lid thing just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Sorry to interrupt your discussion about unions.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'm sorry, but if I were only playing music for money, I'd probably have no insurance and be making what I did at my day job in 1999 - if that.

 

 

What's your day job?

[BlueStrat]

 

Let me go on record that I wouldn't stand on the corner and bang on a garbage can lid with a stick for $400. Nor would I wear a mickey mouse costume. Nor would I stand on the corner twirling a sign for "First month's rent free". Being a musician doesn't pay {censored}. I'm sorry, but if I were only playing music for money, I'd probably have no insurance and be making what I did at my day job in 1999 - if that. But, I value my craft. The reason why I am good is tied directly to my personality. My decisions to sacrifice what I needed to so that I would get to be a better musician. That means that I am 100% willing to give up that country club paycheck to not serve people who more often than not disrespect and/or devalue something that I hold dear. I get that there are people here that have a different personality. I am sure that they could be fabulous musicians. But I can't really get behind eating a {censored} sandwich for a paycheck and then claiming that you do it because you are a gourmet. That whole banging a garbage can lid thing just rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry to interrupt your discussion about unions.

 

 

+1000

[jeff42]

Let me go on record that I wouldn't stand on the corner and bang on a garbage can lid with a stick for $400.

 

Some nights that's exactly what it sounds like I am doing... I just wish it was for $400.

 

but I'm a drummer.

[tim_7string]

 

Let me go on record that I wouldn't stand on the corner and bang on a garbage can lid with a stick for $400. Nor would I wear a mickey mouse costume. Nor would I stand on the corner twirling a sign for "First month's rent free". Being a musician doesn't pay {censored}. I'm sorry, but if I were only playing music for money, I'd probably have no insurance and be making what I did at my day job in 1999 - if that. But, I value my craft. The reason why I am good is tied directly to my personality. My decisions to sacrifice what I needed to so that I would get to be a better musician. That means that I am 100% willing to give up that country club paycheck to not serve people who more often than not disrespect and/or devalue something that I hold dear. I get that there are people here that have a different personality. I am sure that they could be fabulous musicians. But I can't really get behind eating a {censored} sandwich for a paycheck and then claiming that you do it because you are a gourmet. That whole banging a garbage can lid thing just rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry to interrupt your discussion about unions.

 

 

This is how I feel too, for the most part.

 

It's all about choices. If you decide to make music your number one priority, then that is your priority. If I had to desperately play every gig I could, 7 days a week, trios, solos, duos, fill-ins...gigs I would hate with every fiber of my being but hey, my rent is paid for and I can eat a halfway decent meal twice today, I wouldn't care for that too much. I did that for a while in 1989 and again in 2005-2006 as a 'full-time musician.' After years of experience doing the day job thing and being a college student, it was a real struggle and I started to hate it.

 

I'd rather work a boring 8 hour/day job (with benefits, very important the older I get and the more stuff goes wrong with me), have a rewarding couple of hours after the day job teaching guitar and a few hours on some weekends fronting and leading my own band the way I want it than to be at the mercy of other people that decide when they will pay me or when they won't.

 

Students and parents of students cancel all the time. If I had to live off of that money, I'd be malnourished or dead. I'd have to live with several roommates just to have a place to sleep. I probably wouldn't be married and if I did have a girlfriend, she'd have to be a girl with a great paying job and I'd be a parasite living off of her.

 

Same with some gigs. It just isn't enough money to live on. I'd have to target the big $$$ gigs and eat a whole lot of crap just to deal with it. I'd probably get depressed enough to want to end it all after a while.

 

The FT day job/lessons PT with gigs on weekends works best for me. YMMV.

[Vito Corleone]

Being a musician has been an honorable profession for centuries. For 99% of them, it has always involved some variation of banging on trash can lids or wearing a mickey mouse costume for money. Most didn't compose their own music, nor usually even have any choice in what music they performed. They found their joy through being able to use their skills competently--maybe even artistically--and be able to keep food on the table doing so.

 

I suppose some people have always looked down on professional musicians as being ne'er do wells, but when did it start becoming acceptible for other musicians to do so? When did this attitude of "I only do what I want they way I want to do it, and I'd never sacrifice my art for MONEY, and those that do are somehow beneath me and if you're not doing it for the art, then you aren't doing anything worthwhile" become prevelant in the industry?

 

Fine--play music for whatever reasons please you in whatever manner you choose---that's what it's all about (that's what most ANYthing in life is all about, really...) but to look down upon others with a "I'd never do THAT gig...or play THAT song...or put THAT on..." attitude? What's THAT all about?

[SpaceNorman]

 

Let me go on record that I wouldn't stand on the corner and bang on a garbage can lid with a stick for $400. Nor would I wear a mickey mouse costume. Nor would I stand on the corner twirling a sign for "First month's rent free". Being a musician doesn't pay {censored}. I'm sorry, but if I were only playing music for money, I'd probably have no insurance and be making what I did at my day job in 1999 - if that. But, I value my craft. The reason why I am good is tied directly to my personality. My decisions to sacrifice what I needed to so that I would get to be a better musician. That means that I am 100% willing to give up that country club paycheck to not serve people who more often than not disrespect and/or devalue something that I hold dear. I get that there are people here that have a different personality. I am sure that they could be fabulous musicians. But I can't really get behind eating a {censored} sandwich for a paycheck and then claiming that you do it because you are a gourmet. That whole banging a garbage can lid thing just rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry to interrupt your discussion about unions.

 

 

I understand your point - and I get the whole money isn't everything - there are some things I won't do just to get a paycheck perspective. I agree wholeheartedly - there are things I am unwilling to compromise simply to get a paycheck myself.

 

However, the bull{censored} that comes with even the worst band gigs is normally not even close to what I consider to be my personal "lines in the sand".

 

Client demanded wardrobe - such as tuxes, jacket and tie, etc.? Sure, I'd rather be in jeans, t-shirts and tennis shoes ... but for $300, I don't mind giving the client what they ask for. When I worked for Uncle Sam I wore his uniform, when I worked for MacDonald's I wore their uniform. When I play country club gigs - it's no big deal to wear their uniform.

 

Dealing with folks who don't respect me? The truth of the matter is - the folks I play for don't care enough one way or the other to respect or disrespect me personally. I'm of the opinion that any treatment that I receive that could be construed as disrespectful can most likely be attributed to the "disrespectful" party simply being a self-centered asshole at the core. Every job I've ever worked included dealing with folks who were self-centered assholes which came with the turf. I can ignore their bull{censored} for the few hours they're going to be in my life.

 

All the little {censored} ... such as the no mingling, no drinking, no meals, no tents, rules that make load-ins / load-outs more difficult than they absolutely need to be sort of {censored}. I take that crap in stride ... every paycheck I've ever earned had at least some level of bull{censored} rules that had to be followed in order to keep the paychecks coming. I figure that $300 for 180 minutes of music equates to roughly a 6 hour gig which translates to $50 an hour. $50 an hour to do something that I really love doing - isn't much of a hardship at all. Not mingling with guests, having to stroll to the parking lot if I want a drink, not having a meal provided, not having a tent over my head and/or schlepping my gear a little farther isn't all that big of a deal.

 

I'd like to think that when I draw a "line in the sand" - it's about stuff that really matters. No amount of money will tempt me to lie, cheat or steal. I won't be taking any gigs where I'm expected to intentionally hurt people - regardless of the size of the paycheck. But having a client expect that I play music "in the open" with too much sun on my head? OK ... I'll deal with that. If those are my BIG problems ... I figure I ain't got no problems at all!

[Lee Knight]

Being a musician has been an honorable profession for centuries. For 99% of them, it has always involved some variation of banging on trash can lids or wearing a mickey mouse costume for money. Most didn't compose their own music, nor usually even have any choice in what music they performed. They found their joy through being able to use their skills competently--maybe even artistically--and be able to keep food on the table doing so. I suppose some people have always looked down on professional musicians as being ne'er do wells, but when did it start becoming acceptible for other musicians to do so? When did this attitude of "I only do what I want they way I want to do it, and I'd never sacrifice my art for MONEY, and those that do are somehow beneath me" become prevelant in the industry? Fine--play music for whatever reasons please you in whatever manner you choose---that's what it's all about (that's what most ANYthing is life is all about, really...) but to look down upon others with a "I'd never do THAT gig...or play THAT song...or put THAT on..." attitude? What's THAT all about?

 

What does it matter that somebody looks down on you? You make your choices for your own reasons. What is to be gained by resenting another musican looking down his nose at you. If you are truly committed and confident in your choices, why would it rub?

 

I never enjoyed playing weddings or any sort of corporate gig. Hated it. But, in turn, I've never resented anybody else putting food on their table. But when some insecure musician does look down his nose at what others choose to do... who gives a rat's ass?

 

Seriously. You get your 2 or 3 hundred bucks. That's the deal you made. But resenting a musician who judges your choice? Just as it's your right to play the kind of gig you want, it is his right to see that as a compromise and judge you. And ultimately, who cares? You can say, "Oh, I don't care what they think." But the natural tendency is to care. The not so natural, and in my mind the smart thing to do, is to not give a damn. To truly not give a damn.

[Vito Corleone]

 

What does it matter that somebody looks down on you? You make your choices for your own reasons. What is to be gained by resenting another musican looking down his nose at you. If you are truly committed and confident in your choices, why would it rub?

 

 

Why does it rub them that others do certain things for money and they have to look down their noses at it and state it publically? I'm just stating MY view. If they can state an opinion about how they feel about an entire class of musicians, so can I, right?

 

 

Seriously.You get your 2 or 3 hundred bucks. That's the deal you made. But resenting a musician who judges your choice? Just as it's your right to play the kind of gig you want, it is his right to see that as a compromise and judge you. And ultimately, who cares?

 

 

Because, I'd LIKE to think that, at least on SOME level, we're all in this together or at least on the same side.

[Lee Knight]

Because, I'd LIKE to think that, at least on SOME level, we're all in this together or at least on the same side.

 

But what you LIKE to think and what somebody else LIKES to think aren't the same. So... care if you what to, and of course you can, but I prefer not to. I admit it's not easy, but the honest truth, I've worked hard at learning how to not give {censored} about other's opinion of my choices.

 

I highly recommend it!